NY Governor whines about criticism of his proposal to give licenses to illegals

[Chancellor]

Blame it on the vast right wing conspiracy! No, wait, can't do that because some of the critics are not exactly right wing.

The Buffalo News: City & Region: Spitzer unbowed by critics of license plan

From the article:

The governor, reacting once again to the controversy surrounding his executive order, said in Buffalo on Wednesday that new congressional fears that passports may have to supplant New York driver’s licenses on domestic airliners was “typical Bush administration rhetoric.”

“What we have done will have absolutely no impact on the validity of a New York State driver’s license in terms of . . . getting on an airplane,” he told reporters at Babeville* (formerly The Church) in downtown Buffalo.

Meanwhile, Spitzer continues to ratchet up his own rhetoric over his plan to issue driver’s licenses to illegal aliens who can produce a valid passport and meet other criteria. He says his plan will enhance security by identifying those in the country unlawfully.


See also: Politics Now: Spitzer attacks critics, again


*For those of you who are unfamiliar with Buffalo, Babeville is the former downtown Buffalo church where Ani DiFranco's Righteous Babe Records is located.

[Osborn F Enready]

He should be impeached, or if he "refuses to step down or cease and desist" drug out of his office, and placed on the curb with the rest of the garbage.

[notworthabean]

Yep-he already tried to blackmail uncle joe into getting some bill he wants passed-haha but he got f**ked back-hard.

[Dieval]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready He should be impeached, or if he "refuses to step down or cease and desist" drug out of his office, and placed on the curb with the rest of the garbage.

Interesting...I agree with you.

[rmnunez]

Why is it believed Spitzer's plans "to issue driver’s licenses to illegal aliens who can produce a valid passport and meet other criteria" would be bad? Would it be better if such drivers operated vehicles unidentified without licenses?

I think xenophobes worry since then the undocumented would be 'documented' they'd somehow become irremovable or gain whatever precious 'rights' they lack as "illegals". This is absurd, the term "undocumented" refers to their manner of crossing, without any record. Someone who crossed unlawfully with a valid passport and visa, would still be an "illegal" alien due to his undocumented crossing. Getting a driver's license doesn't change the condition in which he crossed the border.

[Osborn F Enready]

Driving on roads built and paid for by US taxpayers, is a privilidge, which is why we have a licensing system, testing and fines and penalties.

Illegal immigrants are not citizens, nor do the funds the earn contribute to repairing those roads, or building new ones to facillitate their increased demands.

It is like expecting a "license" to drive someone else car, without paying for gas or wear on the equipment, while being here illegally.

Do insurance companies insure illegal immigrants?

Offering licenses to illegals is like dangling a carrot right across the border fence.... it is an enticement to break the law, gain illegal entry (while avoiding the armed and patrolling border guards) and forge an identity, in a nation they respect so little they can't apply themselves to get citizenship legally.

The U.S. built its system, and we are happy to welcome immigrants who follow the law to enter the nation. But, Mexico and other nations have an obligation to provide jobs, futures and healthcare for their own people, and it is morally and legally wrong to expect any sovereign nation to accept these practices as "reasonable".

[rmnunez]

Visitors in the US can operate cars with their own driver's license and if they are residents they just use the local procedure. Residency, not citizenship, is the conditioner.

[The Decider]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Driving on roads built and paid for by US taxpayers, is a privilidge, which is why we have a licensing system, testing and fines and penalties. Illegal immigrants are not citizens, nor do the funds the earn contribute to repairing those roads, or building new ones to facillitate their increased demands..

Really? In many states sales and gasoline taxes (plus toll fees) help pay for roads. Anybody, legal or illegal resident, buying stuff or filling up their car with gas contributes to road building and maintenance. Local property taxes also defray the cost of roads. Anybody, legal or illegal resident, who buys a house must pay property taxes. Only income taxes show a disparity, but then again America has thousands and thousands of legal residents who don't pay their fair share of income taxes, whether by understating their income or hiding money in off-shore accounts or getting a Republican president to give them big fat tax cuts. So illegal residents aren't alone in cheating Uncle Sam of his due. And besides, most libertarians want to abolish the income tax anyway as "unconstitutional."

So that leaves us with sales, gas, and local property taxes, all of which illegal residents pay in full.

The Morning News-Immigration: Perception v. Reality

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Do insurance companies insure illegal immigrants?.

Yes, in fact, according to a recent Wall Street Journal article (see link below), automobile insurance companies in most states will insure anybody to drive. They're making a killing in the illegal market. Why is that? If, as some argue, illegals drive our roads without bothering to get insurance, why does the American insurance industry go hog wild to sell them insurance---and succeed? Those INSURED illegals seem quite willing to reimburse automobile accidents.

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archi...?ArtNum=186030

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Offering licenses to illegals is like dangling a carrot right across the border fence.... it is an enticement to break the law

Employment is the enticement for immigration, not a driver's license. Nobody has a problem getting some form of ID. However, a license would help the government keep track of the illegals (like it helps keep track of us all). Illegals will have to pay license and registration fees for the cars they already operate. They'll have to get safety inspections and smog checks. They MUST buy auto insurance whether they want to, or can afford to, or not, just like all of us.

But I suppose that will never happen. The status quo will remain--unlicensed drivers, fewer insured, no additional government fees...nada. Meanwhile, the legal Hispanic population in the West and South continues to grow. That means legal Hispanic voters will become increasingly influential in such key presidential primary states as California, Texas, Florida, and a good many smaller states in between. The hardcore opponents to any compromise on Hispanic immigration issues do not have time on their side.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/us...hispanics.html

[grandpa]

Quote by: The Decider In many states sales and gasoline taxes (plus toll fees) help pay for roads.

No matter what you say, what angle you use, they simply do not care. They love the government and depersonalize those who come here without their permission. Also, most of them are conservative, and want to see people punished, families broken up, etc. They'll ignore the racist history that formed America's borders, lump every illegal immnigrant in with various terrorists or gangs. They'll ignore teh issue of how calling them "illegals" sounds quite racist.

They'll dream up any kind of angle imaginable, including saying the US government's expansionism and invasions are irrelevant when discussing borders. You could point out the free flow of capital investments between nations and how corporations, money and other institutions are taking precedence over human lives and interests. You could point out how deporting people is a coercive act and objectionable in its own way, but they won't hear it.

They'll just say "we're a nation of laws," and that argument supposedly defends itself. Anything to kick filthy, poor foreigners in the face.

Grandpa h.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: rmnunez Why is it believed Spitzer's plans "to issue driver’s licenses to illegal aliens who can produce a valid passport and meet other criteria" would be bad? Would it be better if such drivers operated vehicles unidentified without licenses?

Merely having a license does not improve one's ability to drive. If one is in the United States illegally then one is unable to produce a valid passport and meet other criteria.

I think xenophobes worry since then the undocumented would be 'documented' they'd somehow become irremovable or gain whatever precious 'rights' they lack as "illegals"

Well, liberals would certainly look at this as removing their status as "illegal."

This is absurd, the term "undocumented" refers to their manner of crossing, without any record. Someone who crossed unlawfully with a valid passport and visa, would still be an "illegal" alien due to his undocumented crossing. Getting a driver's license doesn't change the condition in which he crossed the border.

Illegal is illegal regardless of whether someone has a valid passport and visa. And if one has a valid passport and visa then why would one need to cross into the country illegally? This move toward giving licenses to illegals is nothing more than a leftist attempt to set aside federal immigration laws.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Driving on roads built and paid for by US taxpayers, is a privilidge, which is why we have a licensing system, testing and fines and penalties. Illegal immigrants are not citizens, nor do the funds the earn contribute to repairing those roads, or building new ones to facillitate their increased demands.

Neither do millions of Americans who don't pay taxes for other reasons, then. If you don't pay a certain amount in taxes each year I guess your driver's license should be revoked, then, right?

Offering licenses to illegals is like dangling a carrot right across the border fence.... it is an enticement to break the law, gain illegal entry (while avoiding the armed and patrolling border guards) and forge an identity, in a nation they respect so little they can't apply themselves to get citizenship legally.

What does getting a driver's license do towards citizenship? Answer: Nothing.

Quote by: Chancellor Merely having a license does not improve one's ability to drive.

What does this have to do with someone's legal/illegal status?

If one is in the United States illegally then one is unable to produce a valid passport and meet other criteria.

You make your opponents argument. If these are, as the article says, only given to people with valid passport, then problem solved, according to you, since illegals wouldn't have one.

Well, liberals would certainly look at this as removing their status as "illegal."

Have any support for that? Of course not. In the future, refrain from stating your opponents' arguments for them.

Illegal is illegal regardless of whether someone has a valid passport and visa. And if one has a valid passport and visa then why would one need to cross into the country illegally?

Because a passport does not allow a person to work, and these immigrants are coming here for jobs (you know, like your ancestors did?)

This move toward giving licenses to illegals is nothing more than a leftist attempt to set aside federal immigration laws.

Ummm how? Would federal immigration laws cease to exist? How does a drivers license advance anything in the way of citizenship or immigration status?

[ZNFYRH]

The bigger problem here is that the governor of New York has been unable to explain to New York citizens why his executive order is a good thing... why it's beneficial.

He has been consistently unable to address those kinds of questions.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: ZNFYRH The bigger problem here is that the governor of New York has been unable to explain to New York citizens why his executive order is a good thing... why it's beneficial.

Nonsense. He has elaborated several reasons.

R News: As It Happens, Where It Happens

The governor says it's all for the sake of security.

"I’m responsible for security in this state,” Spitzer says. “This is the way to ensure security. You speak to the security experts, they will tell you we need to know who is here, and know who is driving. Insurance rates will go down, traffic accidents will go down, (and) people will drive with legitimate and accurate identification. That's what motivates this."

What would that be besides explaining to New Yorkers why this is a good thing?

[ZNFYRH]

tivodan

You should know better!

Look at what you quoted.

How will having a license make accidents go down?

Also, in my opinion, Spitzer is doing this to piss in the faces of the State Senate that has worked hard to block him at every turn. Senator Bruno is a major pain in the ass who has had his fingers in all aspects of legal and illegal business in the Capital Region for quite some time. This licensing issue is one thing that the Senate can't touch.

What's more, if you look closely at what this does is it makes it possible for non-U.S. citizens with a passport to get a license.

If they are here with a passport, are they really illegal immigrants?

The kind of illegal immigrant that has no legitimate form of I.D. still can't get a license.

This proposal is no different than vacationing in a country and acquiring a valid license to drive in that country during the time of your vacation.

Spitzer isn't actually changing any policy... he's doing this because since he was elected he hasn't been able to deliver on any of his campaign promises.

He was the Attorney General and was used to getting things done without having to answer to anyone. Now, his attitude is one that causes resistance in the State Senate and they block him from doing the things he said he would do.

Yesterday he was on the news saying that he doesn't listen to the polls. The moron forgot that he listened to one poll... an official poll that asked all citizens of New York who they wanted to be governor.

The proposal will be pushed through on executive order.
Spitzer will fail to be able to show the corollary between a license and fewer accidents (because there isn't one).
The State Senate will be pissed that Spitzer was able to make policy without their approval (meaning: ability to stop him).
Spitzer will prance around trying to use this to show that he's making changes as governor.

More politics.
More nonsense.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: ZNFYRH How will having a license make accidents go down?

I don't know, I was under the impression that to get a driver's license a person had to display a minimum standard of competence in operating a motor vehicle, both on a test of the statutes and an on-the-road driving test... I could be wrong though, maybe you can tell me what the new process is...:rolleyes:

If one person gets a license as a result of this, one more person will have a minimum level of competence in our rules of the road, and therefore, however marginally, accidents will go down. It's an easy argument to make, otherwise no one would be licensed.

Also, in my opinion, Spitzer is doing this to piss in the faces of the State Senate that has worked hard to block him at every turn. Senator Bruno is a major pain in the ass who has had his fingers in all aspects of legal and illegal business in the Capital Region for quite some time. This licensing issue is one thing that the Senate can't touch.

Maybe so. Irrelevant, though.

What's more, if you look closely at what this does is it makes it possible for non-U.S. citizens with a passport to get a license. If they are here with a passport, are they really illegal immigrants? The kind of illegal immigrant that has no legitimate form of I.D. still can't get a license. This proposal is no different than vacationing in a country and acquiring a valid license to drive in that country during the time of your vacation.

So what's the problem with it then? Just like Chancellor, you make your opponents' argument for them.

He was the Attorney General and was used to getting things done without having to answer to anyone. Now, his attitude is one that causes resistance in the State Senate and they block him from doing the things he said he would do.

We're talking about the State Senate of NY. Anything that forces them to get off their asses and do anything besides kiss Joe Bruno and Shel Siver's asses will face resistance.

Spitzer's attitude, according to you, is that he likes "getting things done". If you are familiar with NYS government you know this attitude is always going to face resistance.

Yesterday he was on the news saying that he doesn't listen to the polls. The moron forgot that he listened to one poll... an official poll that asked all citizens of New York who they wanted to be governor.

That's not a poll, that's an election. A poll is quite a bit different.

The proposal will be pushed through on executive order. Spitzer will fail to be able to show the corollary between a license and fewer accidents (because there isn't one).

With specific regard to illegal immigrants, I don't know, but there is certainly a mountain of evidence that having drivers be licensed reduces accidents, and it is plainly silly to say otherwise.

The State Senate will be pissed that Spitzer was able to make policy without their approval (meaning: ability to stop him). Spitzer will prance around trying to use this to show that he's making changes as governor. More politics. More nonsense.

Perhaps, but also irrelevant.

You said:

The bigger problem here is that the governor of New York has been unable to explain to New York citizens why his executive order is a good thing... why it's beneficial. He has been consistently unable to address those kinds of questions.

And I showed how and where he addressed those questions with answers.

The fact that you disagree politically with those answers does not mean he hasn't answered them, he obviously has.

[ZNFYRH]

Quote by: tivodan I don't know, I was under the impression that to get a driver's license a person had to display a minimum standard of competence in operating a motor vehicle, both on a test of the statutes and an on-the-road driving test... I could be wrong though, maybe you can tell me what the new process is...

That doesn't mean accidents will go down.

For quite some time there has been criticism of the New York State licensing tests... fourth graders can pass them.

Passing a test does not make a safe driver.

Quote by: tivodan So what's the problem with it then? Just like Chancellor, you make your opponents' argument for them.

What opponent?

I'm discussing and commenting on this... not debating it.

Quote by: tivodan That's not a poll, that's an election. A poll is quite a bit different.

An election is nothing more than a poll whose results have power.

Ever hear the word "polls" used in relation to an election.

The very definition of "poll" is "a counting of votes."

So I say again... for someone who says they don't care about polls, Spitzer is an idiot.

Quote by: tivodan but there is certainly a mountain of evidence that having drivers be licensed reduces accidents, and it is plainly silly to say otherwise.

What mountain is this?

If you take the time to read the various DMV web pages of the higher population states (New York, Texas, California, etc.) you will see that it is driver training, not testing, that reduces accidents.

You do not require any form of class or training to take the licensing test in New York.

You can easily find the various DMV sites yourself...

Also there's:

ScienceDirect - Accident Analysis & Prevention : The strength of graduated drivers license programs and fatalities among teen drivers and passengers

Quote by: tivodan And I showed how and where he addressed those questions with answers. The fact that you disagree politically with those answers does not mean he hasn't answered them, he obviously has.

You didn't show anything.

You showed where he gave the equivalent of a one word answer with no explanation. Is that good enough for you?

As head of an executive branch of government, and representative to the people of the government, one of his jobs is to explain government action and policy to the public in a way that they can understand what is going on. They don't have to agree, but they should understand.

As an example, people may love or hate Bill Clinton. But I think he was an excellent President for the single reason that no matter what was going on, he explained it clearly and simply so that people understood. That way, when they were opposed to something, they were fully informed.

Spitzer is failing in that responsibility by not taking the time to educate his constituents. He takes another ten steps back by even saying that the opinions of his constituents don't matter to him.

[The Decider]

Quote by: ZNFYRH What's more, if you look closely at what this does is it makes it possible for non-U.S. citizens with a passport to get a license. If they are here with a passport, are they really illegal immigrants? The kind of illegal immigrant that has no legitimate form of I.D. still can't get a license.

Illegal immigrants are still citizens of other nations. They can get foreign passports or, more likely, they already have them. The state of New York will, for the first time, have real documents for every illegal immigrant who wishes to drive. That's more than the state has now.

Quote by: ZNFYRH Spitzer isn't actually changing any policy..

Really? New York State currently allows holders of foreign passports to get NY state driver's licenses?

Quote by: ZNFYRH Yesterday he was on the news saying that he doesn't listen to the polls. The moron forgot that he listened to one poll... an official poll that asked all citizens of New York who they wanted to be governor.

Right. The people of New York chose Spitzer and they will have the opportunity to unseat him in about four years. We'll see if this issue means anything by then.

Quote by: ZNFYRH Spitzer will fail to be able to show the corollary between a license and fewer accidents (because there isn't one).

Perhaps you could back up this claim with evidence that driving tests are unnecessary?

[ZNFYRH]

Quote by: Decider Illegal immigrants are still citizens of other nations.

And in order to enter this country legally they need to possess proof of citizenship of that nation and authorization to travel. The passport is the most common means of establishing both, but there are other methods.

What makes an illegal immigrant an illegal immigrant is that they crossed the borders into this country without presenting the legally required documentation.

Kinda stupid to enter the country illegally when you have a passport.

Quote by: Decider New York State currently allows holders of foreign passports to get NY state driver's licenses?

Holders of foreign passports on vacation can get a temporary license.
Holders of foreign passports and a visa for temporary residence can get a temporary license.
Legal immigrants, who are not yet citizens but are permanent residents with documentation, can get a license.

Quote by: Decider Right. The people of New York chose Spitzer and they will have the opportunity to unseat him in about four years. We'll see if this issue means anything by then.

I'm sure it will. Spitzer was a strong candidate and a potentially welcome change to New York politics, which had become, at best, stagnant under Pataki. Not caring what the voters think won't bode well for Spitzer.

Quote by: Decider Perhaps you could back up this claim with evidence that driving tests are unnecessary?

I addressed that already.

Quote by: ZNFYRH If you take the time to read the various DMV web pages of the higher population states (New York, Texas, California, etc.) you will see that it is driver training, not testing, that reduces accidents. ... You can easily find the various DMV sites yourself...

I'm not going to copy and paste the links to every DMV in the country.

[The Decider]

Quote by: ZNFYRH And in order to enter this country legally they need to possess proof of citizenship of that nation and authorization to travel. The passport is the most common means of establishing both, but there are other methods. What makes an illegal immigrant an illegal immigrant is that they crossed the borders into this country without presenting the legally required documentation. Kinda stupid to enter the country illegally when you have a passport.

However, not presenting a passport is not the same as not having one to present. And not owning a passport is not the same as applying for one at the nearest consulate in the United States. Getting a passport is easy.

Quote by: ZNFYRH Holders of foreign passports on vacation can get a temporary license. Holders of foreign passports and a visa for temporary residence can get a temporary license. Legal immigrants, who are not yet citizens but are permanent residents with documentation, can get a license.

So the policy change involves illegal immigrants. Hence there is a policy change--no requirement to show permanent residence.

Quote by: ZNFYRH