How many more people must die to save face?

[viet124]

What are we really doing over there in Iraq? Our troops are dying each day and for what? We need to pull out and worry about our own people and government. How can America police the world and be the global helpline and still function fine? We might as well just give up half our paychecks to the government so we feel better when they have money to help everyone.

[Chaossaber314]

Pull completely out of Iraq and astronomically raise taxes. Let me guess. You vote Democrat.

Why, if the government is screwing up as badly as they are in Iraq, should we give them more money with which to mismanage?

[HelioPrime]

The answer as to why is because we, the voters let Washington rule the world.

As for what to do now, personally I think its to late. We don't have the capacity anymore to change anything but the face of the same demon.

[Milton Bradley]

Face could not be saved now even with the latest skin grafting technology.


Uncle Sammy is just plain tarnished these days.

[Technosoul]

Depression is it's own graveyard.

[viet124]

Quote by: HelioPrime The answer as to why is because we, the voters let Washington rule the world. As for what to do now, personally I think its to late. We don't have the capacity anymore to change anything but the face of the same demon.

Will you even vote the upcoming election? Is there nothing to believe in?

[Thanatos]

Quote by: viet124 Will you even vote the upcoming election? Is there nothing to believe in?

I will...but if anybody creatively counts ballots or jams call centers or rigs voting machines this time I think my next vote will be for Mr. Molotov and Mr. 12 gague. Seriously, this country is turning into a joke.

[Technosoul]

I know that the Bush republicans have really made things look bad, with the Iragi mess and with voting systems that Bush authorized to a Repubican company to build.

But with a major landslide victory we can change all that, they cannot block all the voters, the only reason the rigged elections were affective is because of the close count between the last canidates. Kerry was not a strong choice for the Democrats to have nominated.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: viet124 Will you even vote the upcoming election? Is there nothing to believe in?

My current major will allow me lots of freedom in choosing a job outside the US.

I like denmark. I'd rather jump ship then try and stay aboard and make due.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: HelioPrime My current major will allow me lots of freedom in choosing a job outside the US. I like denmark. I'd rather jump ship then try and stay aboard and make due.

Lots of interesting places in the world to work.

Hey, when you get to Denmark and work for thier population can you have them send us a check for all the public schooling us taxpayers spent on you?

We need the money to pay down our debt.

When I was young I wanted to work for National Geographic Mag. And journey to other countries taking photographs, I even when to a photographic collage to pursue my dream. Then I found out I also had to have a Major in Zoology, etc. before they would hire me as a Nature Photographer, and I could not fund my self as an independant, ended up photographing weddings for a while and then changed jobs.

And mostly only use my camera to photograph my cats.

I had lots of dreams but never could pull off the ones that wourld make me rich, so instead of writing books here I am posting junk on Volconvo.

Garmmer was too boring anyway.

I kinda find it fun to debate poltics but in my reality what those baboons do in Washington has little or no affect on me personally, to hell with the establishment, the system, the American Dream, the lawyers and doctors and preachers, employers and bankers, I just concentrate on having fun, and doing things I find interesting.

I spent most of the afternoon playing some of my oldies music on the CD player and danced around the living room all by my self, while my cats watched me with their wide-eyed expressions.

I rented a booth to where I can sell vintage collectables to people, which I buy on the weekends at garage sales. That is interesting, fun, gives me a purpose, and it is not making me rich. (but I come close to breaking even cash wise). I learned how to do that without a single "how too" book. If I had a million bucks I would still do it.

It is odd that other people work hard a good paying jobs and they buy lots of stuff and then it all ends up at some garage sale, or their kids sell it at a garage sale after their parents die off. Sooner or later it all comes to me for a cheap price.

Some lady just came to my booth and paid $12.00 for a used iron that was made back in the early 1950s, it was in like-new condition and she was so happy "you do not know how long I have been looking for this" she told me. I had found the vintage iron (cloths iron) at a rummage sale for $1.00. Of course I also have things priced in the one hundred dollar range, but people prefer the more affordable things that cost under $20.00

I just sold a skull with Ram's horns for $15.00. A KISS doll. A koo koo clock made in Germany, a book of photographs of our National Parks, a metal Elephant toy bank, and a framed photo of Sitting Bear (indian).
And a bag of Hot Wheels.

And a wood bookcase for $45.00 Yes, turning trash into teasures.

And it's fun fun fun. So I have pursued happyness and got it. What more can an American do to honor the Consitution? That is the key, do what you find interesting and then you will be happy and then you will not have to worry about who to blame for being unhappy. It is your right.

[viet124]

Quote by: Thanatos I will...but if anybody creatively counts ballots or jams call centers or rigs voting machines this time I think my next vote will be for Mr. Molotov and Mr. 12 gague. Seriously, this country is turning into a joke.

Have you ever lived in any other countries? It may be no joke there. but it's also no smiles either.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: viet124 Have you ever lived in any other countries? It may be no joke there. but it's also no smiles either.

I like to operate under the grand delusion that this isn't as good as it gets. If we're going to have idiot presidents they should at least be fairly elected.

[viet124]

Fair election means they need to rethink the voting system.

[grandpa]

Quote by: viet124 Fair election means they need to rethink the voting system.

"Fair Elections" is kind of an oxymoron.

Grandpa h.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Thanatos I will...but if anybody creatively counts ballots or jams call centers or rigs voting machines this time I think my next vote will be for Mr. Molotov and Mr. 12 gague. Seriously, this country is turning into a joke.

If I lived there, I'd be in the same mentality... you can only put up with so much corruption before those in power have to face the consequences at the hands of the people.

Just remember.... there's more US Citizens then there are US politicians.... the people can and will win in the end if they have enough drive to do so.

Myself if I was part of the revolution, I wouldn't stop until there was nothing left of the current government. If they pleaded to the public for a sit down and talk deals, that just shows they are panicing and are going to loose their power. If you stopped and sat down to talk with this current government, all that will happen is the same as before.... make it look like there is change, but it stays the same.

The government requires one big flush... like deleting a corrupt file and reformatting.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Technosoul But with a major landslide victory we can change all that, they cannot block all the voters,

There one of my main beefs.... they shouldn't be blocking any voters period, let alone rigging elections to stay in power.... I hear Bush and others complaining about the President of Pakistan and how he rigged his election and other processes to remain in power..... yet Bush did it twice himself.... such hypocracy.

[Sanity41]

Everyone seems to be settled now on where you stand politically and what you support and what you don't. My question for all is this:
While we can whine and criticize where we have been and are today, what do you offer to address a very real dilema we are dealing with that everyone seems to dodge? That is, how do we deal with a barbaric dark ages cultural entity that does not appreciate our anything goes freedoms in the West? They do not value kindness or mutual respect, only that we buy into their program or die. I look forward to some good logic here folks.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Sanity41 Everyone seems to be settled now on where you stand politically and what you support and what you don't. My question for all is this: While we can whine and criticize where we have been and are today, what do you offer to address a very real dilema we are dealing with that everyone seems to dodge? That is, how do we deal with a barbaric dark ages cultural entity that does not appreciate our anything goes freedoms in the West? They do not value kindness or mutual respect, only that we buy into their program or die. I look forward to some good logic here folks.

There is only a select group or two out of the entire Muslim culture which is extrmeist in their views. They are no more barbaric than us.... just barbaric in different ways then us.

And whoever said they have to assemilate to our way of life?

They never wanted us all to die for the last couple of centuries, why all of a sudden do the extremist want us to all die now? I'd suggest checking out the background of what has caused all this to occur just recently, and then the solution will be obvious.

[Sanity41]

Please read history on Muslim activity from 800 to 1100 AD. You will find that the goals were the same back then as they are now. They didn't just pop up and start all this just based on recent historical problems, it has been the same goal for centuries. They do have a mandate to convert the world to Islam and by force and death if necessary.
If you interface with westerners that have lived in the middle east over the past 40 years, you will learn this is taught daily and outwardly to children in school. If you are not a Muslim you are and infidel, period. Have you noticed that so called "Moderate" Muslims are not really stepping up and saying thier radical factions are wrong and try to quell them?

I don't think asking them not to blow us up and kill us is asking them to assimilate our way of life. Co-existence and tolerance is not a part of their vocabulary. The attacks go way back prior to 911, so this is not a new situation. The US most definitely has errored in many of it's activities for sure, but it is easy to play Monday morning quarterback after the fact, especially if you were not there to understand decisions that were made and why.

The goal of the extremists is not a new one, but the onset of money to finance it is. (Oil money and Bin Laden fortune)
What do you think will happen if we pull out suddenly? This is an absolute no win situation and we would probably agree going into Iraq was a mistake to begin with, but I really want to know what the "Obvious Solution" is you refer to?
All hell will break loose in the middle east if the US pulls out suddenly, and not that our popularity is good anyway, it would be a global nightmare if we allow a virtual bloodbath in an entire region to ignite. Simplistic thinking is not going to cut it with an extremely complex situation like this.
I hope you know that should Canadian's ever become the target of this violent hatred at this level, who would defend you to the end.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Sanity41 Please read history on Muslim activity from 800 to 1100 AD. You will find that the goals were the same back then as they are now. They didn't just pop up and start all this just based on recent historical problems, it has been the same goal for centuries.

If this was the case, then how come many of these evil nations took in many jews after WWII prior to Israel existing? How come there are still Christians in some of these nations which are majority Muslim? You'd think by the above mentality that these guys wouldn't tollerate these people being in their countries:

The Associated Press: Exhibition Honors Muslims Who Saved Jews

Tears welling in his eyes, an elderly Holocaust survivor on Thursday embraced the son of the Albanian man who saved him from the Nazi death camps, highlighting the little-known role played by European Muslims in helping Jews during World War II. The two met for the first time at a photography exhibition at Yad Vashem, Israel's official Holocaust memorial, honoring Albanians who sheltered Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi persecution. Albania, a tiny European country with a Muslim majority, sheltered about 1,000 Jews who, except for one family, survived Nazi occupation, according to officials. "This is a very unique story," said Yehudit Shendar, the exhibition's curator. Though Islam has an anti-Jewish image, these were "Muslims who endangered their own lives to save Jews," she said. Six million Jews were killed by the Nazis during World War II. Albanians sheltered between 600 and 1,800 Jewish refugees, risking death or imprisonment, officials said. At the end of the war, Albania was the only European country with a larger Jewish population than before the war.

But I suppose actually hearing some news that sheds muslims in a good light would ruin the US's plans of making them out as evil as the Jews were for Germany.... which is exactly what's happening.

They do have a mandate to convert the world to Islam and by force and death if necessary.

Christians are no better, as their own assemilation of many countries in Africa, most of the Americas, and many other parts of the world, by force mind you, proves this isn't just a Muslim trait. And being all so-called nice now a days doesn't exclude what happened in the past, nor is it proof that Christians won't go and do this again down the road.

If you interface with westerners that have lived in the middle east over the past 40 years, you will learn this is taught daily and outwardly to children in school. If you are not a Muslim you are and infidel, period. Have you noticed that so called "Moderate" Muslims are not really stepping up and saying thier radical factions are wrong and try to quell them?

Same thing with Christians and "Heathens" and "Sinners".... I see no difference

In fact, from the link above:

"My father was a devout Muslim," Enver Sheqer said. "He believed that to save one life is to enter paradise." He said his father had to help Baruchowic because of the Albanian code of "Besa," which means "to keep the promise." The exhibition is named after that code and features black and white photographs of Albanians holding family photos and awards honoring their heroism. Israel has honored 63 Albanians as "Righteous Among the Nations," a title granted to non-Jews who helped Jews escape Nazi persecution.

I don't think asking them not to blow us up and kill us is asking them to assimilate our way of life. Co-existence and tolerance is not a part of their vocabulary.

The above proves this wrong. And perhaps they would stop blowing "Us" up if we stopped meddling into their affairs and blaming them for all our problems.

Bush is the one who shot his mouth about a Holy Crusade against the Evil Doers, which he ment the Muslism.... just like he shot his mouth to Iran about WWIII..... he's the only one egging this whole damn thing on.

He calls for a Crusade, they call for a Holy War... sounds fair to me.

The attacks go way back prior to 911, so this is not a new situation. The US most definitely has errored in many of it's activities for sure, but it is easy to play Monday morning quarterback after the fact, especially if you were not there to understand decisions that were made and why. The goal of the extremists is not a new one, but the onset of money to finance it is. (Oil money and Bin Laden fortune) What do you think will happen if we pull out suddenly? This is an absolute no win situation and we would probably agree going into Iraq was a mistake to begin with, but I really want to know what the "Obvious Solution" is you refer to? All hell will break loose in the middle east if the US pulls out suddenly,

All hell has already broken loose.

and not that our popularity is good anyway, it would be a global nightmare if we allow a virtual bloodbath in an entire region to ignite. Simplistic thinking is not going to cut it with an extremely complex situation like this. I hope you know that should Canadian's ever become the target of this violent hatred at this level, who would defend you to the end.

Ourselves, as well as our allies. You guys still seem to have this image that Canada doesn't have a decent military buget, let alone technologically par with the US, the UK, Australia and many other countries.

I am not blind to the concept of us being attacked, because it was already "Attempted" and failed. Will it happen again? Sure it will.... every country will be attacked once in a while sometime through time due to many reasons.... trying to think you can police your country with 100% certainty is a fools mission.

Also, Canada doesn't have the rap sheet of back to back unjustified invasions of other nations for oil profits or cheap labour.... let alone "To bring Democracy to other nations." ~ AKA we usually don't meddle into other's affairs unless asked. We're stuck in Afghanistan right now because of US pressure back in the day of "If you're not with us, then you're with the Terrorists" line..... yeah.... isn't that in itself a terroristic statement?

Our mission in Afghanistan is up in 2009 and there are no official plans of extending the mission past that. The closest thing we're doing is holding a vote to see if we will extend it or not.

Considdering that Canadian Forces in NATO are doing the majority of the Fighting in Afghanistan compared to other nations there, if we hauled our asses out of there, the mission will be a failure, unless the other nations who haven't stepped up, step up.

We can and will hold our own with or without the US's assistance.

And before someone goes on another banter about how Canada get's most of their stuff from the US, please keep in mind that you guys get most of your oil from us, you guys get most of your fresh water from us, our dollar value is now beyond your's, and as it goes for imports from other nations, we get most of ours now from China, US second, if that, besides many other countries we are dealing with, including now South America.

Honestly, you Americans need to get this delusion in your heads cleared up that no other country can survive without you guys.... you're not that great.... nor is any other country.

You're just another rich kid student amongst everybody else in the school.