Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

castille · Nov 1, 2003, 10:35 pm

Its odd how Communists assume everyone wants their system.

"But everyone wants Communism! How could they not?"

Ironically, this is the same sort of thinking that predates Fascism.

"But everyone wants Fascism! How could they not?"

Then they say "But anyone who doesn't support Communism must be brainwashed, so it is our job to re-brainwash them to become Communists again!".

Wow....and I thought Stalin was bad!

The Devil · Nov 1, 2003, 11:40 pm

"But everyone wants American-style capitalism! How could they not?"

RebelWithanAK · Nov 2, 2003, 12:19 am

Zing.

G. Adams · Nov 2, 2003, 09:10 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
Its odd how Communists assume everyone wants their system.

"But everyone wants Communism! How could they not?"

Ironically, this is the same sort of thinking that predates Fascism.

"But everyone wants Fascism! How could they not?"

Then they say "But anyone who doesn't support Communism must be brainwashed, so it is our job to re-brainwash them to become Communists again!".

Wow....and I thought Stalin was bad!<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No, communists know full well that most people in the Western world at least don't want communism, because most westerners benefit from capitalism. There is no point even arguing for communism in the West because, although you may get a strong support from a number of post materialists, it will never be enough.

If communists want to succeed they should go to places where the proleteriat actually are now, in Latin America, Africa and Asia.

However I'd argue this shouldn't be done until capitalism is more fully ingratiated into these countries. You need everyone to have a decent education before trying to turn them to communism, or else they are too easily exploited once there are communists in power.

And your argument that fascists think "everyone wants fascism" is simply wrong. For a fascist, one consistent with his ideology at least, what other people want is irrelevant. It is those with a will to power who have a right to make the people do as they want, regardless of whether they want it.

This is opposed to a consistent communist, who would argue that it must be the will of the people that creates the new society, not a leader.

castille · Nov 2, 2003, 11:10 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (The Devil,)
"But everyone wants American-style capitalism! How could they not?"<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

So if people don't want American-style capitalism or Communism....then what?

(I know. You'll say "Who cares about the people, lets do Communism!", with a big artificial smile)

Section 8 · Nov 2, 2003, 12:22 pm

Not everyone wants capitalism, because they want to retain their wealth. On the other hand many third world countries would benefit greatly from communism because they're poor and dying.

The Devil · Nov 2, 2003, 02:58 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (The Devil,)
"But everyone wants American-style capitalism! How could they not?"<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

So if people don't want American-style capitalism or Communism....then what?

(I know. You'll say "Who cares about the people, lets do Communism!", with a big artificial smile)<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You obviously have no idea about me. If I could choose a form of government it would be libertarian, though I'd rather just have anarchy. I have no problems with capitalism, just the American version of it that causes what I call "corporate communism" (when the corporations all merge into mega-corporations and you have no choice in products anymore, and then they have a significant role in your life, perhaps more than the government itself). The US legal system is fucked. Patent laws are fucked. Copyright laws are fucked.

nature of reality · Nov 2, 2003, 05:24 pm

"Not everyone wants capitalism, because they want to retain their wealth. On the other hand many third world countries would benefit greatly from communism because they're poor and dying. "

How would communism work in a poor and uneducated country, without sufficient amounts of intelligent and produtive people to rob/sacrifice?

castille · Nov 2, 2003, 11:44 pm

If you're looking for true mega-corporations, try Japan. Their corporations are usually monopolies, and starting a business in Japan is like pulling teeth.

If you want less "mega-corporations", then start supporting small business and entrepreneurs.

Large companies have one fatal flaw - their strategies are rigid and bumbling. Smaller companies and businesses are faster at change, and able to capitalise on opportunities quicker. Thus the more people entering into business, the smaller the large corporations become.

The Devil · Nov 3, 2003, 12:07 am

I do support small businesses, and I AM an entrepreneur :B. However, there's no way I can hope to compete unless I make my own product based on computers, instead of doing the copycat build computers and sell them thing. Which is exactly what my next project is... something new >:B

castille · Nov 3, 2003, 10:04 am

Computers? Why only computers?

Its true small business will find it hard to compete, but didn't those big corporations evolve from small business? Walmart was once a store in the middle of nowhere, Maccas was a single takeaway store, KFC was an old dude with a recipe (and no money)....

I believe any small business can compete against large corporations. They got money? We got vision. They got big-powered executives? We got creative thinkers. They got global networks? We got more people supporting us. They want to throw lawyers at us? We dont own any legal assets (or if we do they "belong to an entity").

The Devil · Nov 3, 2003, 02:05 pm

Computers, because computers are what I'm good at. I'm not good at anything else, so I can't make a business centric around anything but computers :B.

castille · Nov 7, 2003, 06:49 am

Devil, you don't need to be good at something to start a business. I don't know anything about any of my businesses - I recently got into a magazine venture (and I am a poor writer), but it still works.

In fact I'm part of the guys who think that its better NOT to know anything about your business in order to be successful. Its not the technical skills that matter, but the skills to run a business.

Besides, if you grow to say 1000 customers per month, do you have time to make all 1000 computers?

Nov 1, 2003, 10:35 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Its odd how Communists assume everyone wants their system. "But everyone wants Communism! How could they not?" Ironically, this is the same sort of thinking that predates Fascism. "But everyone wants Fascism! How could they not?" Then they say "But anyone who doesn't support Communism must be brainwashed, so it is our job to re-brainwash them to become Communists again!". Wow....and I thought Stalin was bad! Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Nov 2, 2003, 12:19 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Zing. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Nov 2, 2003, 09:10 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,161	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) Its odd how Communists assume everyone wants their system. "But everyone wants Communism! How could they not?" Ironically, this is the same sort of thinking that predates Fascism. "But everyone wants Fascism! How could they not?" Then they say "But anyone who doesn't support Communism must be brainwashed, so it is our job to re-brainwash them to become Communists again!". Wow....and I thought Stalin was bad!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No, communists know full well that most people in the Western world at least don't want communism, because most westerners benefit from capitalism. There is no point even arguing for communism in the West because, although you may get a strong support from a number of post materialists, it will never be enough. If communists want to succeed they should go to places where the proleteriat actually are now, in Latin America, Africa and Asia. However I'd argue this shouldn't be done until capitalism is more fully ingratiated into these countries. You need everyone to have a decent education before trying to turn them to communism, or else they are too easily exploited once there are communists in power. And your argument that fascists think "everyone wants fascism" is simply wrong. For a fascist, one consistent with his ideology at least, what other people want is irrelevant. It is those with a will to power who have a right to make the people do as they want, regardless of whether they want it. This is opposed to a consistent communist, who would argue that it must be the will of the people that creates the new society, not a leader. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Nov 2, 2003, 11:10 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (The Devil,) "But everyone wants American-style capitalism! How could they not?"<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> So if people don't want American-style capitalism or Communism....then what? (I know. You'll say "Who cares about the people, lets do Communism!", with a big artificial smile) Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Nov 2, 2003, 02:58 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
The Devil Molten Ash Location: Canada Posts: 55	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (The Devil,) "But everyone wants American-style capitalism! How could they not?"<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> So if people don't want American-style capitalism or Communism....then what? (I know. You'll say "Who cares about the people, lets do Communism!", with a big artificial smile)<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You obviously have no idea about me. If I could choose a form of government it would be libertarian, though I'd rather just have anarchy. I have no problems with capitalism, just the American version of it that causes what I call "corporate communism" (when the corporations all merge into mega-corporations and you have no choice in products anymore, and then they have a significant role in your life, perhaps more than the government itself). The US legal system is fucked. Patent laws are fucked. Copyright laws are fucked.

Nov 1, 2003, 11:40 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
The Devil Molten Ash Location: Canada Posts: 55	"But everyone wants American-style capitalism! How could they not?"

Nov 2, 2003, 12:22 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Not everyone wants capitalism, because they want to retain their wealth. On the other hand many third world countries would benefit greatly from communism because they're poor and dying.

Nov 2, 2003, 05:24 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
nature of reality Molten Ash Posts: 134	"Not everyone wants capitalism, because they want to retain their wealth. On the other hand many third world countries would benefit greatly from communism because they're poor and dying. " How would communism work in a poor and uneducated country, without sufficient amounts of intelligent and produtive people to rob/sacrifice? Whats wrong with Liberty?

Nov 2, 2003, 11:44 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	If you're looking for true mega-corporations, try Japan. Their corporations are usually monopolies, and starting a business in Japan is like pulling teeth. If you want less "mega-corporations", then start supporting small business and entrepreneurs. Large companies have one fatal flaw - their strategies are rigid and bumbling. Smaller companies and businesses are faster at change, and able to capitalise on opportunities quicker. Thus the more people entering into business, the smaller the large corporations become. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Nov 3, 2003, 12:07 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
The Devil Molten Ash Location: Canada Posts: 55	I do support small businesses, and I AM an entrepreneur :B. However, there's no way I can hope to compete unless I make my own product based on computers, instead of doing the copycat build computers and sell them thing. Which is exactly what my next project is... something new >:B

Nov 3, 2003, 10:04 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Computers? Why only computers? Its true small business will find it hard to compete, but didn't those big corporations evolve from small business? Walmart was once a store in the middle of nowhere, Maccas was a single takeaway store, KFC was an old dude with a recipe (and no money).... I believe any small business can compete against large corporations. They got money? We got vision. They got big-powered executives? We got creative thinkers. They got global networks? We got more people supporting us. They want to throw lawyers at us? We dont own any legal assets (or if we do they "belong to an entity"). Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Nov 3, 2003, 02:05 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
The Devil Molten Ash Location: Canada Posts: 55	Computers, because computers are what I'm good at. I'm not good at anything else, so I can't make a business centric around anything but computers :B.

Nov 7, 2003, 06:49 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Devil, you don't need to be good at something to start a business. I don't know anything about any of my businesses - I recently got into a magazine venture (and I am a poor writer), but it still works. In fact I'm part of the guys who think that its better NOT to know anything about your business in order to be successful. Its not the technical skills that matter, but the skills to run a business. Besides, if you grow to say 1000 customers per month, do you have time to make all 1000 computers? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.