America Haters

[barbnf]

An interesting insight ... Hmm ...


Thank you for sharing ... I'll think about it! ... :) ...

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by greendeath@08-31-2003 01:52 AM I am not an America-hater, but an America-disliker. Why? Bush. You sit and claim that people who do not have the best of thoughts on America are "uneducated", yet you fail to realize that proper education does not come from the media.

I can't speak for Europeans, but as an American I would say I'm an America critic. If I see something bad (or good) I will speak my mind on it. The U.S. Constitution says I have that right and no one will tell me otherwise. I also believe it is everyone's (not just the U.S.) duty to criticize how their government behaves or we will all end up like those countries which DON'T have that right.
The problem I see is, as has been noted, the WAY other countries see us as presented by the media, international or domestic. Personally I am a moderate-leaning American, and that means none of you will see ME in any media outlet. What you DO see is the far left, far right, crazies, criminals and everything else deemed "newsworthy" [read: sensational]. Again, speaking as an American, I can see how a lot of people here get the impression that the rest of the world hates us, as that they only see the sensational and not the everyday lives of Americans. Just like many Americans see cultures like in the Mid East as composed of nothing more than lunatics and suicide bombers. They all seem to miss the fact that most of the world is made up of ordinary, decent people just trying to get by.
I know Americans are not all simple-minded, or corporate thugs or power hungry politicians and I don't believe most of us look down on the rest of the world, and I certainly hope the rest of the world doesn't see US that way either. I believe only the narrow minded, uninformed, and easily led people of the world have these hateful opinions of the "other side".

[Section 8]

Ha, you obviously don't live in America. You have free speech, as long as you have the money. In America lives are sold and bought daily, you never hear that on the media. Just because I'm far left doesn't mean I'm insane.

[RebelWithanAK]

Originally posted by G. Adams@09-16-2003 09:53 AM Europe didn't colonise the world with weapons, we did it with trade.

Tell that to China.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Section 8@10-10-2003 07:28 PM Ha, you obviously don't live in America. You have free speech, as long as you have the money. In America lives are sold and bought daily, you never hear that on the media. Just because I'm far left doesn't mean I'm insane.

I would never call you or anyone else thoughtful enough to post here insane.
I'm not a rich man but I think the fact I'm posting here at all negates your point. I DO have the freedom of speech and I think the web is the great equalizer. I never owned a newspaper or radio/TV station so no one but my family and friends would ever hear from me until we had discussion forums. On the other hand, I'm sure you know if this forum existed in China, the webmaster could, and WOULD be jailed.
I think every honest opinion has merit, agree or disagree. But I do see our freedom of speech as being in danger from those foolish enough to give it away.

[Section 8]

Ever try to protest here? You get asked to leave. If you don't they shoot and/or arrest you. But the pigs don't get charged with murder.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Section 8@10-10-2003 07:59 PM Ever try to protest here? You get asked to leave. If you don't they shoot and/or arrest you. But the pigs don't get charged with murder.

If you mean do I protest as in marches, rallys, etc., I can't say that I do. Generally, I find a lot of organized protests aren't very effective and often whatever the cause may be I can't totally agree with. I think marches and chanting often has the opposite effect on the people they try to sway. As worthy as a particular cause may be, I find that a lot of people are turned off by organized rallys. Middle America types don't like the "in your face" feling they get from most large protests, and it's precisely the middle america types you need to accomplish anything. They need to be gently swayed. It's a little disheartening to see the liberal side not taking a cue from the right-wingers like Rush Limbaugh. He is a great example of how the conservatives figured it out. If you start out by making sense to middle america, then you've got them and they'll believe everything you say after that even if it's wrong

BTW, during the Vietnam war I DID join rallys and protests, and for the most part it got us nowhere. Sure, we'd love to say it was our protesting that ended that mess but the reality is when our PARENTS finally realized how wrong that war was, THEN it stopped, because they had the political power.
Plus, a very large part of the population are sheep and when the liberals decide to capitalize on that, like Limbaugh, Gallagher, Hannity and the rest than you'll see a swing to the left.

[Section 8]

What about revolution? How would you propose, because slowly easing anyone isn't going to be the clincher.

[Fallen Angel]

Originally posted by Section 8@10-10-2003 07:59 PM Ever try to protest here? You get asked to leave. If you don't they shoot and/or arrest you. But the pigs don't get charged with murder.

Well at least your not being run over with tanks.. Tiannamen square(cough)

[fedfem]

Originally posted by Fallen Angel@10-11-2003 07:30 AM Well at least your not being run over with tanks.. Tiannamen square(cough)

and Rachel Corry

[Section 8]

Shot in the head or run over with tanks, not sure which is worse they both kill you.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Section 8@10-11-2003 02:58 AM What about revolution? How would you propose, because slowly easing anyone isn't going to be the clincher.

[quote]

Revolution takes many forms. As I said, persuasion is the way to go here and that is the lesson the right wing learned. Like it or not, the Limbaughs, Gallaghers and the rest are as we speak practicing their own form of revolution, and their audiences reflect a LOT of people who agree with them. I think the numbers for Limbaugh are around 20 million listeners. Of course, not all of them necessarily believe every word the man says. A lot of his audience is made up of people who hate him, but that's fine with him as numbers equal ratings, which equal money. Keep in mind even 20 mil is not everyone. I believe there are a lot of dissatisfied Americans who would love to support a more moderate government. I believe that group is made up of two main groups. One is the sheep who are worse than useless as they support whoever is popular or vote for party X because they always have even though most can't name their own senators. The other group is made up of moderates who ARE concerned and DO vote and vote for people they actually know something about. They need their own version of Limbaugh, where he'll say something and the moderates out there go "hey, he's got a good point" but they don't have one because they are too splintered.
Now, the OTHER form of revolution, which I think you are talking about, is the kind that WILL get you shot! There are a lot of people who think this country should be "taken over" or "taken back" and want some kind of social upheaval, which I don't think most of America wants, at least not to that large a degree. There are plenty of people who would love to see that kind of revolution, but I also see no Patrick Henry's among them who are willing to die (or even be the least bit inconvenienced) for whatever their cause.
Anytime I talk to someone who talks about revolution (the radical kind), I'm willing to listen but always ask the same question. Whatever you're overthrowing, what would you replace it with? I haven't gotten a straight answer yet.
Personally, I am for change and I don't like where the U.S. is headed, but I see the answer as replacing the people taking us in that wrong direction. Revolution? Hell, I'd be happy if these people got off their lazy asses and VOTED! That's why I support independent candidates.
Go out and get yourself shot or arrested if you want to, but I believe if I can change a few minds with words and ideas I've done my job and hopefully a lot of people like me will change a few minds too. Remember, it took decades to get us in this mess and it will take decades, maybe generations, to get us out.

[Section 8]

Me, communist anarchism.
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archi...whatis_toc.html
very interesting. Although I'm looking into anarcho-syndicalism. hopefully this helps.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Section 8@10-11-2003 08:06 PM very interesting. Although I'm looking into anarcho-syndicalism. hopefully this helps.

I didn't have time to read the whole page you linked to, but I did read the introduction. As a longtime cynic I haven't formed an opinion based solely on this, but I will say if what this guy writes is true it is a far cry from what most people think of the concept of anarchy. But the presentation makes anarchy sound a little too much like the founders' original conception of the U.S. which makes me a little suspicious. But as always, I keep an open mind.

[Ainbhlinn]

I swear anarchists have to change their name. Socialists too. Popular conception of these things has traversed too far away from their original meaning.

I read Section 8's link's introduction and it seems accurate so far. A really good introduction to anarchy can be found here, in library-sized faq form.

As for anti-Americanism... I really never experienced it myself. I am an American, and I talk to people who are accused of being anti-American all the time. Why do they talk to me? Why do they turn to Noam Chomsky (an American) or Howard Zinn (an American Veteran of WWII) for political guidance?

My conclusion is that, just like affirmative action, "anti-Americanism" is a wedge tactic thrown into the public to divide people (in this case, normal white people from the left) and make them ignore the real issues. After all, why would you embrace dissidents if you perceive them to be fanatics who wish to destroy your way of life? Why would you, as a Christian, think of reading anarchist or communist material if you perceive them to be anti-religious monsters? Or Stalinist zombies? Fascists. Etc etc.

[Fallen Angel]

That was a bulldozer Fedfem, the Chinese were protesting in their own country, Rachael Corrie was unfortunate not to realise in time that bluffing doesnt always work, her friends who stood and watched and did nothing to get her out of the way in time, were idiots.

[Section 8]

How is standing up for a cause stupid? That's what Jesus did, and you commend him for it. Yet I don't see you calling Jesus stupid. It's called being hypocritical.

[Fallen Angel]

Jesus died for a reason and rose again three days after, Carrie was deluded, she didnt have to die, there were other things she could have done to stop the Dozer, a grenade under it would have worked.

[Section 8]

Jesus gathered enough followers, and he could also flee.

[Fallen Angel]

No, he was a condemned man under Jewish and Roman law, there was no where for him to go.
His followers would have been slaughtered if they had resisted his arrest, in the Garden of Gethsemene, where Jesus was put under arrest, Peter drew a sword and sliced off a soldiers ear, Jesus quickly picked up the ear and put it back on the mans face, this probably stopped Peter and his other followers from getting hacked to pieces by the amazed soldiers.
It was Jesus fate to die for our sins, so he had to go through with it.