Why Don’t Jews Like the Christians Who Like Them?

[righthand]

Why Don’t Jews Like the Christians Who Like Them?
Liberalism can’t abide conservative evangelicals.

In the United States, the two groups that most ardently support Israel are Jews and evangelical and fundamentalist Christians. Jewish support is easy to explain, but why should certain Christians, most of them politically quite conservative, be so devoted to Israel? There is a second puzzle: despite their support for a Jewish state, evangelical and fundamentalist Christians are disliked by many Jews. And a third: a large fraction of African-Americans are hostile to Israel and critical of Jews, yet Jewish voters regard blacks as their natural allies. The evidence about evangelical attitudes is clear. In 2006, a Pew survey found that evangelical Christians were more favourable toward Israel than the average American was—and much more sympathetic than either mainline Protestants or secularists. In another survey, evangelical Christians proved much likelier than Catholics, Protestants, or secular types to back Israeli control of Jerusalem, endorse Israeli settlements on the West Bank, and take Israel’s side in a Middle Eastern dispute. (Among every religious group, those who are most traditional are most supportive of Israel. The most orthodox Catholics and Protestants, for instance, support Israel more than their modernist colleagues do.) Evangelical Christians have a high opinion not just of the Jewish state but of Jews as people. That Jewish voters are overwhelmingly liberal doesn’t seem to bother evangelicals, despite their own conservative politics. Yet Jews don’t return the favour: in one Pew survey, 42% of Jewish respondents expressed hostility to evangelicals and fundamentalists. As two scholars from Baruch College have shown, a much smaller fraction—about 16%—of the American public has similarly antagonistic feelings toward Christian fundamentalists.

Winter 2008 Vol.18 No.1

The reason that conservative Christians—opposed to abortion and gay marriage and critical of political liberalism—can feel kindly toward Jewish liberals and support Israel so fervently is rooted in theology. One finds among fundamentalist Protestants a doctrine called dispensationalism. The dispensationalist outlook, which began in early-nineteenth-century England, sees human history as a series of seven periods, or dispensations, in each of which God deals with man in a distinctive way. The first, before Adam’s fall, was the era of innocence; the second, from Adam to Noah, the era of conscience; the third, from Noah to Abraham, of government; the fourth, from Abraham to Moses, of patriarchy; the fifth, from Moses to Jesus, of Mosaic law; and the sixth, from Jesus until today, of grace. The seventh and final dispensation, yet to come, will be the Millennium, an earthly paradise. For dispensationalists, the Jews are God’s chosen people. For the Millennium to come, they must be living in Israel, whose capital is Jerusalem; there, the Temple will rise again at the time of Armageddon. On the eve of that final battle, the Antichrist will appear—probably in the form of a seeming peacemaker. Fundamentalists differ over who the Antichrist will be (at one time he was thought to be Nero, at another time the papacy, and today a few have suggested the secretary-general of the UN), but dispensationalists agree that he will deceive the people, occupy the Temple, rule in the name of God, and ultimately be defeated by the Messiah. Many dispensationalists believe that how a person treats Israel will profoundly influence his eternal destiny.

[Nono]

The answer is in the last paragraph of your linked article. These "Christian" wackjobs view Israel as a means to an end. It isn't that they 'like Jews' -- they don't.

Conservative Christians—opposed to abortion and gay marriage and critical of political liberalism—can feel kindly toward Jewish liberals.

They can? I doubt it. They support Israel, not Jews, and sure as hell not liberal Jews.

Jews, on the other hand, have a history of support for liberal public policy in the US, and elsewhere. They therefore undestandably have no use for a gang of redneck zealots.

And if American Jews are historically sympathetic to the cause of American Blacks, that's probably also because of the bigotry they themselves have faced.

[nm420]

Why Don’t Jews Like the Christians Who Like Them?

I'm going out on a limb here, but perhaps because its obvious to the casual observer that these Christians treat the Jews like pawns in their spiritual chess game? That is, as far as my understanding goes anyhow, their support for Israel hinges almost solely on their belief that the reemergence of the Jewish state will help to bring about the end times. This so-called "love" for Israel is entirely phony; rather it is a love for the fulfilment of revelational prophecies. I know I'd feel more than a little sore about such support.

[grandpa]

Quote by: nm420 I'm going out on a limb here, but perhaps because its obvious to the casual observer that these Christians treat the Jews like pawns in their spiritual chess game? That is, as far as my understanding goes anyhow, their support for Israel hinges almost solely on their belief that the reemergence of the Jewish state will help to bring about the end times.

In any case, they're gambling with people's lives.

Grandpa h.

[righthand]

Quote by: Nono The answer is in the last paragraph of your linked article. These "Christian" wackjobs view Israel as a means to an end. It isn't that they 'like Jews' -- they don't.

True but difficult for many to discern what they are truly meant to believe with the mixed message.

Quote by: Nono They can? I doubt it. They support Israel, not Jews, and sure as hell not liberal Jews.

So America got the liberal intelligent Jews, Israel belatedly got the dregs of Europe including Russia and the wackjobs are to support the Israeli state! Even more complicated for simple wackos!

Quote by: Nono Jews, on the other hand, have a history of support for liberal public policy in the US, and elsewhere. They therefore understandably have no use for a gang of redneck zealots.

What about the redneck zealots in Israel in their extraordinary garb that make Muslims look positively modern?

Quote by: Nono And if American Jews are historically sympathetic to the cause of American Blacks, that's probably also because of the bigotry they themselves have faced.

True.

[righthand]

Quote by: nm420 This so-called "love" for Israel is entirely phony; rather it is a love for the fulfilment of revelational prophecies. I know I'd feel more than a little sore about such support.

Agreed and if you were smart liberal Jew would you have trust into the future when you see some of the racial difficulties there are?

If I were a liberal American Jew I'd sleep better after a black person had served the full four years as president. And if I was a liberal Jew I'd prefer if the so called Christians really believed in Jesus Christ and not some retributionist and revelation prophecy rubbish, none of which has ever come true, but is encouraged by the Zionists for their own ends. Complicated!

[Nono]

Quote by: righthand What about the redneck zealots in Israel in their extraordinary garb that make Muslims look positively modern?

It's a problem for enlightened American Jews, admittedly. There's at least one example on this board (I won't name him since I'm not 100% certain). He's liberal, decent, very well informed -- certainly no redneck. And he can see both sides of the Palestine issue. But he just can't quite free himself of that tribal allegiance, and ends up being lopsidedly pro-Israel, meaning that he somehow always finds a way of justifying Israeli conduct, or at least throwing up his hands and blaming it all on the Arabs.

I can see why it isn't easy.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Nono He's liberal, decent, very well informed -- certainly no redneck.

Dang, why are my ears burning like this...?

Oh!

Just for the record, Nono, I was was raised a Methodist - sorta - but converted to devout atheism around age 20. Different tribe altogether.

Quote by: Nono But he just can't quite free himself of that tribal allegiance, and ends up being lopsidedly pro-Israel, meaning that he somehow always finds a way of justifying Israeli conduct, or at least throwing up his hands and blaming it all on the Arabs.

As to this, I'm not all that one sided. It's just that for all the claims and counter-claims of tit for tat, I've come to a firm conclusion that, all things considered, one side bears more blame for the endless brutality than the other.

I compare it somewhat to the Balkans conflict. Serbs constantly insisted that the Croatians, Bosnians and Kosovars were all guilty of their own share of atrocities during the conflict. Which is indisputably true. But in the end one had to concede that the vast majority of atrocities were initiated and committed by the Serbs, and make an overall judgment accordingly.

So it is with Israel/Palestine. Yes, the Israeli's have behaved inexcusably in many instances. But with all the factors added and subtracted, the bottom line remains that Israel, over the last 60 years, has been defending their existence against constant aggression and that whatever misery the Palestinians are suffering, in the overall span of history, they brought it upon themselves.

Were it possible for a discussion to take place here regarding whether or not the Israelis have -- regardless of anyone else -- behaved badly, I'd certainly agree that they have. But that conversation seems illusive. It always seems to come down to the evil Israelis versus the poor, poor Palestinians, and given everything I've just written, that's simply not a measure of the scales that I can agree with.

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[Nono]

An amazing example of synchonicity this thread.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Nono The answer is in the last paragraph of your linked article. These "Christian" wackjobs view Israel as a means to an end. It isn't that they 'like Jews' -- they don't.

This is my understanding as well. Many fundamentalist Christians support Israel because the existance of Israel plays a vitally important part in the prophesies of Revelations and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, which they see as right around the corner. Israel and all the ongoing turmoil surrounding them play right into the prophecies of Armageddon, which, being devout true-believers, the Religious Right is eagerly awaiting.


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[righthand]

Quote by: Sonart . Dang, why are my ears burning like this...? I compare it somewhat to the Balkans conflict. Serbs constantly insisted that the Croatians, Bosnians and Kosovars were all guilty of their own share of atrocities during the conflict. Which is indisputably true. But in the end one had to concede that the vast majority of atrocities were initiated and committed by the Serbs, and make an overall judgement accordingly. So it is with Israel/Palestine. Yes, the Israeli's have behaved inexcusably in many instances. But with all the factors added and subtracted, the bottom line remains that Israel, over the last 60 years, has been defending their existence against constant aggression and that whatever misery the Palestinians are suffering, in the overall span of history, they brought it upon themselves.

Extraordinary. With this logic the next step would that the Jews were responsible for the holocaust!!! Having done a reasonably summary of the Balkans and arrived at the conclusion that the Serbs were the aggressors, this same person comes to the conclusion that the victim, the Arabs are at fault. Now I see what Nono predicted earlier with...

But he just can't quite free himself of that tribal allegiance, and ends up being lopsidedly pro-Israel, meaning that he somehow always finds a way of justifying Israeli conduct, or at least throwing up his hands and blaming it all on the Arabs.

Thankfully the majority of American Jew and quite a deal of non-settler Israelites do not hold his view. True that the world does view Americans now as fascist fundamentalist rednecks because of Bush but that would be to misjudge the true position.

Turncoats often feel that they have to try harder to prove themselves in their public utterances so they are never trusted by either side. Being on a Zionist forum probably means that he has to try harder to be accepted. Having no god allegiances allows me the luxury of thinking for myself.

Zionist Murder Rate of Arabs Below Target

[shrike]

Quote by: righthand Extraordinary. With this logic the next step would that the Jews were responsible for the holocaust!!! Having done a reasonably summary of the Balkans and arrived at the conclusion that the Serbs were the aggressors, this same person comes to the conclusion that the victim, the Arabs are at fault. Now I see what Nono predicted earlier with...

Well Arabs like Serbs were the most aggressive from the beginning .It was Arab aggression in beginning of the conflict that lead to creation of Jewish self defense groups. They played pivotal role in creation of Jewish state. So Arabs again could blame only themselves for turning to violence again and again.
That how it started:
Jaffa riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And that how it continued

[righthand]

Extraordinary. With this logic the next step would that the Jews were responsible for the holocaust!!!

Then maybe ...

The Genius Were ZIONISTS responsible for the HOLOCAUST? It's not my opinion. Rabbi Gedalya Liebermann certainly thinks so. Here is the article... 'Zionists Were Spiritually And Physically Responsible For The Holocaust' I have not made up my mind yet.

...and ...

There is plenty of evidence of Zionists cooperating with nazis before and during ww2 even after they found out about the holocaust happening some quick links Baltimore Independent Media Center: 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With The Nazis, Edited by Lenni Brenner, Fort Lee, NJ (Barricade Books, 2002), 342 pages. Zionist - Nazi cooperation before WW II Zionist collaboration with the Nazis

I trust that this makes up for my error about "the Jews being responsible for the holocaust" when this may not have been accurate.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: righthand ...this same person comes to the conclusion that the victim, the Arabs are at fault.

Extraordinary indeed, that any thinking person can conclude the Arabs are NOT at fault. After all...

It was the Arabs who began the whole cycle of violent reprression in the 20's and 30's, under the guidance of Hitler's pal, the Mufti of Jerusalem...



...it was the Arabs who, despite being on the side of history's most villainous losers, refused to accept the will of the United Nations perfectly reasonable two state solution, an independent Palestinian state, which had never existed before, and a very small Jewish state of Israel, and chose instead to launch the first of many wars of annihilation against Israel.

It was the Arabs who launched subsequent wars against Israel in 1956, in 1967 and 1973.

It was the Arabs who, with each failed war of aggression against Israel, failed to absorb to resulting Palestinian refugees but instead herded them into squalid refugee camps in order to grow hate filled proxies for the continuing agression against Israel. What do you imagine Gaza is but a huge, former Egyptian refugee camp?

It was the Arabs who refused to accept the existence of Israel and it was the Arabs who, for 40 years, unders the banners of Al-Fatah, Black September, the PLO, Hamas and Hezbollah, have waged a non-stop campaign of terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.

So as bad as Israel's settlement policies may reek, as bad as their over-the-top efforts to thwart cross border (Lebanon) terrorist attacks, as unfairly as Jewish laws may favor Jews (Allah forbid that Muslim countries should legally discriminate against non-muslims), I hardly see how it compares even slightly to the Arab's 60 years of brutal murder and aggression.

Quote by: righthand Were ZIONISTS responsible for the HOLOCAUST?

Keep this up and you're going to paint a picture of yourself that even Nono won't side with.

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[righthand]

Quote by: supposedly by me Were ZIONISTS responsible for the HOLOCAUST?

Show where I wrote this. You created this. More Zionist lies and deceptions. I wrote ...

Quote by: righthand Extraordinary. With this logic the next step would that the Jews were responsible for the holocaust!!! Having done a reasonably summary of the Balkans and arrived at the conclusion that the Serbs were the aggressors, this same person comes to the conclusion that the victim, the Arabs are at fault. Now I see what Nono predicted earlier with... Quote by: Nono But he just can't quite free himself of that tribal allegiance, and ends up being lopsidedly pro-Israel, meaning that he somehow always finds a way of justifying Israeli conduct, or at least throwing up his hands and blaming it all on the Arabs.

...and ...

Turncoats often feel that they have to try harder to prove themselves in their public utterances so they are never trusted by either side. Being on a Zionist forum probably means that he has to try harder to be accepted. Having no god allegiances allows me the luxury of thinking for myself/

Must I examine ever quote from you for distortions and lies? How can I trust anything that you write in the future? Withdraw your distortion.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: righthand Show where I wrote this. You created this. More Zionist lies and deceptions. I wrote ...

Then I'm confused about why you brought it up in the context of this thread. You wrote, ....

"I trust that this makes up for my error about "the Jews being responsible for the holocaust" when this may not have been accurate."

MAY not have been accurate? As if there's any question that it's insanely false? Again, why did you link to it if you don't espouse it?

Quote by: righthand You created this. More Zionist lies and deceptions.

I'm sorry... exactly what did I say that's false?

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[righthand]

One last time ...

Quoted by: righthand No.11 Extraordinary. With this logic the next step would that the Jews were responsible for the holocaust!!! Having done a reasonably summary of the Balkans and arrived at the conclusion that the Serbs were the aggressors, this same person comes to the conclusion that the victim, the Arabs are at fault. Now I see what Nono predicted earlier with... Quote by: Nono But he just can't quite free himself of that tribal allegiance, and ends up being lopsidedly pro-Israel, meaning that he somehow always finds a way of justifying Israeli conduct, or at least throwing up his hands and blaming it all on the Arabs. Turncoats often feel that they have to try harder to prove themselves in their public utterances so they are never trusted by either side. Being on a Zionist forum probably means that he has to try harder to be accepted. Having no god allegiances allows me the luxury of thinking for myself.

I then discovered a thread on Volconvo which indicated that in fact that Jews were responsibility for the Holocaust. So I attempted to correct my earlier statement that they were not and said...

Quote by: righthand No.13] I trust that this makes up for my error about "the Jews being responsible for the holocaust" when this may not have been accurate.

You chose to totally distort my words and wose attempted to enter a fraudulent entry purporting to be mine.

Fraudulent Quote supposedly by me No.14 Were ZIONISTS responsible for the HOLOCAUST?

You may claim to have misunderstood my intentions in clarifying my earlier statement but no matter how stupid you may be, it is no excuse for a fraudulent entry purporting to be mine.

From your other input that is entirely off thread, I may judge that distortion of fact is a regular event with you. Put simply, you are a fraud and a distorter of facts. Par for the course.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: righthand Turncoats often feel that they have to try harder to prove themselves in their public utterances so they are never trusted by either side.

Turncoat? Against who am I a turncoat?

Quote by: righthand Thankfully the majority of American Jew and quite a deal of non-settler Israelites do not hold his view.

The majority of American and non-settler Israeli Jews don't believe Israel has been defending itself against Arab aggression lo these past 60 years? Odd, then, that Israelis keep electing folks like Netanyahu and Sharon to run the country.

Quote by: righthand Being on a Zionist forum probably means that he has to try harder to be accepted. Having no god allegiances allows me the luxury of thinking for myself/

Be accepted by whom? How do you make the leap that I'm looking for one side or the other to "accept me"? A Zionist forum??? You started this thread, right? Or are you implying that Volconvo on the whole is a Zionist forum? Based on what?

And I submit that having no religious affiliation means exactly that... that I have, in fact, thought this through for myself.

Quote by: righthand So I attempted to correct my earlier statement that they were not and said...

So let me get this straight... you attempted to riducule me by declaring that blaming the Palestinians for the mideast conflict was equivilent to blaming the Jews for the Holocaust. Then, you repost an arguement claiming that Zionists were, in fact, responsible in some way for the Holocaust and add that, based on these links, you may have been wrong in implying that Jews WEREN'T responsible for the Holocaust.

Did you actually read the links, Righthand? Do you actually find some truth that the Holocaust was God's punishment of the Jews for disobeying parts of the Torah that claim that the Jews eviction from Israel was God's punishment for some horrible, unnamed sins, and that the Jews could never return to Israel until God instructed them to?

Quote by: righthand You chose to totally distort my words and wose attempted to enter a fraudulent entry purporting to be mine. Fraudulent Quote supposedly by me

I'm confused here... did you or didn't you intentionally post those links and declare that, thanks to them, you now had reason to AGREE with them and to therefore take back your earlier sarcastic statement to me impling that Jews were obviously NOT responsible for the Holocaust.

Exactly how many ways do you intend to have this?

Quote by: righthand You may claim to have misunderstood my intentions in clarifying my earlier statement but no matter how stupid you may be, it is no excuse for a fraudulent entry purporting to be mine.

I'm not the least bit stupid, righthand. Are you now saying that you DON'T agree with those links?

Quote by: righthand From your other input that is entirely off thread, I may judge that distortion of fact is a regular event with you. Put simply, you are a fraud and a distorter of facts. Par for the course.

It is duly noted that rather than rebut any of my points as false or point out where I'm a fraud, you chose simply to insult me. I do far better than that in almost everything I write here.

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[righthand]

And again...

Quoted by: righthand No.11 Extraordinary. With this logic the next step would that the Jews were responsible for the holocaust!!! Having done a reasonably summary of the Balkans and arrived at the conclusion that the Serbs were the aggressors, this same person comes to the conclusion that the victim, the Arabs are at fault. Now I see what Nono predicted earlier with... Quote by: Nono But he just can't quite free himself of that tribal allegiance, and ends up being lopsidedly pro-Israel, meaning that he somehow always finds a way of justifying Israeli conduct, or at least throwing up his hands and blaming it all on the Arabs. Turncoats often feel that they have to try harder to prove themselves in their public utterances so they are never trusted by either side. Being on a Zionist forum probably means that he has to try harder to be accepted. Having no god allegiances allows me the luxury of thinking for myself.

I then discovered a thread on Volconvo which indicated that in fact that Jews were responsibility for the Holocaust. So I attempted to correct my earlier statement that they were not and said...

Quote by: righthand No.13 I trust that this makes up for my error about "the Jews being responsible for the holocaust" when this may not have been accurate.

You chose to totally distort my words and worse attempted to enter a fraudulent entry purporting to be mine.

Quote by:Fraudulent Quote supposedly by me No.14 Were ZIONISTS responsible for the HOLOCAUST?

You may claim to have misunderstood my intentions in clarifying my earlier statement but no matter how stupid you may be, it is no excuse for a fraudulent entry purporting to be mine.

From your other input that is entirely off thread, I may judge that distortion of fact is a regular event with you. Put simply, you are a fraud and a distorter of facts. Par for the course.

[Jack]

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