Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

castille · Oct 19, 2003, 10:40 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)

Legal system? I'm talking about police opening fire on innocent protestors, claiming they were a danger.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Was it as bad as when Soviet tanks pushed into Hungary and Czechslovakia, killing innocents left and right? Maybe some American cop lost it (it happens) during the heat of the rock throwing, but the Soviet superpower deliberately exterminated sections of Prague without consideration.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)

America is a representative repulic. The USSR wasn't at all conserned with human rights.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Then be glad you live in a country that allows you to say what you just said. In any Communist country, you'd be jailed. USSR, China, Cuba, etc. You're a counter-revolutionary criminal intent on the destruction of the socialist state paradise with pro-fascist or pro-capitalist leanings. (I've heard that so many times in Chinese trials its no longer making sense)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)

You call the thousands of innocents killed in Iraq limiting civilian casualties. Not to mention US soldiers. That's at the least 20,000 dead innocent fathers, children, and mothers. Don't forget those thousands upon thousands who are left in permanent poverty, and disease without water. Oh yeah, I forgot we used smart bombs.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Were 20,000 people killed DELIBERATELY by US bombs? No.

Don't forget the millions who were always in poverty under Saddam's regime.

Oh yeah, I forgot Saddam also executed more than 20,000 people too. What is better, a few accidental deaths, or deliberate extermination?

I can claim you killed over 100,000 ants over your lifetime. Many monks would be horrified that you killed so much life.

Everything is done on comparison. Unless we clone Ghandis and execute everyone else, we can never have a "Paradise".

Section 8 · Oct 19, 2003, 09:36 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Were 20,000 people killed DELIBERATELY by US bombs? No.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Actually the answer is yes. We went to war knowing that many would lose their lives, but we said screw em' Halliburton needs their paycheck. Just becaise Sadam killed more people than we did, doesn't mean that it's okay that we do.

Scribbler1 · Oct 19, 2003, 10:59 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Were 20,000 people killed DELIBERATELY by US bombs? No.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Actually the answer is yes. We went to war knowing that many would lose their lives, but we said screw em' Halliburton needs their paycheck. Just becaise Sadam killed more people than we did, doesn't mean that it's okay that we do.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

This seems to be an argument about how we (Americans) think of ourselves and our "allies" as opposed to the way the rest of the world sees US. I find it unfathomable to think that otherwise reasonable people in this country swallow whole the illusion that we are the force of goodness and reason in this world and anyone who opposes what we do must surely be delusional, barbaric, stupid or a combination of all three. When I was a kid, that's what we grew up on and it's hard to think otherwise. My experience with a lot of people teaches me that it's a little TOO hard to think we and those we support (remember, Saddam was our buddy when he was at war with Iran) might not always be the good guys.

The world is indeed flat. It exists between the Mexican and Canadian borders and everything else is just insignificant.

castille · Nov 10, 2003, 08:11 am

[b]<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Were 20,000 people killed DELIBERATELY by US bombs? No.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Actually the answer is yes. We went to war knowing that many would lose their lives, but we said screw em' Halliburton needs their paycheck. Just becaise Sadam killed more people than we did, doesn't mean that it's okay that we do.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

So you are suggesting, beyond reasonable doubt, that the United States Armed Forces DELIBERATELY PLANNED the deaths of 20,000 Iraqis.

I will repeat your words:

[b]<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Were 20,000 people killed DELIBERATELY by US bombs? No.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Actually the answer is yes.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Your words explicitly state that "20,000 people killed DELIBERATELY by US bombs". That means you are suggesting the American state has ordered for the actual killing of civilians, with the INTENT of war crimes?

Or were you lying?

G. Adams · Nov 10, 2003, 09:57 am

The US didn't plan much of what is happening now, being that they are incompitent. They genuinely believed that they would be welcomed with open arms? Hehe, idiots.

RebelWithanAK · Nov 10, 2003, 10:27 am

Judging from the results, the US defense department is incompetent at best and malicious at worst. There really isn't too much to hope for, either way.

Scribbler1 · Nov 10, 2003, 01:23 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
Judging from the results, the US defense department is incompetent at best and malicious at worst. There really isn't too much to hope for, either way.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I don't think for a minute the Military as a whole is malicious. Their entire reason to exist is to blow things up and kill people, and unfortunately they do it better than anyone else. But they ONLY act under orders and those orders come from the slime and political whores which inhabit the White House snd Congress, who operate ONLY under the code of doing for themselves and their backers. The whole Iraq thing is a no-brainer, as long as anyone remembers what led up to it.
I remember the news reports on Colin Powell's phony presentation of "proof" Iraq is a menace to the US. Everyone likes to throw in the word General when referring to the Secretary of State, but he is not a General. He is an EX General and now a political appointee loyal to, and part of Bush's administration.
As far as I can tell, most soldiers and low, middle and high ranking officers greatly outnumber the decision makers and would much rather be home mowing their lawns than sitting in hot sand being shot at and blown up, so be careful with the blanket term "Military". But as Rebel said, it's the Defense Department at fault and even THEY don't START wars, they run them, and only under the orders of the President.

RebelWithanAK · Nov 10, 2003, 01:44 pm

Quite - I didn't say the military overall. I understand that NCOs and low level officers really are really trying to do the best job they can while saving their own skins. I support the lives of the men on the field. I don't support their mission.

Scribbler1 · Nov 11, 2003, 02:16 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
Quite - I didn't say the military overall. I understand that NCOs and low level officers really are really trying to do the best job they can while saving their own skins. I support the lives of the men on the field. I don't support their mission.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Which reminds me, tomorrow (Nov. 11) is Veterans Day. I have a little holder on the front step handrail and I will be putting my flag in it tomorrow, as I do on Memorial day. Just a tiny little way to show I respect the men on the field, as you said. It's a small flag and years old, but sometimes it's worth displaying.

But when some fool pastes flags all over his pickup truck or litters his front yard with them to show blind support for some airhead politician (not just Bush) I get a little sick to my stomach.

RebelWithanAK · Nov 11, 2003, 03:02 am

I don't support the US's actions enough to fly a flag, and the UN flag is barred from being placed on American soil. It's just going to be another day.

G. Adams · Nov 11, 2003, 08:53 am

The UN flag is what? Why the hell not? Thats as anti free-speech as trying to ban the burning of the flag. Guess its gonna have to be a red flag then.

Scribbler1 · Nov 11, 2003, 10:54 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
I don't support the US's actions enough to fly a flag, and the UN flag is barred from being placed on American soil. It's just going to be another day.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Where did you hear THAT?? First, the UN flag regulations themselves state that the UN flag shall only be flown in agreement with the flag laws of the country it is flown in. The US regulations state you CAN fly other nations flags as well as the UN but they can't be flown at a greater height than the US flag, that's all. I believe the only exception is flying the flag of a nation the US is at war with alongside the US flag.

Besides, you said you support the lives of the men in the military, just not their mission. Fine. In fact I agree with that one statement. But remember they are doing what they're TOLD to do. The soldiers you supposedly support didn't decide to invade anyone, and they are Americans too.

Just remember there are a lot of us who believe the flag is a symbol of the whole country and not the elite few who run it. Besides I said I was flying it due to Veterans Day, in honor of the people who served the country and FOLLOWED orders, not the politicians who GAVE them.

Scribbler1 · Nov 11, 2003, 10:58 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
The UN flag is what? Why the hell not? Thats as anti free-speech as trying to ban the burning of the flag. Guess its gonna have to be a red flag then.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

From reading both the UN flag code and that of the US, what Rebel said was way off the mark. And guess what? You CAN fly a red flag in this country, but not in every state. Almost any other country's flag too. But the regulation about it not flying higher than the US flag goes for a red flag as well.

Anarchist Patriot · Nov 12, 2003, 10:02 pm

I do not hate America. I live here and I will stay here. But its that moron we have as President that I hate. Why in the hell do we have to have a simpleton like that as a leader. How anyone can vote for a piece of feces like that is beyond me.

Bush is a maniac who is leading the US to armageddon.

I am so embarassed that the nation I live in is ruled by such a leader.

Haik · Nov 29, 2003, 12:14 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,)
...and they then go on to stereotype every American like that... ...Their countries must be so drab...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I believe people have valid reasons for disliking the country, and youre making a wild assumption thinking that they just don't know what they are saying and blame it all on Bush as you put. "They have no idea what the american culture is like"? Well I've lived here for about 8 years and I still have yet to run accross anything resembling a culture.

RebelWithanAK · Nov 29, 2003, 07:07 pm

Zing. =]

Scribbler1 · Nov 30, 2003, 12:58 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Haik,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,)
...and they then go on to stereotype every American like that... ...Their countries must be so drab...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I believe people have valid reasons for disliking the country, and youre making a wild assumption thinking that they just don't know what they are saying and blame it all on Bush as you put. "They have no idea what the american culture is like"? Well I've lived here for about 8 years and I still have yet to run accross anything resembling a culture.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Well said. We used to be told that the very mix of dissimilar cultures is what made America a great nation. You know, the great melting pot and all that! Now, we are told our "culture" is the best, whatever that happens to be. The actual definition is American culture is whatever the scumbags in Washington tell the sheep what it's supposed to be.

Oct 19, 2003, 10:40 am	#121 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) Legal system? I'm talking about police opening fire on innocent protestors, claiming they were a danger.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Was it as bad as when Soviet tanks pushed into Hungary and Czechslovakia, killing innocents left and right? Maybe some American cop lost it (it happens) during the heat of the rock throwing, but the Soviet superpower deliberately exterminated sections of Prague without consideration. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) America is a representative repulic. The USSR wasn't at all conserned with human rights.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Then be glad you live in a country that allows you to say what you just said. In any Communist country, you'd be jailed. USSR, China, Cuba, etc. You're a counter-revolutionary criminal intent on the destruction of the socialist state paradise with pro-fascist or pro-capitalist leanings. (I've heard that so many times in Chinese trials its no longer making sense) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) You call the thousands of innocents killed in Iraq limiting civilian casualties. Not to mention US soldiers. That's at the least 20,000 dead innocent fathers, children, and mothers. Don't forget those thousands upon thousands who are left in permanent poverty, and disease without water. Oh yeah, I forgot we used smart bombs.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Were 20,000 people killed DELIBERATELY by US bombs? No. Don't forget the millions who were always in poverty under Saddam's regime. Oh yeah, I forgot Saddam also executed more than 20,000 people too. What is better, a few accidental deaths, or deliberate extermination? I can claim you killed over 100,000 ants over your lifetime. Many monks would be horrified that you killed so much life. Everything is done on comparison. Unless we clone Ghandis and execute everyone else, we can never have a "Paradise". Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 19, 2003, 09:36 pm	#122 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Were 20,000 people killed DELIBERATELY by US bombs? No. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Actually the answer is yes. We went to war knowing that many would lose their lives, but we said screw em' Halliburton needs their paycheck. Just becaise Sadam killed more people than we did, doesn't mean that it's okay that we do.

Oct 19, 2003, 10:59 pm	#123 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Were 20,000 people killed DELIBERATELY by US bombs? No. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Actually the answer is yes. We went to war knowing that many would lose their lives, but we said screw em' Halliburton needs their paycheck. Just becaise Sadam killed more people than we did, doesn't mean that it's okay that we do.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This seems to be an argument about how we (Americans) think of ourselves and our "allies" as opposed to the way the rest of the world sees US. I find it unfathomable to think that otherwise reasonable people in this country swallow whole the illusion that we are the force of goodness and reason in this world and anyone who opposes what we do must surely be delusional, barbaric, stupid or a combination of all three. When I was a kid, that's what we grew up on and it's hard to think otherwise. My experience with a lot of people teaches me that it's a little TOO hard to think we and those we support (remember, Saddam was our buddy when he was at war with Iran) might not always be the good guys. The world is indeed flat. It exists between the Mexican and Canadian borders and everything else is just insignificant. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Nov 10, 2003, 08:11 am	#124 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	[b]</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Were 20,000 people killed DELIBERATELY by US bombs? No. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Actually the answer is yes. We went to war knowing that many would lose their lives, but we said screw em' Halliburton needs their paycheck. Just becaise Sadam killed more people than we did, doesn't mean that it's okay that we do.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> So you are suggesting, beyond reasonable doubt, that the United States Armed Forces DELIBERATELY PLANNED the deaths of 20,000 Iraqis. I will repeat your words: [b]</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Were 20,000 people killed DELIBERATELY by US bombs? No. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Actually the answer is yes.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Your words explicitly state that "20,000 people killed DELIBERATELY by US bombs". That means you are suggesting the American state has ordered for the actual killing of civilians, with the INTENT of war crimes? Or were you lying? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Nov 10, 2003, 09:57 am	#125 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	The US didn't plan much of what is happening now, being that they are incompitent. They genuinely believed that they would be welcomed with open arms? Hehe, idiots. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Nov 10, 2003, 10:27 am	#126 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Judging from the results, the US defense department is incompetent at best and malicious at worst. There really isn't too much to hope for, either way. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Nov 10, 2003, 01:23 pm	#127 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) Judging from the results, the US defense department is incompetent at best and malicious at worst. There really isn't too much to hope for, either way.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I don't think for a minute the Military as a whole is malicious. Their entire reason to exist is to blow things up and kill people, and unfortunately they do it better than anyone else. But they ONLY act under orders and those orders come from the slime and political whores which inhabit the White House snd Congress, who operate ONLY under the code of doing for themselves and their backers. The whole Iraq thing is a no-brainer, as long as anyone remembers what led up to it. I remember the news reports on Colin Powell's phony presentation of "proof" Iraq is a menace to the US. Everyone likes to throw in the word General when referring to the Secretary of State, but he is not a General. He is an EX General and now a political appointee loyal to, and part of Bush's administration. As far as I can tell, most soldiers and low, middle and high ranking officers greatly outnumber the decision makers and would much rather be home mowing their lawns than sitting in hot sand being shot at and blown up, so be careful with the blanket term "Military". But as Rebel said, it's the Defense Department at fault and even THEY don't START wars, they run them, and only under the orders of the President. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Nov 10, 2003, 01:44 pm	#128 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Quite - I didn't say the military overall. I understand that NCOs and low level officers really are really trying to do the best job they can while saving their own skins. I support the lives of the men on the field. I don't support their mission. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Nov 11, 2003, 02:16 am	#129 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) Quite - I didn't say the military overall. I understand that NCOs and low level officers really are really trying to do the best job they can while saving their own skins. I support the lives of the men on the field. I don't support their mission.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Which reminds me, tomorrow (Nov. 11) is Veterans Day. I have a little holder on the front step handrail and I will be putting my flag in it tomorrow, as I do on Memorial day. Just a tiny little way to show I respect the men on the field, as you said. It's a small flag and years old, but sometimes it's worth displaying. But when some fool pastes flags all over his pickup truck or litters his front yard with them to show blind support for some airhead politician (not just Bush) I get a little sick to my stomach. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Nov 11, 2003, 03:02 am	#130 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	I don't support the US's actions enough to fly a flag, and the UN flag is barred from being placed on American soil. It's just going to be another day. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Nov 11, 2003, 08:53 am	#131 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	The UN flag is what? Why the hell not? Thats as anti free-speech as trying to ban the burning of the flag. Guess its gonna have to be a red flag then. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Nov 11, 2003, 10:54 pm	#132 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) I don't support the US's actions enough to fly a flag, and the UN flag is barred from being placed on American soil. It's just going to be another day.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Where did you hear THAT?? First, the UN flag regulations themselves state that the UN flag shall only be flown in agreement with the flag laws of the country it is flown in. The US regulations state you CAN fly other nations flags as well as the UN but they can't be flown at a greater height than the US flag, that's all. I believe the only exception is flying the flag of a nation the US is at war with alongside the US flag. Besides, you said you support the lives of the men in the military, just not their mission. Fine. In fact I agree with that one statement. But remember they are doing what they're TOLD to do. The soldiers you supposedly support didn't decide to invade anyone, and they are Americans too. Just remember there are a lot of us who believe the flag is a symbol of the whole country and not the elite few who run it. Besides I said I was flying it due to Veterans Day, in honor of the people who served the country and FOLLOWED orders, not the politicians who GAVE them. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Nov 11, 2003, 10:58 pm	#133 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) The UN flag is what? Why the hell not? Thats as anti free-speech as trying to ban the burning of the flag. Guess its gonna have to be a red flag then.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> From reading both the UN flag code and that of the US, what Rebel said was way off the mark. And guess what? You CAN fly a red flag in this country, but not in every state. Almost any other country's flag too. But the regulation about it not flying higher than the US flag goes for a red flag as well. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Nov 12, 2003, 10:02 pm	#134 (permalink) (top)
Anarchist Patriot Molten Ash Posts: 143	I do not hate America. I live here and I will stay here. But its that moron we have as President that I hate. Why in the hell do we have to have a simpleton like that as a leader. How anyone can vote for a piece of feces like that is beyond me. Bush is a maniac who is leading the US to armageddon. I am so embarassed that the nation I live in is ruled by such a leader.

Nov 29, 2003, 12:14 pm	#135 (permalink) (top)
Haik Molten Ash Posts: 64	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,) ...and they then go on to stereotype every American like that... ...Their countries must be so drab...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I believe people have valid reasons for disliking the country, and youre making a wild assumption thinking that they just don't know what they are saying and blame it all on Bush as you put. "They have no idea what the american culture is like"? Well I've lived here for about 8 years and I still have yet to run accross anything resembling a culture.

Nov 29, 2003, 07:07 pm	#136 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Zing. =] . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Nov 30, 2003, 12:58 am	#137 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Haik,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,) ...and they then go on to stereotype every American like that... ...Their countries must be so drab...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I believe people have valid reasons for disliking the country, and youre making a wild assumption thinking that they just don't know what they are saying and blame it all on Bush as you put. "They have no idea what the american culture is like"? Well I've lived here for about 8 years and I still have yet to run accross anything resembling a culture.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well said. We used to be told that the very mix of dissimilar cultures is what made America a great nation. You know, the great melting pot and all that! Now, we are told our "culture" is the best, whatever that happens to be. The actual definition is American culture is whatever the scumbags in Washington tell the sheep what it's supposed to be. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.