America Haters

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

In my opinion, the way to influence the world is to reason out your ideas, become skilled at defending them and debate often. This is not my only beach-head. :)

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by fedfem@Sep 1 2003, 01:48 AM I personally do not believe there is a "norm". Moderation is the key.

If their is no norm, then there are no boundaries, and how can anything be a moderate action?

To fight for compromise is to fight for failure. There is no point fighting at all if you are then going to moderate them.

And FA, thats not quite how I'd see a revolution going. I see people voting for left wing governments, but the previous government refuses to leave, or the army tries a military coup. Once the government attacks its own people or democracy, its open season on the government.

And their wouldn't be multiple communist governments. A country could class itself as no more than socialist while it still remains a 'country' or nation. Communism can only come about on a worldwide scale. But fundamentalism would be fought against in its own country by people fighting for democracy, and supporters coming in from abroad. Once the socialist/pre-communist ones are established, others will want to replicate it in their own country. Once their is socialism across the world, we can work towards communism.

[Nicole]

Originally posted by G. Adams@Sep 1 2003, 08:49 AM If their is no norm, then there are no boundaries, and how can anything be a moderate action?

Well said.

[fedfem]

Of course there are boundries. If there were no boundries then extremism wouldn't exist. Human nature is consistant. We all strive for the same thing:Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is only when a person feels(real or imagined) that one or more is threatened, that they cross into what would be considered "extreme". Unfortunately, imagined threats are preached and many uneducated humans follow into the extreme camp at times. Extremist leaders know that there is power in numbers and since the moderates will always have the largest numbers they look for ways to convince them of these imaginary threats. On the other hand, real threats are hard to detect until the damage has been done. In the USA, the majority does not see any threat of economic disaster--they just got a check upwards of $400, they are doing just fine.....Meanwhile, the guy that lost his job 2 years ago and did not qualify for a rebate and can barely feed his family is labeled an extremist because he is warning those moderates....He has become an extremist because his pursuit of happiness has been impacted.

[Downwiththestereotype]

Originally posted by Sodfather@Aug 30 2003, 06:49 PM I am fed up with these America haters from other countries, especially ones you find on the web. There seems to be a hop-on-the-hate-America-bandwagon effect going around the world. Most don't even know what they hate America for, they just say, "Bush." Well, personally, I think they are uneducated assholes. Sure, we have made more than our share of fuck-ups, but these haters are hating for unknown reasons...They have no idea what American culture is about, they see one redneck on their local station screaming, "Kill dem Ay-Rabs!" and they then go on to stereotype every American like that redneck. Their countries must be so drab that all they do is bash America...Bash your own country; you live in the Netherlands, is there nothing wrong with your country that you have all this spare time to focus on our problems? Someone else here must see this, they must.

The agression with which you argue your point (though correct to a certain extent) Makes you out to be exactly the "uneducated ass-hole" that you claim american Haters to be.

But i think il just take a moment to put american haters in perspective. of the 5 and 3/4 BILLION people outside the US, how many of them do you think activly hate america as a proportion of the population of the globe? Lets say for the sake of argument that 5 million people world wide have been on specific Anti-america marches SPECIFIC! (excluding ant-War and anti-bomb campaigns, or campaighns against one specific part of american policy, say Isreal)

ok, so
5,000,000 devided by 5,750,000,000,000 means that as a proportion of the population of earth, 0.0000008% activley hate america (Even if this figure is off by 50 million people its still an insignificant figure. This very fact here showes that you ARE (as somebody pointed out earlier) a media Drone. The fact is that every time theres an anti-american march somewhere it gets mass reports, a march of 5,000 people gets tons of reporting, this is where yiou get the "Uneducated ass-holes" that your talking about. But of course the media Dosent report the Billions of people world wide who arent on this march, this is precisely what people are talking about when they saying blowing things out of proportion.

and how many people who hate america do you find on the web? just remeber for everyone 1 american hater you find on the web there are probably hundreds of thousnads of people who are indiferent about america.

Now when people say they are anti-american because they hate bush, theres not nescecerily just rantings, Just look at americas foreighn popularity under clinton compared to now, Clinton did alot for americas foreighn appearence, but the american media (and the brittish as well ifact) was so far stuck up monika lowenskis rear end to notice. For example, Clinton did a great deal to help the people of Nothern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland find peace, For the first time in 4 hundred years peace was looking possible, all thanks to america and clinton, bjut what about now? Northern Ireland is once again in dissaray and have you ever heard George bush even mention Northern Ireland? let alone take an intrest in the way clinton did. and thats true of americas foreighn ppolicy now the world over. What america did in Northern Ireland was kindness, what americas foreighn policy now appears to consist of, is soely threat determination. America goes after the countries that it deems a threat, and ignores countries in need.

Beleive me, Im not trying to pin the worlds problems on america, not intentionally, and as someone said earlier, if america cut itself off from the rest of the world, it would be a disaster, the world still needs america for tarde and aid, and yes America still does do alot to help others in need (quite recently I remember a massive donation to africa) But because of the media, what things are in proportion, dosent matter anymore (as you are a living example of) What matters is sensationalism and hype, Violence works better than anything. Americas foreighn policy is its problem, The media is the gassoline to this problem. America must re-think its foreighn policy and it must rethink how its media works, as must all our nations infact.

[Downwiththestereotype]

Originally posted by mrhotdogla@Aug 31 2003, 07:20 PM "When your problems may have global consequences, they are not your problems anymore. And with the US being the world's most powerful economy, pretty much all of your problems have global repercutions. YOU CANT READ CAN YOU BOY,, WE DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK. ITS FUTILE FOR TRASH LIKE YOU TO SPEAK ON IT. "but you can express them better than this!" I EXPRESS THINGS MY WAY,,, NOT YOUR WAY,, AND IF YOU THINK ALL CAPS IS YELLING THEN THATS YOUR HANG UP NOT MINE. DO YOU WANT HONESTY HERE OR DO YOU WANT MORE OF THE SAME P.C. BULLSHEET LIKE EVERYWHERE ELSE. WHAT YOU CALL MORONIC I CALL WHAT MOST AMERICANS THINK OF THE EUROTRASH: WE DONT THINK OF THEM EXCEPT WHEN THEY OPEN THIER MOUTHS TO COMPLAIN ABOUT US OR ASK FOR OUR HELP YET AGAIN. AND WE DO THINGS OUR WAY AND THAT IS FINAL. I WANT TO TELL ALL AMERICANS TO STOP APOLOGIZING FOR AMERICA'S FORIEGN POLICY, WE DO WHATS BEST FOR US,,THEY DONT LIVE HERE, THEY DONT KNOW YOU,, OR ME,, OR WHAT WE GO THROUGH, THEY DIDNT HAVE OVER 3000 OF THEIR OWN MURDERED ON 9-11 BY AN EMENY THAT USES OUR PROSPERITY AND ALLIANCES AS AN EXCUSE TO DESTROY OUR FREEDOM, AND DONT THINK THAT EUROPE ISNT ON THE LIST OF MUSLIM EXTREMISTS TO SUBJIGATE TO ISLAM,, EXTREMIST CLERICS ARE ALREADY CALLING FOR THAT,, AND YOU EUROTRASH IN YOUR OVERLY P.C. MENTALITY WONT WANT TO BE SEEN AS RACIST SO YOU WILL LET YOURSELVES BE OVERUN, AND WALKED ON BY THE EXTREMISTS,, ITS ONE THING TO HAVE FREEDOM OF RELIGION, ITS ONE THING TO WANT TO SUBJIGATE OTHERS TO YOUR OWN RELIGEON,,,ITS ANOTHER TO GIVE IN TO THESE BACKWARD-STONE AGED CHUMPS. AND THAT IS WHAT YOU WILL DO. I SPEAK MY MIND AND I CALL THEM THE WAY I SEE THEM. DO YOU?

I would like to point out that I am replying to this post, only because I currently have time to waste, time which if short of I was, I would never waste on the ignorant likes of you.

You know I sympathise with people like you, you arent in control of your behavior, you dont seem to understand that the way you behave is obnoxious spiteful, arrogant and above all, downright offensive. Its OK, we understand that you are probably treated badly and cruely by those around you, we understand that you have suffered abuse, after all its not a perfect world is it? We understand that you were raised on sensationalist dissproportionate media, we understand that you havenot been taught the art of conversation, its OK deep down, we all sympathise with your suffering. We are tollerent we Europeans, we have, over the years learnt to put up with people who open there mouths (or in this case, there internet browser) without thinking. after all weve suffered missrebly over the years at the hands of such people. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin. You lost 3,000 good, inocent people on 9/11 But I tell you now, that Terrosism throughout Europe has cost the lives of millions. The IRA Bask (my apologies if that is spelt incorectly) seperatists, the UVF but to name a few of the terrosit groups who have tried to divide our continent. and yet afetr Thousands of years of wars, hatred, persecution and missery, Europe as a continent exists, in relitive harmony. The peoples of europe have spilt there blood and are peacefl, tollerent peoples (for the most part) Yes we critisize america and get frustrated but ultimatly we sympathise with america, Ultimatly, America is a younger version of europe (culturally) Where europe has thousands of years of history, america has meer hundreds, where europe has learnt that guns are not the answer, america last year lost 11,50 of its own citizens to firamrs (more than all of western europe put together, and europe has a population about 4 times the size of americas) 3 and a half times as many as were lost on 9/11. 9/11, the birth of international terrosim I remember it being hailed as on my flciks through Fox news. But europe has faced terrorism for centuries, and not only terrorism, its faced invasion, war and destruction on a scale that makes 9/11 a drop in the ocean.

But we, over the centuries have grown tired of fighting, of treating our neighbor with spite. we have learnt that being an arrogant self important biggot is no way to behave, and we have developed great tollerence for those who havent learnt this, such as yourself. We critisize america, because deep down we fear that if america does not learn this lesson soon, it may be to late for us all. When europe was the evil of the world, colnising raping and burning the third world, we had bows and arrows, swords and at best oversized slingshots. But of course now, is the age of the bomb, america could wipe the world out hundreds of times over, and if america is raising people like you then there is little hope for any of us. I sympathise with you my friend, i really do, but behind that, im absolutely petrified.

Peace my friend.

[Downwiththestereotype]

Originally posted by GreatWyrm of Babylon@Sep 1 2003, 01:05 AM Three things only, I have no reason to stay and sling mud around. #1 It defeats the purpose to have this many spelling errors when you are accusing someone else of being uneducated. #2 I also enjoyed the individual that went on about America being educated by the media when Europe knows little more about America than it hears on the telly either. Ignorance is common in both directions. #3 If you want to judge an Americans intelligence, why not use me, I think I can represent myself well enough. :) But start another topic if you want to do this, I am not going to post in this silly free-for-all after this.

1 Heh, very amusing that.

2 true enough.

3 Like all nations america is probably dominated by idiots, foryunatly mosty of theese idiots dont take any intrest in polotics. Ultimatly everything is done by the lowest common denominator, yes america is judged by its idiots, however, ive no doubt that satirists in the US have judged and laughed at Europe for its idiots (I often do) There is no need to judge americas inteligence by you, firstly because its irelivent ,and secondly because youve already proved yourself to be an inteligent individual and (correct me please, if im wrong) nobody has accused you of being otherwise.

[Sodfather]

Originally posted by GreatWyrm of Babylon+Sep 1 2003, 01:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (GreatWyrm of Babylon @ Sep 1 2003, 01:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>#2 I also enjoyed the individual that went on about America being educated by the media when Europe knows little more about America than it hears on the telly either. Ignorance is common in both directions.[/b]

I already blasted him for that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sodfather@Aug 31 2003, 07:26 PM
you fail to realize that proper education does not come from the media.

Thank you, I couldn't have said it better. Where have you gotten your education on America? Do they have courses on the America-Iraq situation in European colleges and high schools already? Not unless some crazy stenographer wrote a new textbook and published it in a few months. So where do you get your education on us, my friend? Where did you get your extensive knowledge of our culture? Chances are you haven't been in America for more than a month if at all. THE MEDIA, EXACTLY! ALL OF YOUR OPINIONS HAVE BEEN FORMED BY THE MEDIA.

you fail to realize that proper education does not come from the media.

THEREFORE, YOU HAVE NOT BEEN PROPERLY EDUCATED ABOUT AMERICA AND WHAT IT'S CITIZENS ARE LIKE, AND WHAT THEY THINK, AND WHAT THEY APPROVE AND DISAPPROVE OF, AND WHAT MILITARY ACTIONS THEY APPROVE OF, AND WHAT LAWS THEY APPROVE OF, and the list of what you think you know from your television overseas can go on and on and on. We are a diverse people with diverse opinions, you cannot see an interview of one senator, one citizen, a hundred citizens, on television and assume that that is the general belief in America!

Case closed, you're a fool. :([/quote]

[greendeath]

Yes, you definately "blasted" me by totally agreeing with my point, then continuing in calling me a fool, therefore making yourself look like an even greater fool for calling me so while agreeing with me entirely.

But wait, you seem to have completely turned around my statement and attempted to make it into something which it was not. I said you fail to realize proper education does NOT come from the media, you've no clue where I have gathered information from (books, web sites, a collection of bullshit documentaries). I did not gather a large chunk of my information from the media, yet you have claimed I have with absolutely no proof (did Bush put you up to this?), in which you are wrong and ignorant. I do not have to go to America in order to learn something about them, its called interacting with Americans, reading books, reading web sites, looking at many different opinions etc.

While you could sit and watch multiple news shows, or read multiple news papers, the truth is no matter how many you watch/read, you still will not even get a fraction of the truth. The media feed on people like you: anyone who believes a story told by a total stranger is their target audience.

The truth is, you are simply an ignorant American who believes anything that your president tells you....because you are a puppet and nothing more. The only thing your president needs you for is to die while shooting a rifle at "enemies" for the simple fact that, he can make you, his words are golden to you, and it makes me sick.

[BadBoy]

Shall we consider some of these facts. I am bored of the USA V's the rest of the world argument... but I am anti-American!

America is a fossil resource pig. You produce 25% of the worlds carbon emissions and do little to qualify a solution to the environmental issues regarding it. If we all used fossil fuels like the yanks we would need 10 more planets to survive.

You are forcing GM crops on the rest of the world... we dont want your stinking GM crops. Us Europeans will know more about food than the yanks ever will. Give me Italian cusine any day over a High Fat down payment scheme on heart disease via 25 different chains of fast food.

You drag us into some stinking mess of a war that should not have happened. Just so you can steal the oil, set up contracts that no-one else is allowed to apply for, and flex your millitary might because your leader hasn't got two brain cells to rub together to do anything else more worthy of his time in office.

Your sports suck. Mind you, you guys must be good at baseball as it seems you have won every WORLD SERIES.

Where ever I go now as a tourist, India, Russia, Australia, Eastern Europe etc... what do I get? Not local industry or culture but a 10 screen multiplex, 4 different fast food outlets, some obnoxious shopping centre complex, etc at every major city centre!

Your gun culture... every American must bare arms to blah blah blah. frickin idiots.

Less than 3% of your population own passports! What does that say about your view on the world at large. The only clued up Americans I have ever met were the ones that escaped! Jeeeze your president never left his shores before election... how does that work! You vote in a leader who not only hasn't flown outside his country prior to election yet doesn't have a basic knowledge of Geography! What does that say about world politics and his ability to perform on a world stage!

Bush is a moron and I guess at the end of the day is the ideal candidate to represent such a nation.

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by BadBoy@Sep 4 2003, 09:30 AM Shall we consider some of these facts. I am bored of the USA V's the rest of the world argument... but I am anti-American! America is a fossil resource pig. You produce 25% of the worlds carbon emissions and do little to qualify a solution to the environmental issues regarding it. If we all used fossil fuels like the yanks we would need 10 more planets to survive. You are forcing GM crops on the rest of the world... we dont want your stinking GM crops. Us Europeans will know more about food than the yanks ever will. Give me Italian cusine any day over a High Fat down payment scheme on heart disease via 25 different chains of fast food. You drag us into some stinking mess of a war that should not have happened. Just so you can steal the oil, set up contracts that no-one else is allowed to apply for, and flex your millitary might because your leader hasn't got two brain cells to rub together to do anything else more worthy of his time in office. Your sports suck. Mind you, you guys must be good at baseball as it seems you have won every WORLD SERIES. Where ever I go now as a tourist, India, Russia, Australia, Eastern Europe etc... what do I get? Not local industry or culture but a 10 screen multiplex, 4 different fast food outlets, some obnoxious shopping centre complex, etc at every major city centre! Your gun culture... every American must bare arms to blah blah blah. frickin idiots. Less than 3% of your population own passports! What does that say about your view on the world at large. The only clued up Americans I have ever met were the ones that escaped! Jeeeze your president never left his shores before election... how does that work! You vote in a leader who not only hasn't flown outside his country prior to election yet doesn't have a basic knowledge of Geography! What does that say about world politics and his ability to perform on a world stage! Bush is a moron and I guess at the end of the day is the ideal candidate to represent such a nation.

Though much of the above may be true, it doesn't mean you should hate America. That'd be like hating disabled people. Its not their fault. And its not the fault of the millions of intelligent Americans that are worth talking to that they are surrounded by ignorant types.

But I do dislike that so few don't travel abroad and see other cultures. Staying in your own country with all your knowledge of other people coming from the TV or textbooks must warp your thinking.

[Pooeypants]

Is it true that the mainstream history lesson in US schools (say from ages 8 to 14) mainly concern US history? Or do they do stuff like Ancient Rome, Egyptian, Russian (perhaps ;p) in the UK?

[BadBoy]

Originally posted by G. Adams@Sep 4 2003, 09:59 AM Though much of the above may be true, it doesn't mean you should hate America.  That'd be like hating disabled people.  Its not their fault.

Oh OK, so it was all just an accident... well I guess thats alright then to rape and pillage the earth for its ever declining resources, trash other cultures and generally act up as if the USA is the only country that ever matters if you only do it by mistake.

You see I thought it was world domination by the back door, but if you are sure all this was a genuine faux pas then all is ok with the world once again.

[greendeath]

Originally posted by BadBoy@Sep 4 2003, 08:06 PM Oh OK, so it was all just an accident... well I guess thats alright then to rape and pillage the earth for its ever declining resources, trash other cultures and generally act up as if the USA is the only country that ever matters if you only do it by mistake. You see I thought it was world domination by the back door, but if you are sure all this was a genuine faux pas then all is ok with the world once again.

*laughs histerically*

[Sodfather]

Originally posted by greendeath@Sep 3 2003, 03:28 PM The truth is, you are simply an ignorant American who believes anything that your president tells you....because you are a puppet and nothing more. The only thing your president needs you for is to die while shooting a rifle at "enemies" for the simple fact that, he can make you, his words are golden to you, and it makes me sick.

You're an idiot, bottom line. It's your fault you miscomprehended my post, and, because I believe that these forums were created for debate between people with at least half a brain, I refuse to feed its real meaning into your head like the baby that you are.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Actually we use 75% of the worlds resources and only contribute 25% of the pollution. That means that the rest of the world is creating 75% of the pollution with only 25% of the supply of resources. Therefore by simple mathematics, it is obvious that we only create 1/9th the pollution the rest of the world would using the same resources.

[G. Adams]

BadBoy, you can't blaim the actions of one person upon another. Similarly, you can't blame the actions of some Americans, even most Americans, upon all Americans.

Are you sure about the 75% bussiness GWB? Actually I just thought from a different perspective. Europe (EU countries only here) has 300 million people, roughly 40-50 mil more than the US, but we are all doing fine, yet we are doing it on less than one third of what you do. So if you rose to our levels of efficiency/greeness (dunno which it is thats doing it), then world would be even better off. Especially since most of the world can't clean up its pollution yet, having no money to do so, as most of their bussiness's are owned by foreigners (read US or Euro's), meaning most of the wealth goes out the country, as the workers get unbelievably shitty wages taxing them means almost nothing. Remember its taxing the big fish that matter.

Thats a good point Pooey, I don't remember doing any UK history till I was 13, up till then it was Rome, Egypt, Aztec, Greek, Native American etc

[BadBoy]

Originally posted by GreatWyrm of Babylon@Sep 4 2003, 08:18 PM Actually we use 75% of the worlds resources and only contribute 25% of the pollution. That means that the rest of the world is creating 75% of the pollution with only 25% of the supply of resources. Therefore by simple mathematics, it is obvious that we only create 1/9th the pollution the rest of the world would using the same resources.

Skewing Statistics. Here is the important fact.

The USA has 5% of the worlds population yet uses 25% of the worlds resources.

As for blame, it lies simply at the door of the American consumer with their stupid walk in fridges, drive everywhere mentality, rape of rainforests for grazing land for future Big Macs, the inability to work with agreed guidelines laid out in kyoto... I could go on forever.

You country has to slow down and learn to manage it resources better... the UK has met its Kyoto targets and intends to go better than them. We could do better but we are acting as a member of a joint community.

America is just a spoilt kid who only does things if it suits them, if doesn't get its own way then it slaps on the trade embargos.

When I go out and purchase goods I check for all sorts of things. For one if made in the USA, France or Israel then it stays on the supermarket shelf.

I make my point with my pocket... if only more people would.

[greendeath]

Originally posted by Sodfather@Sep 4 2003, 08:16 PM You're an idiot, bottom line. It's your fault you miscomprehended my post, and, because I believe that these forums were created for debate between people with at least half a brain, I refuse to feed its real meaning into your head like the baby that you are.

I'm an idiot? Pulling out the personal attacks simply because I have made you look like the fool time and time again? Thank you for giving up, my half a brain shows more obvious knowledge than your ignorance.

[Sodfather]

Your only retort is, "You're am American, you're ignorant!" Learn to speak for yourself rather than accept all you hear about America as true and repeat it like a parrot. You annoyed me away from my own thread, that's how poor your reasoning is; I'm usually a patient person but there's no sense in arguing withyour type. Your opinions on America are derived from the same thought process as someone who would say, "All black people are criminals and steal cars," or, "All of those lazy Mexicans need to get jobs," and it's called STEREOTYPING. If those comparisions don't make you come to, I don't think anything will.