The Iraqi surge is working!

[GHook93]

Note: This is not a thread on whether we should have invaded Iraq. We should not have. The Iraq war was the biggest blunder in US military history. Sadam was a perfect regional power rival to Iran's Alamanutjob and Sadam had to WMDs. This is also not about the success of the Political objectives of the Iraqi government, because that has been a failure.


The surge is working. It is pacifying Iraq, curbing the violence and laying the ground work for the Iraqi military to take over. Of course all the success is moot without the Iraqi government hitting its political objects and a strong Iraqi leader emerging. But the success of the surge is undeniable.

(1) Bagdad is becoming secure!

About 75% of Baghdad's neighborhoods are now secure. The military classifies 356 of Baghdad's 474 neighborhoods in the "control" or "retain" category of its four-tier security rating system, meaning enemy activity in those areas has been mostly eliminated and normal economic activity is resuming.

Military: 75% of Baghdad areas now secure - USATODAY.com

Just compare the numbers before and after!

Before General Petraeus’ surge strategy: 8 percent. After General Petraeus’ surge strategy: 75 percent.

(2) Bringing Sunnis into the mainstream and more investments:

the recent breakthrough on de-Baathification reform will help integrate the city's Sunnis back into the mainstream of government and society, helping to assuage sectarian conflicts. As the capital becomes more secure, infrastructure investment will escalate, helping to keep rivalries from becoming violent.

Captain's Quarters

(3) US Troop and Civilian Deaths are Dramatically Dropping:

The number of U.S. military and Iraqi civilian deaths has dropped dramatically, according to recent reports, Thirty-seven Americans have died in October, the lowest monthly figure since March 2006 when 31 perished, according to the U.S. military. The number of Iraqi civilians killed in September was 844, down from 1,990 in January, according to Iraqi governmental figures provided to CNN. Slain bodies found dumped in Baghdad dropped from 428 in August to 151 in October, the Iraqi Interior Ministry said.

Iraq war deaths show sharp decline - CNN.com

(4) Al Sadr signed an cease-fire with the US and an alliance with the Iraqi government against Al Qaeda!- I don't have time to cite it, but its true!

(5) The Sunnis have turned on Al Qaeda
- I don't have time to cite it, but its true!

(6) Al Qaeda is getting desperate using retarded women and cripples!
- I don't have time to cite it, but its true!

Again all this is in vain without the political reforms and success, but at least the surge is reaching its objectives!

[Zeebadee]

Great news! In a few more years we'll have Iraq back to it's original state, complete with a dictator of their own choosing. Not bad for a few hundred thousand deaths and a couple of trillion dollars.

[Technosoul]

Now if our at-home surge of policemen in the streets would make our own city more secure, instead of just causing more tickets for us normal folks.

[HelioPrime]

Technosoul your scaring the libertarians.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Zeebadee Great news! In a few more years we'll have Iraq back to it's original state, complete with a dictator of their own choosing. Not bad for a few hundred thousand deaths and a couple of trillion dollars.

Like I said if the political objectives are not met, then its all in vain. But a perfect leftist strategy is to ignore surges success and state we should never have gone in. Yes that is true, but the reality is the Giant Bush got sent us in to Iraq. That is history, nothing can change that.

What needs to be addressed is the reality of the situation now. That is specifically why I addressed it in the opening!

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 Like I said if the political objectives are not met, then its all in vain. But a perfect leftist strategy is to ignore surges success and state we should never have gone in.

Do you want me to go over the list of reasons it was "all in vain?" I've done it before, and I'll do it again (Zeebadee actually went over some of the initial crucial points).

Anyway, here's a related story:

Senate advances anti-war bill Senate Republicans on Tuesday helped advance a Democratic-pushed bill to cut off money for the war in Iraq, saying the additional debating time would allow them to hail progress there. Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell said the discussion will allow the GOP to cite the "extraordinary progress that's been made in Iraq over the last six months, not only on the military side, but also with civilian reconciliation beginning to finally take hold in the country."

Grandpa h.

[Domino]

It's hard to find numbers on it, but I've heard reports that much of the surge's success is due to the near-completion of the ethic-cleansing efforts. Everyone's been sorted into their boxes, and it's much easier, now, to keep them apart.

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa Do you want me to go over the list of reasons it was "all in vain?" I've done it before, and I'll do it again (Zeebadee actually went over some of the initial crucial points).

Again Grandpa, its not about whether the war should have been fought that has been argued in other threads. It is about the success of the surge. The common Leftist counter-argument is to state we should have never been there, because they can't provide proof that surge is not working. They rather ignore it and stick to their story.

Anyway, here's a related story: Senate advances anti-war bill Senate Republicans on Tuesday helped advance a Democratic-pushed bill to cut off money for the war in Iraq, saying the additional debating time would allow them to hail progress there.

Still not about the surges success or failure. Rather the every approval rate dropping Congress's illegitimate bill that won't go anywhere

Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell said the discussion will allow the GOP to cite the "extraordinary progress that's been made in Iraq over the last six months, not only on the military side, but also with civilian reconciliation beginning to finally take hold in the country."

Again it doesn't have to do with the success or failure of the surge.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Domino It's hard to find numbers on it, but I've heard reports that much of the surge's success is due to the near-completion of the ethic-cleansing efforts. Everyone's been sorted into their boxes, and it's much easier, now, to keep them apart.

LOL, the ethnic-cleansing is the reason! That's rich! Both Sunnis, Kurds and Shias still make up their pre-war percentage of the population. There is still are mixed Shia and Sunni neighborhoods. I love how you stated a very very unlikely and irrational theory and proved no proof, links or articles supporting it!

[another day]

Quote by: Zeebadee Great news! In a few more years we'll have Iraq back to it's original state, complete with a dictator of their own choosing. Not bad for a few hundred thousand deaths and a couple of trillion dollars.

Exactly!

The common Leftist counter-argument is to state we should have never been there, because they can't provide proof that surge is not working. They rather ignore it and stick to their story.

You miss the point. Whether the surge is working or not is irrelevant because it is a struggle for nothing. To return to the original state of affairs more or less, with an American backed dictator (albeit shrouded in a cloak of "democracy"). Hell yes they should have never invaded! Whether the surged is working or not is ignored by "leftists" because the aims of the invasion are not virtuous in the first place! Why should we think a successful invasion is a good thing if we believe it was wrong to invade in the first place?

The point is not whether the invasion will be successful or not. It's the fact that it was the wrong decision to invade in the first place, and you don't need to be a "leftist" to think that. Infact, it is the opposite ideology of the left that should be supporting isolationist, laissez faire policies, while the leftists should be the ones trumpeting this kind of "nation building". That was always a leftist kind of thing, while conservatives traditionally shunned such interventions. It is the neocons who like this sort of thing, because they are more akin to leftists then traditional right wingers.

[Domino]

Sadly, I am not privy to the details of the ethnic composition of various neighborhoods in Baghdad, nor am I skilled at tracking down references to words a few random yammerheads spoke on some news-talk shows. Any chance you could share your sources on the details of Baghdad's neighborhoods?

I like how I stated that I'd heard reports, rather than trying to claim that I spoke the immutable truth.

As for unlikely and irrational: it seems to me to be one of two possibilities: either the surge worked, or keeping the peace got a lot easier, because not so many people still felt like they had something to fight about.

Perhaps I can give a decent source in a few hours. Perhaps not.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: HelioPrime Technosoul your scaring the libertarians.

oh well, freedom is not free ya know. the price is less security.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 Again Grandpa, its not about whether the war should have been fought that has been argued in other threads. It is about the success of the surge.

I wasn't aware the two issues were mutually exclusive. As I've explained many times, the US is engaging in a formula for World War. The "surge" isn't going to change that. All the media is doing longstanding things get worse -- not that things are all well. Hundreds died in a series of explosions in Baghdad last month, for example.

Grandpa h.

[Milton Bradley]

Yeah, the surge is working, as long as the Sunni cease fire holds.


Than I wonder what new twist to the story they'll invent to dupe they're followers into preaching yet more reasons for US intervention.

[grandpa]

Sorry, I think some words were accidentally deleted when I posted here last.

I meant to write something like:
"All the media is doing is downplaying, continuing a longstanding tradition. And this fits my theory that the US government can always claim credit when Iraq improves or maintain its presence if things get worse.

Not that things are all well. Hundreds died in a series of explosions in Baghdad last month, for example."

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Yeah, the surge is working, as long as the Sunni cease fire holds. Than I wonder what new twist to the story they'll invent to dupe they're followers into preaching yet more reasons for US intervention.

Remember that Gaza has also had ceasefires. Just because there is peace in one place and time, it
doesn't mean all rocketfire or persecution will stop. Other than that, U.S. "intervention" in their country is certainly no panacea.

Grandpa h.

[diabloman]

ya i could realize that too

[sevendogs]

Yes, the surge is working. Why do we need the surge? Because of suicide bombings. Before the invasion there were no suicide bombings in Iraq. How long the surge will be needed?

[Socrates]

Another mission accomplished

[Ibn_Sina]

I don't have time to cite it, but its true!

Yeah. We believe you.