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Geoff332 · Oct 28, 2003, 07:41 pm

Left Behind from the Boston Globe.

The article looks at racial differences on standardised tests (NAEP). It shows that white and asian students perform considerably better than black and hispanic students at high-school. The gap is not small -- the average black or hispanic student is four years behind the average white or asian student. The disparities are evident across the spectrum of performance.

Non-racial factors (parental income, education, location) account for around a third of the gap -- the other two thirds seems directly attributable to race. There has been some improvement over the last 25 years, but the most recent trends indicate that the gaps has stablised or may be widening again.

These scores are important. They are highly reliable (a technical term, that basically means that if you repeat the test under the same conditions, you will get the same results) and highly valid in predicting subsequent economic success.

The article isn't very clear on why this gap exists; but it does suggest one solution: improving the quality of teaching. It touches on restructuring both teacher education and school administration to improve the quality of teaching.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 28, 2003, 08:49 pm

All cultural aspects aside, it's because we still have a fairly viable de facto segregation going on here. White flight, of course, continues, and when the inner suburbs are finally diverse, the Whites fly further to the outer suburbs and the exurbs. Try New York or Los Angeles, where schools in the city and inner suburbs are literally divided by 90+% of Whites or 90+% of Blacks and Latinos, where Bussing propositions have been consistently shot down for 40 years or more.

Another of NYC's problems, now that we have Bloomberg, is that he's enforcing Bush's "No Child Left Behind" act, which lets people pull their kids out of failing schools (since they wouldn't let him have those vouchers) and let them go into any other schools within the system. Now, for a system of 1.1 million kids when 3/4ths of the schools are failing (thanks to lack of funding because of lack of city funds, something seen over and over all over America since the end of WWII) - imagine the ludicrous overcrowdedness of the "good" ones. There've been nice stories lately about schools needing to split their day four ways to accomodate 6,000+ kids.

As for Southern Blacks, we're talking about public schools in the states with literally the worst records for education in all the country. A no-brainer, there.

As for Asians, most Asians immigrated here after the US policy changed towards "we want people who are skilled (ie: were educated elsewhere)". In other words, they have all the benefits of never having had to start out where Blacks and Latinos are now, mainly because they weren't even allowed in the country in very large numbers until the 60's.

The Devil · Oct 28, 2003, 09:32 pm

Look at the cultures. Asians especially... they place a LOT of emphasis on school. Too much, even, to the point that Japan's massive suicide rate is directly attributed to intense school pressure.

Also, look at the background of the Latinos and Blacks in the US. The Blacks tend to be the ancestors of slaves, and the Latinos tend to be Mexican immigrants looking for a better place to go... the emphasis on schooling just isn't there.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 28, 2003, 11:00 pm

The emphasis on schooling was always there. It's just that the schools here are CRAP! CRAAAAAP!!!

**Sean** · Oct 29, 2003, 07:06 am

It depends where you live Rebel in my opinion, but having only graduated from high school 2 years ago, I can say that we've mostly been taught only how to pasts standardized tests. But that's another issue.

This is an issue everyone has a strong opinion about. I usually say that the differences are based on income level and location, but I question that after reading this article.

It sounds like it could have something to do with the family support for school at home like devil was getting at, but the other factors don't help of course (the urban distractions, poorly paid teachers, and unreliable "scattered schools").

If that's the case then it's going to be a long-lasting issue, seeing that it's sort of difficult to change a family's encouragement level.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 29, 2003, 08:56 am

The "urban distractions"?

**Sean** · Oct 29, 2003, 09:12 am

Let me clarify Rebel,

I was quoting from my memory of the article where it said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Second, insist on a safe and orderly environment in which respect for both students and adults is expected. The level of disorder and disruptive student behavior in many of our urban public schools is shocking. That's one reason why many private schools are able to pay their teachers one-third less than public schools and still attract a very good staff.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

RebelWithanAK · Oct 29, 2003, 12:49 pm

Part of the reason we had an environment were the students couldn't switch schools because it was deemed racist and anti-semitic when the teachers complained about "disruptive" students in the 60's and 70's, and wanted the ability to boot them out of the classes.

Where would they go?

Part - no, make that ALL - of the reason private schools are more orderly than public schools is because private schools can CHOOSE WHICH STUDENTS ATTEND THEM. Public schools are by their very nature public. We don't get that choice.

Impenitent · Oct 29, 2003, 01:05 pm

we need to bring back public reform schools for the disruptive children... install discipline in the public schools... we need more joe clarks...

RebelWithanAK · Oct 29, 2003, 01:09 pm

"Install discipline" Oh, yes, mighty saviour, like we don't already have schools where delinquents go. Our major problem is the fact that we've just now gotten DOWN to 34 students a class, can't pay our teachers shit, and have old, crumbling, over-crowded schools and 10 year old equipment. Bloomberg just put in a lot of reforms, but they're all circled around a theme: None of them cost the city hardly any money.

Impenitent · Oct 29, 2003, 04:32 pm

ak

that is what would work, and you said so yourself... reform schools for children who are discipline problems... if they won't behave in school, send them to reform school where the values of communism can be pounded into their brains... if they break the law, send them to jail... aha! another public institution... juvenile hall... if you want to thin down the classes, take the criminals out...

G. Adams · Oct 29, 2003, 06:41 pm

No offence impenitant, but your almost 'stream of conscience' style of writing is really distracting. i'm sure i'm not the only one who would appreciate a little more structure and argument to your posts.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 29, 2003, 07:50 pm

So your solution, Impenitent, for the overcrowded schools and vicariously the class and race divide on educational attainment is to... jail enough children until the class sizes diminish?

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 29, 2003, 10:12 pm

Feel sorry for the poor fellow that seeks truth in a society determined to impose fairness, that poor truth has been tortured until it is a weak thing with no power.

Get real guys, evolution applies to every environment. An environment that demands great physical strenght neglects other abilities. But who cares anyway? Look at individuals and stop worrying about which 'race' is getting cheated. Sure some races are a little behind in the traits that modern society values, but give it a century and that will be gone, if we do not impose a false reality for them to evolve into. So make everyone equal by treating them equal and allowing them to adapt and grow, or just shoot those that overachieve as a kindness.

Impenitent · Oct 29, 2003, 11:46 pm

ak

yes, stop treating juvenile criminals as if they've done nothing... far too often there is nothing done to juvenile offenders... they fill the schools and make it impossible for the other kids to learn and the teachers to teach... that would be an easy first step... but it is the hard way to go... enforce the laws

G?

distracting? because it doesn't agree with your ideas?

RebelWithanAK · Oct 29, 2003, 11:56 pm

He means it has a striking excess of periods. Did you ever learn any grammar in school?

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 30, 2003, 12:18 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
All cultural aspects aside, it's because we still have a fairly viable de facto segregation going on here. White flight, of course, continues, and when the inner suburbs are finally diverse, the Whites fly further to the outer suburbs and the exurbs. Try New York or Los Angeles, where schools in the city and inner suburbs are literally divided by 90+% of Whites or 90+% of Blacks and Latinos, where Bussing propositions have been consistently shot down for 40 years or more.

As for Southern Blacks, we're talking about public schools in the states with literally the worst records for education in all the country. A no-brainer, there.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
lol lol lol lol rotflmao
How can you both advocate that lack of education is the schools fault and then jump someone over punctuation. Can you say hypocrite...

Impenitent · Oct 30, 2003, 12:51 am

ak?

an excess of periods? try reading Nietzsche and tell me about philosophical punctuation...

G. Adams · Oct 30, 2003, 11:00 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
ak

yes, stop treating juvenile criminals as if they've done nothing... far too often there is nothing done to juvenile offenders... they fill the schools and make it impossible for the other kids to learn and the teachers to teach... that would be an easy first step... but it is the hard way to go... enforce the laws

G?

distracting? because it doesn't agree with your ideas?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

How can a style of writing not agree with my ideas? It has nothing to do with context.

All i'm asking is you restructure the way you post so its easier to follow. It like reading the mumblings of a mad person, it may be saying the most profound thing but because its mumbling I don't get it.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 30, 2003, 11:46 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (GreatWyrm of Babylon,)
How can you both advocate that lack of education is the schools fault and then jump someone over punctuation. Can you say hypocrite...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>Well, you could call me a hypocrite, but it's not like you'd be right or anything. Education is freakin' sacred, and should be known by all. I highly doubt Impenitent, with his particular brand of ultra-conservative views, was in any way disadvantaged during his formative years. So screw him and his overwrought ellipses.

Oct 28, 2003, 08:49 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	All cultural aspects aside, it's because we still have a fairly viable de facto segregation going on here. White flight, of course, continues, and when the inner suburbs are finally diverse, the Whites fly further to the outer suburbs and the exurbs. Try New York or Los Angeles, where schools in the city and inner suburbs are literally divided by 90+% of Whites or 90+% of Blacks and Latinos, where Bussing propositions have been consistently shot down for 40 years or more. Another of NYC's problems, now that we have Bloomberg, is that he's enforcing Bush's "No Child Left Behind" act, which lets people pull their kids out of failing schools (since they wouldn't let him have those vouchers) and let them go into any other schools within the system. Now, for a system of 1.1 million kids when 3/4ths of the schools are failing (thanks to lack of funding because of lack of city funds, something seen over and over all over America since the end of WWII) - imagine the ludicrous overcrowdedness of the "good" ones. There've been nice stories lately about schools needing to split their day four ways to accomodate 6,000+ kids. As for Southern Blacks, we're talking about public schools in the states with literally the worst records for education in all the country. A no-brainer, there. As for Asians, most Asians immigrated here after the US policy changed towards "we want people who are skilled (ie: were educated elsewhere)". In other words, they have all the benefits of never having had to start out where Blacks and Latinos are now, mainly because they weren't even allowed in the country in very large numbers until the 60's. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 28, 2003, 11:00 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	The emphasis on schooling was always there. It's just that the schools here are CRAP! CRAAAAAP!!! . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 29, 2003, 07:06 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Sean former overlord Location: New York Posts: 2,383	It depends where you live Rebel in my opinion, but having only graduated from high school 2 years ago, I can say that we've mostly been taught only how to pasts standardized tests. But that's another issue. This is an issue everyone has a strong opinion about. I usually say that the differences are based on income level and location, but I question that after reading this article. It sounds like it could have something to do with the family support for school at home like devil was getting at, but the other factors don't help of course (the urban distractions, poorly paid teachers, and unreliable "scattered schools"). If that's the case then it's going to be a long-lasting issue, seeing that it's sort of difficult to change a family's encouragement level. So it goes

Oct 29, 2003, 08:56 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	The "urban distractions"? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 29, 2003, 09:12 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Sean former overlord Location: New York Posts: 2,383	Let me clarify Rebel, I was quoting from my memory of the article where it said: </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Second, insist on a safe and orderly environment in which respect for both students and adults is expected. The level of disorder and disruptive student behavior in many of our urban public schools is shocking. That's one reason why many private schools are able to pay their teachers one-third less than public schools and still attract a very good staff.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> So it goes

Oct 28, 2003, 07:41 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Geoff332 Igneous Magma Location: New Zealand Posts: 309	Left Behind from the Boston Globe. The article looks at racial differences on standardised tests (NAEP). It shows that white and asian students perform considerably better than black and hispanic students at high-school. The gap is not small -- the average black or hispanic student is four years behind the average white or asian student. The disparities are evident across the spectrum of performance. Non-racial factors (parental income, education, location) account for around a third of the gap -- the other two thirds seems directly attributable to race. There has been some improvement over the last 25 years, but the most recent trends indicate that the gaps has stablised or may be widening again. These scores are important. They are highly reliable (a technical term, that basically means that if you repeat the test under the same conditions, you will get the same results) and highly valid in predicting subsequent economic success. The article isn't very clear on why this gap exists; but it does suggest one solution: improving the quality of teaching. It touches on restructuring both teacher education and school administration to improve the quality of teaching.

Oct 28, 2003, 09:32 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
The Devil Molten Ash Location: Canada Posts: 55	Look at the cultures. Asians especially... they place a LOT of emphasis on school. Too much, even, to the point that Japan's massive suicide rate is directly attributed to intense school pressure. Also, look at the background of the Latinos and Blacks in the US. The Blacks tend to be the ancestors of slaves, and the Latinos tend to be Mexican immigrants looking for a better place to go... the emphasis on schooling just isn't there.

Oct 29, 2003, 12:49 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Part of the reason we had an environment were the students couldn't switch schools because it was deemed racist and anti-semitic when the teachers complained about "disruptive" students in the 60's and 70's, and wanted the ability to boot them out of the classes. Where would they go? Part - no, make that ALL - of the reason private schools are more orderly than public schools is because private schools can CHOOSE WHICH STUDENTS ATTEND THEM. Public schools are by their very nature public. We don't get that choice. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 29, 2003, 01:05 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	we need to bring back public reform schools for the disruptive children... install discipline in the public schools... we need more joe clarks... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 29, 2003, 01:09 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	"Install discipline" Oh, yes, mighty saviour, like we don't already have schools where delinquents go. Our major problem is the fact that we've just now gotten DOWN to 34 students a class, can't pay our teachers shit, and have old, crumbling, over-crowded schools and 10 year old equipment. Bloomberg just put in a lot of reforms, but they're all circled around a theme: None of them cost the city hardly any money. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 29, 2003, 04:32 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	ak that is what would work, and you said so yourself... reform schools for children who are discipline problems... if they won't behave in school, send them to reform school where the values of communism can be pounded into their brains... if they break the law, send them to jail... aha! another public institution... juvenile hall... if you want to thin down the classes, take the criminals out... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 29, 2003, 06:41 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	No offence impenitant, but your almost 'stream of conscience' style of writing is really distracting. i'm sure i'm not the only one who would appreciate a little more structure and argument to your posts. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 29, 2003, 07:50 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	So your solution, Impenitent, for the overcrowded schools and vicariously the class and race divide on educational attainment is to... jail enough children until the class sizes diminish? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 29, 2003, 10:12 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	Feel sorry for the poor fellow that seeks truth in a society determined to impose fairness, that poor truth has been tortured until it is a weak thing with no power. Get real guys, evolution applies to every environment. An environment that demands great physical strenght neglects other abilities. But who cares anyway? Look at individuals and stop worrying about which 'race' is getting cheated. Sure some races are a little behind in the traits that modern society values, but give it a century and that will be gone, if we do not impose a false reality for them to evolve into. So make everyone equal by treating them equal and allowing them to adapt and grow, or just shoot those that overachieve as a kindness. Logical Fallicies Link

Oct 29, 2003, 11:46 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	ak yes, stop treating juvenile criminals as if they've done nothing... far too often there is nothing done to juvenile offenders... they fill the schools and make it impossible for the other kids to learn and the teachers to teach... that would be an easy first step... but it is the hard way to go... enforce the laws G? distracting? because it doesn't agree with your ideas? "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 29, 2003, 11:56 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	He means it has a striking excess of periods. Did you ever learn any grammar in school? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 30, 2003, 12:18 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) All cultural aspects aside, it's because we still have a fairly viable de facto segregation going on here. White flight, of course, continues, and when the inner suburbs are finally diverse, the Whites fly further to the outer suburbs and the exurbs. Try New York or Los Angeles, where schools in the city and inner suburbs are literally divided by 90+% of Whites or 90+% of Blacks and Latinos, where Bussing propositions have been consistently shot down for 40 years or more. As for Southern Blacks, we're talking about public schools in the states with literally the worst records for education in all the country. A no-brainer, there. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> lol lol lol lol rotflmao How can you both advocate that lack of education is the schools fault and then jump someone over punctuation. Can you say hypocrite... Logical Fallicies Link

Oct 30, 2003, 12:51 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	ak? an excess of periods? try reading Nietzsche and tell me about philosophical punctuation... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 30, 2003, 11:00 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) ak yes, stop treating juvenile criminals as if they've done nothing... far too often there is nothing done to juvenile offenders... they fill the schools and make it impossible for the other kids to learn and the teachers to teach... that would be an easy first step... but it is the hard way to go... enforce the laws G? distracting? because it doesn't agree with your ideas?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> How can a style of writing not agree with my ideas? It has nothing to do with context. All i'm asking is you restructure the way you post so its easier to follow. It like reading the mumblings of a mad person, it may be saying the most profound thing but because its mumbling I don't get it. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 30, 2003, 11:46 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (GreatWyrm of Babylon,) How can you both advocate that lack of education is the schools fault and then jump someone over punctuation. Can you say hypocrite...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Well, you could call me a hypocrite, but it's not like you'd be right or anything. Education is freakin' sacred, and should be known by all. I highly doubt Impenitent, with his particular brand of ultra-conservative views, was in any way disadvantaged during his formative years. So screw him and his overwrought ellipses. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.