Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Impenitent · Oct 30, 2003, 06:44 pm

G

nice ad homeniums... try to keep up...

ak

LOL...

if you only knew... but that's neither here nor there, you've already closed your mind...

education is freakin' sacred? which education is that? the one that preaches communist values? the one that preaches jesus values? the one that preaches science values? the one that preaches the value of freedom? there are many many ways to "educate" someone...

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 30, 2003, 07:35 pm

Rebel
Oh? Being conservative automaticlly sends you to the best schools? Or are you saying that being well educated makes you conservative? I do not think you thought out the ramifications of that one...

No wonder you always prefer to insult me over debating me, I would have your head on a platter in seconds...

Geoff332 · Oct 30, 2003, 09:17 pm

A review of the book from which the original article was sourced from The Nation.

Interesting points:

The authors are well known conservative apologists, not the liberals that seems to have been assumed by many people here.
It highlights more details in the data (eg the black/white gap is actually higher for children of college graduates; it is consistent in affluent black communities).
The authors are calling on schools to perform two difficult tasks -- cultural and academic education -- in many cases with reduced resources.
The authors blame bureaucratic problems without considering the origin of these problems; their solution to change the bureaucratic structures will inevitably fail if the underlying causes of these structures (in many cases the parents/communities) are unchanged.
The main focus on the book is to reduce the costs of education (ie reduce funding to schools). The reviewer argues that doing this, while simultaneously extending the role of schools to cultural education, is certain to fail.

castille · Oct 31, 2003, 07:18 am

Frankly I feel school is overrated.

I went to one of the worst schools in the state. 12th years selling drugs to 7th years was considered "soft". Our principle got chased out once with machetes.

What did it bring me? Well, apart from learning how to lockpick and rob a house (from the dear 12th years!), I learnt that education really is overrated in most cases. I also now know that less than 50% of home alarms link to security staff.

But most importantly? I learnt how to take care of myself.

Most of my education took place outside school. Whether on the playground, in friends houses, in the library (we didnt have a proper library actually, just a few shelves near the staff room), and by older people.

What if I had attended a private school? Well I would've come out another dull, dim-witted, bean-counting drone, without any creativity.

I believe in fact "crap schools" where violence/drug deals go on a lot is much better than a stuffy private school. The reason is that while private schools seem "good", they're actually pretty strict, and their discipline ensures students do not develop any vision, creativity, or team-building that is essential to survive in the world. Even though they're violent and stuff, it just means you gain more confidence and learn how to take care of yourself.

Most private school children are educated to work for streetsmart bosses who don't even have a school education.

Think about it.

G. Adams · Oct 31, 2003, 07:41 am

Although private schools give you a better chance at getting into University (i'm speaking from a UK perspective here), people from state schools who get to University tend to do better there, because they have become more self reliant, more socialised and don't want to live the lifestyle of their parents.

Its the getting to University from a state school thats the hard bit.

And I will admit I learnt a lot of things at my state school I wouldn't have at a private, independant or 'public' school (public school is diff in UK to state schools, they are places like Eton for princes and politicians children).

I learnt how lockpick most cars with coat hangers at 8, how to drive at 10, how to fight at about 7, how to take people out in one punch, how to build and throw homemade explosives...all good. Not to mention how to deal with people in authority so I don't ever have a detention. I only failed three times, and they all got me on report, so i guess they were unavoidable. But I did get away with humiliating a teacher in front of thirty kids (she was an idiot, called us idiots, so i got up and tore her apart. She took it to head of discipline, and he agreed that she was wrong to call us idiots, and thus I got the entire group out of detention)

But all this means nothing when coming to an employer. So your from where? Eton? Oh I came from there too old boy! .....

RebelWithanAK · Oct 31, 2003, 11:44 am

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (GreatWyrm of Babylon,)
Rebel
Oh? Being conservative automaticlly sends you to the best schools? Or are you saying that being well educated makes you conservative? I do not think you thought out the ramifications of that one...

No wonder you always prefer to insult me over debating me, I would have your head on a platter in seconds...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>I'm saying that nobody who came from a public school could be so damned inhumanitarian. THAT's what I'm saying.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 31, 2003, 11:50 am

Castille, no wonder school for you was "overrated." School for you was CRAP. But learning to take care of yourself does not get you into college, and your method takes twice as much effort and determination than most people are required coming from a good school. Either way, kids in your neighborhood are most likely not going to get far.

Hell, kids in my neighborhood aren't going to get far - but I had the benefit of having two college-educated parents and private lessons that got me into a 'magnet' public school and found me the resources needed to get into a good college. It's a self-serving prophecy - that much I can see - which is why I'm placing so much importance on improving general education, because there is none.

castille · Nov 1, 2003, 09:41 pm

No, I didn't get into a good college course, but there is always the chance to transfer (although considering I'm making more money at business than a business graduate, I'm not even bothering to).

G Adams: Learning to pick locks, defending yourself, etc actually does more for your career than you think. Like fighting would obviously teach you self-confidence, picking locks teaches you patience and calmness, selling drugs teaches you to be creative and be a good salesman (one of my friends persuaded a strict Christian smoking weed is in the bible).

The workplace is no longer looking for "textbook academic" graduates. In most companies, team-work and confidence are the most important factors. You won't say "I learnt to pick locks and fight!", but you can show your employer patience, confidence, and teamwork.

I've got friends who've been taken in for dozens of shoplifting/burgularly counts, yet today run successful businesses or work at jobs that pay them excellent rates (compared to most executives). I'm not a bible priest who tells kids to be nice, but I believe anyone from any sort of past can make a success out of themselves.

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Nov 5, 2003, 03:43 am

AK
Then how do you explain me, I am a product of public schools. lol

Oct 30, 2003, 06:44 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	G nice ad homeniums... try to keep up... ak LOL... if you only knew... but that's neither here nor there, you've already closed your mind... education is freakin' sacred? which education is that? the one that preaches communist values? the one that preaches jesus values? the one that preaches science values? the one that preaches the value of freedom? there are many many ways to "educate" someone... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 30, 2003, 07:35 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	Rebel Oh? Being conservative automaticlly sends you to the best schools? Or are you saying that being well educated makes you conservative? I do not think you thought out the ramifications of that one... No wonder you always prefer to insult me over debating me, I would have your head on a platter in seconds... Logical Fallicies Link

Oct 30, 2003, 09:17 pm	#23 (permalink) (top)
Geoff332 Igneous Magma Location: New Zealand Posts: 309	A review of the book from which the original article was sourced from The Nation. Interesting points: The authors are well known conservative apologists, not the liberals that seems to have been assumed by many people here. It highlights more details in the data (eg the black/white gap is actually higher for children of college graduates; it is consistent in affluent black communities). The authors are calling on schools to perform two difficult tasks -- cultural and academic education -- in many cases with reduced resources. The authors blame bureaucratic problems without considering the origin of these problems; their solution to change the bureaucratic structures will inevitably fail if the underlying causes of these structures (in many cases the parents/communities) are unchanged. The main focus on the book is to reduce the costs of education (ie reduce funding to schools). The reviewer argues that doing this, while simultaneously extending the role of schools to cultural education, is certain to fail.

Oct 31, 2003, 07:18 am	#24 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Frankly I feel school is overrated. I went to one of the worst schools in the state. 12th years selling drugs to 7th years was considered "soft". Our principle got chased out once with machetes. What did it bring me? Well, apart from learning how to lockpick and rob a house (from the dear 12th years!), I learnt that education really is overrated in most cases. I also now know that less than 50% of home alarms link to security staff. But most importantly? I learnt how to take care of myself. Most of my education took place outside school. Whether on the playground, in friends houses, in the library (we didnt have a proper library actually, just a few shelves near the staff room), and by older people. What if I had attended a private school? Well I would've come out another dull, dim-witted, bean-counting drone, without any creativity. I believe in fact "crap schools" where violence/drug deals go on a lot is much better than a stuffy private school. The reason is that while private schools seem "good", they're actually pretty strict, and their discipline ensures students do not develop any vision, creativity, or team-building that is essential to survive in the world. Even though they're violent and stuff, it just means you gain more confidence and learn how to take care of yourself. Most private school children are educated to work for streetsmart bosses who don't even have a school education. Think about it. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 31, 2003, 07:41 am	#25 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Although private schools give you a better chance at getting into University (i'm speaking from a UK perspective here), people from state schools who get to University tend to do better there, because they have become more self reliant, more socialised and don't want to live the lifestyle of their parents. Its the getting to University from a state school thats the hard bit. And I will admit I learnt a lot of things at my state school I wouldn't have at a private, independant or 'public' school (public school is diff in UK to state schools, they are places like Eton for princes and politicians children). I learnt how lockpick most cars with coat hangers at 8, how to drive at 10, how to fight at about 7, how to take people out in one punch, how to build and throw homemade explosives...all good. Not to mention how to deal with people in authority so I don't ever have a detention. I only failed three times, and they all got me on report, so i guess they were unavoidable. But I did get away with humiliating a teacher in front of thirty kids (she was an idiot, called us idiots, so i got up and tore her apart. She took it to head of discipline, and he agreed that she was wrong to call us idiots, and thus I got the entire group out of detention) But all this means nothing when coming to an employer. So your from where? Eton? Oh I came from there too old boy! ..... Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 31, 2003, 11:44 am	#26 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (GreatWyrm of Babylon,) Rebel Oh? Being conservative automaticlly sends you to the best schools? Or are you saying that being well educated makes you conservative? I do not think you thought out the ramifications of that one... No wonder you always prefer to insult me over debating me, I would have your head on a platter in seconds...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>I'm saying that nobody who came from a public school could be so damned inhumanitarian. THAT's what I'm saying. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 31, 2003, 11:50 am	#27 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Castille, no wonder school for you was "overrated." School for you was CRAP. But learning to take care of yourself does not get you into college, and your method takes twice as much effort and determination than most people are required coming from a good school. Either way, kids in your neighborhood are most likely not going to get far. Hell, kids in my neighborhood aren't going to get far - but I had the benefit of having two college-educated parents and private lessons that got me into a 'magnet' public school and found me the resources needed to get into a good college. It's a self-serving prophecy - that much I can see - which is why I'm placing so much importance on improving general education, because there is none. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Nov 1, 2003, 09:41 pm	#28 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	No, I didn't get into a good college course, but there is always the chance to transfer (although considering I'm making more money at business than a business graduate, I'm not even bothering to). G Adams: Learning to pick locks, defending yourself, etc actually does more for your career than you think. Like fighting would obviously teach you self-confidence, picking locks teaches you patience and calmness, selling drugs teaches you to be creative and be a good salesman (one of my friends persuaded a strict Christian smoking weed is in the bible). The workplace is no longer looking for "textbook academic" graduates. In most companies, team-work and confidence are the most important factors. You won't say "I learnt to pick locks and fight!", but you can show your employer patience, confidence, and teamwork. I've got friends who've been taken in for dozens of shoplifting/burgularly counts, yet today run successful businesses or work at jobs that pay them excellent rates (compared to most executives). I'm not a bible priest who tells kids to be nice, but I believe anyone from any sort of past can make a success out of themselves. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Nov 5, 2003, 03:43 am	#29 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	AK Then how do you explain me, I am a product of public schools. lol Logical Fallicies Link