Comandante Raul Reyes Murdered!

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: Roxdog You make very little sense. Your tired cliches don't negate the fact. Karl Marx was a joke and so is anyone that takes him or his corporate backers the slightest bit seriously... Your philosphy is fascist. How ironic...

Firstly, you make these statements yet offer no evidence to support them. For example, please provide some evidence that socialism, or communism which is a socialist ideology, are 'fascist'.

Secondly, the sad irony of it is that you have yourself down as a 'libertarian', but hardly anybody (off the internet that is) takes libertarians remotely serious. You guys are rather like communists yourselves, in that you are unsupported and on the political fringes with relatively extreme ideals.

[Roxdog]

Whatever. Invoking the majority impresses no one.

"Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers the individual subordinate to the interests of the state"

Get a clue :)

[Matt W]

Roxdog, I suggest you drop the personal comments from now on. Re-read the rules.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: Roxdog Whatever. Invoking the majority impresses no one. "Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers the individual subordinate to the interests of the state" Get a clue :)

That definition you have provided is firstly woefully incomplete and it doesn't in any way show that communism is fascism. That non-response doesn't impress me.

[USSRv2]

Quote by: Roxdog Whatever. Invoking the majority impresses no one. "Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers the individual subordinate to the interests of the state" Get a clue :)

Communism doesn't consider the individual subordinate to the state. It considers the individual part of the state, and the state above all else. While Communism can said to have been authoritarian (And yes, i realize even the people i admire on some points - Lenin, Che, Fidel - were dictators on others.) it is, at is base, a democratic movement. While Trotsky was most certantly not right, he definitively had the best on Stalin in defining Communism - because he placed democracy higher.

"Democracy is essential to Communism"
V.L Lenin
"Democracy is the road to Socialism"
Karl Marx

I consider Marx and Lenin rather big authorities on Communist ideology, so i think you should mark those words.

Quote by: Chris the Chees Firstly, you make these statements yet offer no evidence to support them. For example, please provide some evidence that socialism, or communism which is a socialist ideology, are 'fascist'. Secondly, the sad irony of it is that you have yourself down as a 'libertarian', but hardly anybody (off the internet that is) takes libertarians remotely serious. You guys are rather like communists yourselves, in that you are unsupported and on the political fringes with relatively extreme ideals.

Heh. I'm pleased you at least recognize the value of intelligent debate - on topics you disagree with no less - but i have to say i disagree. While Communists might be "unsupported" in the US, that is rather untrue about large - huge - parts around the world. And since the earlier Communist movements were undemocratic - and thus doomed to failure - those of today are mostly democratic. You should read my article,
Verge Of the Revolution. on exactly the topic of the so-called "death of Communism". Frankly, it's Bullshit. :)

[Chris the Chees]

While Communists might be "unsupported" in the US, that is rather untrue about large - huge - parts around the world.

Communism is dead, at least for now, in the Third world in addition to the First. The supposedly 'communist' countries that still exist have long since begun to adopt capitalism; China being the most obvious example.

The list of nations you provide from the website is actually incomplete, but they are still a vast minority. I would also say that FARC long since ceased being Marxist; and the others are minorities. I'm not saying that this is going to be the case forever, but that is the way I see it now. I can't see 'revolution' occuring in my lifetime.

PS, we don't really like 'bad' language on this forum, it is designed to be viewed by everyone and expletives cause sites to be blocked, especially at schools, etc.

[Morality Games]

Riiight, when your world view causes bad things to happen, or you simply don't like the outcome, just move the goalposts and say they aren't "true" socialist, whatever the hell that means.

It is worth noting that every worldview has had proponets who vary in their manner of thinking and going about things. Or is there no difference between Social Darwinist and laissez-faire / libertarian approaches to capitalism? So I should think of you in terms of a Social Darwinist?

I would contend that everyone "moves the goal posts", or rather, "draws up lines" to differentiate their way of thinking and going about things from other varieties.

Communism is dead, at least for now, in the Third world in addition to the First. The supposedly 'communist' countries that still exist have long since begun to adopt capitalism; China being the most obvious example. The list of nations you provide from the website is actually incomplete, but they are still a vast minority. I would also say that FARC long since ceased being Marxist; and the others are minorities. I'm not saying that this is going to be the case forever, but that is the way I see it now. I can't see 'revolution' occuring in my lifetime.

This reflects my thoughts on the matter as well.

[Roxdog]

Quote by: Chris the Chees That definition you have provided is firstly woefully incomplete and it doesn't in any way show that communism is fascism. That non-response doesn't impress me.

Ha....hilarious. It isn't incomplete. If it were you would tell us what is missing. But you don't.

I know you would like to think Fascism= Nazis, but that simply isn't reality. The definition I posted explains why you people are fascist. Covering up the word "fascist" with "socialist", "democratic socialist", "Insert Meaningless Phrase", changes exactly nothing.

Communism is dead, at least for now, in the Third world in addition to the First. The supposedly 'communist' countries that still exist have long since begun to adopt capitalism; China being the most obvious example.

Nope. Wrong as usual. "Communism" is alive and well and has always worked hand in hand with "Capitalism". Its freedom vs slavery, not "communism vs capitalism". It is People That Want to Be Free VS Elitists that seek to comman and control them.

[Roxdog]

Quote by: USSRv2 Communism doesn't consider the individual subordinate to the state. It considers the individual part of the state, and the state above all else. While Communism can said to have been authoritarian (And yes, i realize even the people i admire on some points - Lenin, Che, Fidel - were dictators on others.) it is, at is base, a democratic movement. While Trotsky was most certantly not right, he definitively had the best on Stalin in defining Communism - because he placed democracy higher. "Democracy is essential to Communism" V.L Lenin "Democracy is the road to Socialism" Karl Marx

No. Address the assertion that so-called "capitalists" are the ones that created and bankrolled the communist revolution. This is a fact. If you have some info that negates this FACT, please post it. Simply repeating what other people want you to to think isn't addressing the facts. Lenin: Funded and bankrolled by the West. FACT.

[GHook93]

Quote by: USSRv2 The Worker's Online: In Honor of Raul Reyes This is my article on the death of Comandante Raul Reyes - second in Command of the FARC. The Columbian cowards killed him in his sleep, when he was sleeping in territory presumed safe. The Columbian course of action has lead to President Hugo Chavez mobilizing his troops, to protect Ecuadorian and Columbian Freedom. Hugo Chavez moves his tanks to border as regional war looms - Times Online

The man deserved far worse. There should be no safe place for scum like him! His death actually man the world a better place!

[Morality Games]

No. Address the assertion that so-called "capitalists" are the ones that created and bankrolled the communist revolution. This is a fact. If you have some info that negates this FACT, please post it. Simply repeating what other people want you to to think isn't addressing the facts. Lenin: Funded and bankrolled by the West. FACT.

Who needs to negate the fact? We just think you need to broaden your view on basis of other considerations. You are up-playing the importance of this single fact in history (of a whole set of facts). If you want to be an ardent critic of communism, then you need to understand the whole movement from beginninng until contemporary times.

Whatever. Invoking the majority impresses no one.

The problem with ideologies like libertarianism and communism is that their arguments are sweeping, idealizing, and have no room for internalized uncertainty. Ideologies invariably encourage surreal ways of considering the world and install the worst kind of confidence in your own correctness: dogmatic dedication to a certain set of propositions, deductions, and conclusions. Everything must be correct or nothing can be correct, all that is alien must be regulated to the status of evil and destroyed, no compromise or peace, remorsely misinterpret every bit of information you can get your hands on, only search for and hold in high regard information that appears to confirm your view, disdain all other information, never have any respect for any person that disagrees, close your mind and heart, etc. Those are all typical features of ideology.

They are very unlike philosophies, which usuallly include (implicitly or explicitly) an ironic element which allows them to acknowledge, in spite of how realistic they sound, that any of their arguments could be fallicious from top down. Philosophies are tentative and practical -- ideologies are always made to appear like indisputable truth that only an evil person could disagree with, which produces all sorts of weird psychological blocks and imperatives in the minds of their adherents (positions on history, politics, and ethics which appear irrational to philosophical sorts)

[USSRv2]

Quote by: Roxdog No. Address the assertion that so-called "capitalists" are the ones that created and bankrolled the communist revolution. This is a fact. If you have some info that negates this FACT, please post it. Simply repeating what other people want you to to think isn't addressing the facts. Lenin: Funded and bankrolled by the West. FACT.

Funded perhaps: Sponsorship came from the Germans. But who ended up defeating the Germans in WW2? The Russians they had funded. Same situation with Comandante Reyes. There really is no need to discriminate who gives the money as long as they are used for good.

Quote by: Morality Games The problem with ideologies like libertarianism and communism is that their arguments are sweeping, idealizing, and have no room for internalized uncertainty. Ideologies invariably encourage surreal ways of considering the world and install the worst kind of confidence in your own correctness: dogmatic dedication to a certain set of propositions, deductions, and conclusions. Everything must be correct or nothing can be correct, all that is alien must be regulated to the status of evil and destroyed, no compromise or peace, remorselessly misinterpret every bit of information you can get your hands on, only search for and hold in high regard information that appears to confirm your view, disdain all other information, never have any respect for any person that disagrees, close your mind and heart, etc. Those are all typical features of ideology.

I refuse to think of Scientific Marxism-Leninism as surreal. The arguments presented in Das Kapital is excellent - certainly not surreal. The twisting of fact belonged in the Soviet area. Today there is nothing wrong with admitting some failures of the past - especially since those committed by Capitalism are far more numerous, and far more terrible, and nobody ever confessed to them - or gave them a black book.

Quote by: Morality Games They are very unlike philosophies, which usuallly include (implicitly or explicitly) an ironic element which allows them to acknowledge, in spite of how realistic they sound, that any of their arguments could be fallicious from top down. Philosophies are tentative and practical -- ideologies are always made to appear like indisputable truth that only an evil person could disagree with, which produces all sorts of weird psychological blocks and imperatives in the minds of their adherents (positions on history, politics, and ethics which appear irrational to philosophical sorts)

I don't see any ironic element in Marxism-Leninism. Any argument could be incorrect? Highly, but it is so for every single ideology, every single idea on the face of the planet. Everything we think we know could be wrong. You don't have to be evil to stand against a certain ideology. You are only evil if you have no moral considerations about your actions.

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: Roxdog Ha....hilarious. It isn't incomplete. If it were you would tell us what is missing. But you don't. I know you would like to think Fascism= Nazis, but that simply isn't reality. The definition I posted explains why you people are fascist. Covering up the word "fascist" with "socialist", "democratic socialist", "Insert Meaningless Phrase", changes exactly nothing. Nope. Wrong as usual. "Communism" is alive and well and has always worked hand in hand with "Capitalism". Its freedom vs slavery, not "communism vs capitalism". It is People That Want to Be Free VS Elitists that seek to comman and control them.

If it were you would tell us what is missing.

Or rather constructing a real analysis of fascism would take far too long; the subject is after all the subject of multiple lengthy volumes. But to begin with a few obvious examples: -

Try the economic model of fascism (Corporatism); violent nationalistic tendancies; rabid anti-communism; identification of group scapegoats; military supremacy; combination of religion and ruling class; utter distain for democracy; etc.

I could go on all day.

I know you would like to think Fascism= Nazis, but that simply isn't reality.

And Roxdog contradicts the entire community of academic historians once again.

The definition I posted explains why you people are fascist.

No, it explains that you know nothing about communism, socialism and fascism.

[Morality Games]

I refuse to think of Scientific Marxism-Leninism as surreal. The arguments presented in Das Kapital is excellent - certainly not surreal. The twisting of fact belonged in the Soviet area. Today there is nothing wrong with admitting some failures of the past - especially since those committed by Capitalism are far more numerous, and far more terrible, and nobody ever confessed to them - or gave them a black book.

Capitalism has many vices and has been given much more sympathy for its faults than communism has for its, but what do you mean by worse?

I don't see any ironic element in Marxism-Leninism. Any argument could be incorrect? Highly, but it is so for every single ideology, every single idea on the face of the planet. Everything we think we know could be wrong. You don't have to be evil to stand against a certain ideology. You are only evil if you have no moral considerations about your actions.

You misunderstand. The ironic element is fallibilism, and rather than a clearly stated maxim (although it can be and has been that), this appears in various philosophical works throughout history as a permenation, characteristic of the way philosophers write, talk, live, etc. It is the degree of fallibilism embodied within a way of thinking which makes it more or less philosophical -- anything which leaves no room for such doubt (I could very well be mistaken about everything I think is true) . . . and I mean a real, emotional doubt, not just a 'feigned' intellectual-type . . . strays from philosophical and becomes ideological. Philosophy aims primarly to investigate truth, and therefore remains tentative in judgment, whereas ideology primarily means to present something as a more or less indisputable truth, and therefore becomes absolute in judgment.

[USSRv2]

Quote by: Morality Games Capitalism has many vices and has been given much more sympathy for its faults than communism has for its, but what do you mean by worse? .

I am not going to list the number of cases where Capitalism and Imperialism (To unseperateable entities) murdered, but i do believe it to be far worse, for a simple reason: Capitalism claimed (incorrectly) victory, and then simply ignored what it did wrong. There is no "black book of Capitalism", no testament to the other side of the Vietnam War - who by the way had every right on their side. Capitalism is still killing in the millions. It is an indirect system, but nevertheless responsible for the deaths of starvations and disease. And constantly failing to admit it. At least modern day Socialists renounce the mistakes we made - while several conservative Capitalists today still like Churchill. The man believed and an International Jewish Conspiracy! And i didn't exactly see him opening his arms to welcome the refugee jews.. No, instead he though up Israel, and see what came from that.

Quote by: Morality Games You misunderstand. The ironic element is fallibilism, and rather than a clearly stated maxim (although it can be and has been that), these appear in various philosophical works as permenations, characteristic of the way philosophers write, talk, live, etc. It is the degree of fallibilism embodied within a way of thinking which makes it more or less philosophical -- anything which leaves no room for such doubt (I could very well be mistaken about everything I think is true) . . . and I mean a real, emotional doubt, not just a 'feigned' intellectual-type . . . strays from philosophical and becomes ideological. Philosophy aims primarly to investigate truth, whereas ideology primarily means to present something as truth.

I still maintain, however, that Marxism-Leninism is a scientific ideology.

I am not sure what most of those words translate into - nor what they mean. Sorry, but i am not a native speaker. You'll need to refrace that, or simplify it.

[Morality Games]

Ideologies are not all bad (I am liberal myself) but they should never be anyone's dominant mode of thought (my life does not revolve around what a liberal I am). Unfortunately, the impulse of humans to impose a fixed structure on the world is very strong, and people take a dim view of anyone's attempts to demonstrate fatal flaws in the foundation of whatever ideals they build up.

I am not going to list the number of cases where Capitalism and Imperialism (To unseperateable entities) murdered, but i do believe it to be far worse, for a simple reason: Capitalism claimed (incorrectly) victory, and then simply ignored what it did wrong. There is no "black book of Capitalism", no testament to the other side of the Vietnam War - who by the way had every right on their side. Capitalism is still killing in the millions. It is an indirect system, but nevertheless responsible for the deaths of starvations and disease. And constantly failing to admit it. At least modern day Socialists renounce the mistakes we made - while several conservative Capitalists today still like Churchill. The man believed and an International Jewish Conspiracy! And i didn't exactly see him opening his arms to welcome the refugee jews.. No, instead he though up Israel, and see what came from that.

Capitalism has contributed to the waging of many 'unjust' wars (most wars do somebody some good), but even so, I don't see how, in practice, it is worse than socialism (additionally, you should factor in things like the weaknesses of democracy).

I think the weaknesses of both systems simply reflect the ability of humans to make the worst of their situations -- or their inability to get themselves out of bad situations in spite of how good the solutions sound in theory.