Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Sodfather · Aug 31, 2003, 08:12 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by G. Adams@Aug 31 2003, 07:55 PM
Sodfather, where else did you get your information on the Iraq War 2003 if not the media? Or are you actually a government insider?

I admitted it was wrong, I said in my first post we've made mmmannnnyyy mistakes, but that's not my point. My point was that foreigners hate all Americans because they stereotype us all as warmongers who think Iraq had it coming. They think we are all fools and believe that the war was to free the Iraqi people. Bullshit, I know that's not why, I'm asking, "Where are the WMD's?" along with all of you! That's my point! We do not all feel the same, we don't all agree with the U.S.'s choices during the past year, we don't all believe the protecting of freedom bullshit!

Do you understand now?

G. Adams · Aug 31, 2003, 08:31 pm

Ahh, well if thats what your arguing, I'm afraid to say there arn't many 'anti-americans' and the brand you dislike. Most of us who get lumped into that category respect Americans (except for you all being burger munching couch potatoes...) and particularly the US Constitution. Even hardened commies would die alongside you fighting for freedom of speech. Its not our fault that there are people out there who like to jump onto the bandwagon.

Mind you, if America really was a democracy, its government would be representative of its people. So the actions of its government are also the responsibility of the American people. This goes for every country. Just shows up how much of a sham our supposed demcracies are.

Oh, and while were on the topic of stereotypes, I'd like to get a rant of my chest.

I am British.

I do not: drink tea and eat crumpets all day
love, like or respect the royal family in any way
speak with a drollllllllllllllllllliiing upper class accent. I sound more like the people from Trainspotting
And most of all I do not know your friend John from London. I know we are a small country in comparison, but we don't all know each other.

Sodfather · Aug 31, 2003, 08:46 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by G. Adams@Aug 31 2003, 08:31 PM
Mind you, if America really was a democracy, its government would be representative of its people.

True, but first of all, approval can be as low as 3/5, not all of the American people. Only 3/5 majority of the senators need to support the war for it to happen, the other 2/5 can be just as against the war as I am. And don't forget corruption, these reps can have their own agenda in mind, not what the people they represent want. Trust me, a good deal of the reps who voted for the war will be out of office next election.

G. Adams · Aug 31, 2003, 08:56 pm

I hope so, but if there was a real democracy there would be the power of recall, and those people could be shifted now.

I'm more worried about my own government. Theres no way I'm voting Labour after they sheepishly fell in line. Yeah some revolted but they have done little more than token jestures, knowing full well that the war would go ahead, meaning their objection could be dismissed. The Conservatives are worse than Labour, and I would vote them whatever their policies, they're right wing, I'm left. The Liberal Democrats, the only others left with a shot at government are political oppurtunists. Sure they're social democrat right now but they'll go whichever way the wind blows. That leaves me with the Socialist Alliance, disorganised and dominated by a Stalinist and bureaucratic SWP, the British National Party, neo-nazi scum, or the Green Party, in favour of reducing Britain to 20 million people. Excuse me, their are already 60 million of us, how are we gonna go to one third of that without sterilisation? Where the hell is my 'abstain' box.

Fallen Angel · Aug 31, 2003, 10:03 pm

Speaking from Australias minor part in the coming world war, we have nothing to lose by backing America, they have always stood by us and we by them, because we are basically the same in a lot of ways, so it is natural whether the cause is right or wrong for similar cultures to band together if they are being threatened.
I make no accusations or offer apologys for Americas covert actions since Teddy Roosevelt to now in world affairs, everything is done for a reason.
In the coming years you will experience what your ancestors went through in WW2.

G. Adams · Aug 31, 2003, 10:14 pm

That doesn't mean its right, and that doesn't mean we as the public shouldn't do everything we can to stop it happening again.

However I do agree another world war is on the way. Another Imperial age is coming into fruition, which just means another violent collapse. Lets just everyone learns their lessons this time, rather than a certain WASP nation bankrupting britain before it would help, demanding all our atomic energy secrets or stop protecting our food supplies over the atlantic, or waiting untill the enemy was on the verge of economic collapse before coming to Europe.

But this time, where is the other superpowers? Before their was the USA, USSR, GB, Germany and Japan. This time there is only the USA. This time its going to be the USA (government, not all the people of the USA you finnicky arguers) versus the people of the world, demanding their freedom from the yoke of corporations, SUV's and mcdonalds.

fedfem · Aug 31, 2003, 10:32 pm

On its way? I would say it has started.

G. Adams · Aug 31, 2003, 10:37 pm

Well yes perhaps it has. World War II really began in world war 1, or even earlier perhaps. But for a WWIII, there has to actually be somebody opposing the superpower. Untill there is some sort of organisation between the people of the world to oppose US aggression, there'll be no real war. Massacre and oppression perhaps, but no war.

fedfem · Aug 31, 2003, 10:52 pm

What is "war" in your opinion? Perhaps that should be a debate topic in itself.

Fallen Angel · Aug 31, 2003, 11:01 pm

I think what is coming and is already here, is basically just a total collapse in World affairs, wars are just going to be part of it, you can get out there in the street and scream protests and blame everything and everyone for the mess we are in untill your hoarse, but it won't do anything good, if anything you will just make a juicy target.

G. Adams · Aug 31, 2003, 11:09 pm

Well if this is true, now is the time to tool up and organise the revolution.

Fallen Angel · Aug 31, 2003, 11:23 pm

The revolution?
I trust you mean we overthrow all western governments, set up Communist ones in their place, and then all join up together to fight Islamic fundementalist nations?

Or maybe we all just lie around in the parks of the no longer functioning cities after the revolution (that you will bravely be in the frontline of I take it), and smoke Dope, and hope those nasty fundementalists don't ever come over.

fedfem · Aug 31, 2003, 11:30 pm

I think the fight should be against extremism of any stripe; religious, political, economic, etc...

All wars are based on one or more of the above.

Sodfather · Sep 1, 2003, 12:06 am

So, I'll take this as a sign that you guys aren't mature enough to stay on topic?

It went from my topic to smoking ganja in abandoned cities...What the hell? :(

Fallen Angel · Sep 1, 2003, 12:17 am

Quote:

Originally posted by fedfem@Aug 31 2003, 11:30 PM
I think the fight should be against extremism of any stripe; religious, political, economic, etc...

All wars are based on one or more of the above.

Don't you think fighting all your
above reasons for war is a touch extreme?
I mean even if the whole present world order collapsed, in its place would not be peace as you as we all do wish, there would be utter chaos on an order of magnitude that would make the fall of the Roman Empire look pretty damn small.
Then naturally as always new powers would emerge and they would pretty much do as they damn well please.

fedfem · Sep 1, 2003, 12:37 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Fallen Angel@Sep 1 2003, 12:17 AM
Don't you think fighting all your
above reasons for war is a touch extreme?

Not at all. How is defending ourselves extreme?

Of course, my weapon of choice would be education.

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Sep 1, 2003, 01:05 am

Three things only, I have no reason to stay and sling mud around.

#1

Quote:

We are very well educated, specially compaired to the level of education the average American sitizen becomes.

It defeats the purpose to have this many spelling errors when you are accusing someone else of being uneducated.

#2 I also enjoyed the individual that went on about America being educated by the media when Europe knows little more about America than it hears on the telly either. Ignorance is common in both directions.

#3 If you want to judge an Americans intelligence, why not use me, I think I can represent myself well enough. :) But start another topic if you want to do this, I am not going to post in this silly free-for-all after this.

Nicole · Sep 1, 2003, 01:12 am

Quote:

Originally posted by fedfem@Aug 31 2003, 11:30 PM
I think the fight should be against extremism of any stripe; religious, political, economic, etc...

So then who gets to define the 'norm?'

I think it's wrong in itself to tell someone they cannot be extreme. I'm a black and white believer. I either love it or I hate it. It's that way with what I believe in too- if I care enough to believe in it, I care enough to fight and die for it.

I'm not interested in a system that defines a social norm and dictates from that. What a bland and brainwashed lifestyle one would have to lead under that line of thinking.

fedfem · Sep 1, 2003, 01:48 am

I personally do not believe there is a "norm". Moderation is the key.IMO I myself, do not see things as black or white. As far as who decides...WE DECIDE! Our human nature allows compromise as well as competition.

Extremism begins to threaten when several extreme groups become one.
That is what has happened.

Bland and brainwashed lifestyle, you say? Don't most religions try to define social norms? It is the Religious and Political Extremists who have teamed up with the big Corporations and are imposing their brand of social "norms" on the rest of the world. Eventually they will destroy each other.(they always do) Our fight--or MY fight is to speed up that process.

Fallen Angel · Sep 1, 2003, 03:21 am

Quote:

Originally posted by fedfem@Sep 1 2003, 01:48 AM
I personally do not believe there is a "norm". Moderation is the key.IMO I myself, do not see things as black or white. As far as who decides...WE DECIDE! Our human nature allows compromise as well as competition.

Extremism begins to threaten when several extreme groups become one.
That is what has happened.

Bland and brainwashed lifestyle, you say? Don't most religions try to define social norms? It is the Religious and Political Extremists who have teamed up with the big Corporations and are imposing their brand of social "norms" on the rest of the world. Eventually they will destroy each other.(they always do) Our fight--or MY fight is to speed up that process.

Unless your a person with alot of influence your not really going to make a hell of a lot of difference as to what happens between major powers, widely supported religons or corperations and their effect on the social strata you and me live in, they can squash us like an ant.
How many numbers are what is most important, unfortunately this would never work for pacifists, as it would take only one agro guy with an AK to wipe them all out.
People who want to create chaos in society such as lie in's in a public place, chucking marbles under police horses or attacking politicians with cream pies are pretty much misguided and bored people.

Aug 31, 2003, 08:31 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Ahh, well if thats what your arguing, I'm afraid to say there arn't many 'anti-americans' and the brand you dislike. Most of us who get lumped into that category respect Americans (except for you all being burger munching couch potatoes...) and particularly the US Constitution. Even hardened commies would die alongside you fighting for freedom of speech. Its not our fault that there are people out there who like to jump onto the bandwagon. Mind you, if America really was a democracy, its government would be representative of its people. So the actions of its government are also the responsibility of the American people. This goes for every country. Just shows up how much of a sham our supposed demcracies are. Oh, and while were on the topic of stereotypes, I'd like to get a rant of my chest. I am British. I do not: drink tea and eat crumpets all day love, like or respect the royal family in any way speak with a drollllllllllllllllllliiing upper class accent. I sound more like the people from Trainspotting And most of all I do not know your friend John from London. I know we are a small country in comparison, but we don't all know each other. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Aug 31, 2003, 08:56 pm	#24 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	I hope so, but if there was a real democracy there would be the power of recall, and those people could be shifted now. I'm more worried about my own government. Theres no way I'm voting Labour after they sheepishly fell in line. Yeah some revolted but they have done little more than token jestures, knowing full well that the war would go ahead, meaning their objection could be dismissed. The Conservatives are worse than Labour, and I would vote them whatever their policies, they're right wing, I'm left. The Liberal Democrats, the only others left with a shot at government are political oppurtunists. Sure they're social democrat right now but they'll go whichever way the wind blows. That leaves me with the Socialist Alliance, disorganised and dominated by a Stalinist and bureaucratic SWP, the British National Party, neo-nazi scum, or the Green Party, in favour of reducing Britain to 20 million people. Excuse me, their are already 60 million of us, how are we gonna go to one third of that without sterilisation? Where the hell is my 'abstain' box. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Aug 31, 2003, 10:14 pm	#26 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	That doesn't mean its right, and that doesn't mean we as the public shouldn't do everything we can to stop it happening again. However I do agree another world war is on the way. Another Imperial age is coming into fruition, which just means another violent collapse. Lets just everyone learns their lessons this time, rather than a certain WASP nation bankrupting britain before it would help, demanding all our atomic energy secrets or stop protecting our food supplies over the atlantic, or waiting untill the enemy was on the verge of economic collapse before coming to Europe. But this time, where is the other superpowers? Before their was the USA, USSR, GB, Germany and Japan. This time there is only the USA. This time its going to be the USA (government, not all the people of the USA you finnicky arguers) versus the people of the world, demanding their freedom from the yoke of corporations, SUV's and mcdonalds. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Aug 31, 2003, 10:37 pm	#28 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Well yes perhaps it has. World War II really began in world war 1, or even earlier perhaps. But for a WWIII, there has to actually be somebody opposing the superpower. Untill there is some sort of organisation between the people of the world to oppose US aggression, there'll be no real war. Massacre and oppression perhaps, but no war. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Aug 31, 2003, 11:09 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Well if this is true, now is the time to tool up and organise the revolution. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Aug 31, 2003, 10:03 pm	#25 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	Speaking from Australias minor part in the coming world war, we have nothing to lose by backing America, they have always stood by us and we by them, because we are basically the same in a lot of ways, so it is natural whether the cause is right or wrong for similar cultures to band together if they are being threatened. I make no accusations or offer apologys for Americas covert actions since Teddy Roosevelt to now in world affairs, everything is done for a reason. In the coming years you will experience what your ancestors went through in WW2.

Aug 31, 2003, 10:32 pm	#27 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	On its way? I would say it has started.

Aug 31, 2003, 10:52 pm	#29 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	What is "war" in your opinion? Perhaps that should be a debate topic in itself.

Aug 31, 2003, 11:01 pm	#30 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	I think what is coming and is already here, is basically just a total collapse in World affairs, wars are just going to be part of it, you can get out there in the street and scream protests and blame everything and everyone for the mess we are in untill your hoarse, but it won't do anything good, if anything you will just make a juicy target.

Aug 31, 2003, 11:23 pm	#32 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	The revolution? I trust you mean we overthrow all western governments, set up Communist ones in their place, and then all join up together to fight Islamic fundementalist nations? Or maybe we all just lie around in the parks of the no longer functioning cities after the revolution (that you will bravely be in the frontline of I take it), and smoke Dope, and hope those nasty fundementalists don't ever come over.

Aug 31, 2003, 11:30 pm	#33 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	I think the fight should be against extremism of any stripe; religious, political, economic, etc... All wars are based on one or more of the above.

Sep 1, 2003, 12:06 am	#34 (permalink) (top)
Sodfather Igneous Magma Posts: 327	So, I'll take this as a sign that you guys aren't mature enough to stay on topic? It went from my topic to smoking ganja in abandoned cities...What the hell? :(

Sep 1, 2003, 01:48 am	#39 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	I personally do not believe there is a "norm". Moderation is the key.IMO I myself, do not see things as black or white. As far as who decides...WE DECIDE! Our human nature allows compromise as well as competition. Extremism begins to threaten when several extreme groups become one. That is what has happened. Bland and brainwashed lifestyle, you say? Don't most religions try to define social norms? It is the Religious and Political Extremists who have teamed up with the big Corporations and are imposing their brand of social "norms" on the rest of the world. Eventually they will destroy each other.(they always do) Our fight--or MY fight is to speed up that process.