NY Governor whines about criticism of his proposal to give licenses to illegals

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I would have to agree with Lou Dobbs on this issue. This is just a ploy to get more illegal voters, and provide enough voter scam to discredit or tilt the elections in favor of one of the two major parties, or another. More corruption, more lies, more dishonest propaganda coming from our government officials...... New Yorkers should be ashamed for tolerating such nonsense. Have they ever heard of impeachment?

This is New York State - where a person only has to be a resident for 24 hours before running for the U. S. Senate.

Some of us in New York State do, in fact, object to the very notion of giving any kind of identification or privilege to illegals:

Politics Now: Spitzer attacks critics, again

[J. Askiloupos]

Why is this man even being given attention, let alone the mayorship of one of the United States' greatest cities? These people are referred to as "illegals" for a reason- they entereed the country without the permission of the government, and should not be residing within its jurisdiction. Also, they should by no means be given proof of legal residency (ie. a driver's license).

[Chancellor]

Quote by: J. Askiloupos Why is this man even being given attention, let alone the mayorship of one of the United States' greatest cities? These people are referred to as "illegals" for a reason- they entereed the country without the permission of the government, and should not be residing within its jurisdiction. Also, they should by no means be given proof of legal residency (ie. a driver's license).

The New York we're referring to is New York State and the individual we're referring to is the state's governor, Eliot Spitzer.

One would expect people to know these things.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: J. Askiloupos Why is this man even being given attention, let alone the mayorship of one of the United States' greatest cities? These people are referred to as "illegals" for a reason- they entereed the country without the permission of the government, and should not be residing within its jurisdiction. Also, they should by no means be given proof of legal residency (ie. a driver's license).

Since residency is not required to obtain a New York driver's license, said license does not create any proof of legal residency whatsoever.

[J. Askiloupos]

My aplogies, gentlemen...

[rmnunez]

they should by no means be given proof of legal residency (ie. a driver's license).

A drivers license is not proof of legal residency for federal purposes (the only ones relevant to undocumenteds).

Since residency is not required to obtain a New York driver's license, said license does not create any proof of legal residency whatsoever.

You must be a resident in New York to obtain a New York drivers license (the regulations were posted here earlier).

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: rmnunez You must be a resident in New York to obtain a New York drivers license (the regulations were posted here earlier).

No, you do not.

Quote by: DMV Website http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/license.htm According to NYS law, a resident of another country can get a NYS driver license.

(emphasis added)

[Chancellor]

Quote by: tivodan1116 No, you do not. (emphasis added)

As long as we're quoting the New York State regulations on drivers' licenses:

"If you become a resident of NYS, you must get a NYS driver license within 30 days and surrender your out-of-state driver license. Normally, you cannot have a NYS driver license and a driver license from another state, but there are exceptions. It is a violation of Federal law to hold more than one commercial driver license (CDL)." (Emphasis mine).

[brien]

This has nothing to do with driving and everything to do about voting. NY State uses driver's licenses in conjunction with the motor / voter law. Got a driver's license, you can probably vote. In the least instance you can register to vote when you apply and get your driver's license.

Now let's ask ourselves what this has to do with voting. Oh my, Spitzer was supported by Clinton in his election and who do you suppose Spitzer supports for President....

Ding ding ding ding ding....that's right Hillary. How can Spitzer, by the stroke of the pen, bring thousand and thousands of new voters in the booth to vote for Hillary? You guessed it; give them driver's licenses.

The next question to ask is why hasn't Hillary been asked her opinion on this matter? What is her view on illegal immigration? Do you think she is going to stab Spitzer in the back when he is trying to bring a whole new voting block to the NY voting booth who will vote for her ? Dream on.

So now you know the rest of the story.....

Here is the explanation of motor / voter law.

Start Your Engines: The Housing Movement and the Motor Voter Law, by Peter Dreier

In June, 1993, President Clinton signed the National Voter Registration Act, legislation that progressive activists had been demanding for almost a decade. Usually called the "motor voter" bill, it requires all states to streamline their voter registration laws to make it easier for citizens to sign up. Specifically, it requires states to give voters the option to register when they apply for or renew their driver's licenses at state DMVs (thus, "motor voter"), to enlist voters at social service and other agencies (where AFDC, food stamps and other benefits are distributed), and to allow voters to register by mail. Finally, the federal law orders states to implement these provisions by January 1, 1995

Notice who was President when it was enacted. Hmmmmm


Here is some information on how the newly licensed will register to vote:

Illegal Immigration - Americans for Legal Immigration PAC Forums-viewtopic-N.Y.: License plan stokes vote worry

No statement shall be made nor any action taken to discourage the applicant from registering to vote." Spitzer aides also said noncitizens can have Social Security numbers and drivers' licenses. Critics say the problem is that the state's only protection from illegal voters is the sworn statement of registrants declaring themselves citizens, which, if false, is perjury and punishable by up to four years in prison and a $5,000 fine. However, local election boards do not check backgrounds unless a specific complaint is made. "No one checks on any of the applicants," Brehm said.

Long Island News, New York and New York City Jobs, Real Estate, Weather, and Sports -- Newsday.com

So once someone has a license to drive, they most likely will not be challenged when they register to vote.


Here is a related story on the voter ID question as taken up by SCOTUS this term.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/26/wa.../26scotus.html

This certainly looks like the back door to an amnesty program.

[rmnunez]

Voting for foreigners, regardless of the lawfulness of their residency, is a deportable offense.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Chancellor As long as we're quoting the New York State regulations on drivers' licenses: "If you become a resident of NYS, you must get a NYS driver license within 30 days and surrender your out-of-state driver license. Normally, you cannot have a NYS driver license and a driver license from another state, but there are exceptions. It is a violation of Federal law to hold more than one commercial driver license (CDL)." (Emphasis mine).

And? That doesn't say that non residents cannot get licenses.

[brien]

Quote by: rmnunez Voting for foreigners, regardless of the lawfulness of their residency, is a deportable offense.

This is certainly true but: NO ONE IS CHECKING after the vote.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: tivodan1116 And? That doesn't say that non residents cannot get licenses.

Nor does it say that just any non-resident can get one.

[rmnunez]

Brien, they should check to verify only properly registered voters were allowed to vote. In fact they do, that Mexican woman with a son born in the US who took sanctuary in Chicago and then got deported was detected because she mistakenly thought she could vote. Undocumenteds do know voting is illegal and that if caught they may be deported. Maybe undocumenteds figure the chances they'll get caught are negligible since nobody is checking.

I don't see any advantage to an undocumented in unlawfully voting, even if nobody ever found out. The undocumented can't go offer evidence he voted unlawfully to support his claim for residence. If he showed he had voted, he'd be deported.

Then there's the mechanics of the whole process. On election day they set up tables for volunteers to check-in voters. Those registered to vote at a specified location are on lists at that place. They bring some form of identification which confirms they are the person on the list. That list is made up of people who've applied for and were verified as eligible to vote. Simply having a drivers license and an address within the district doesn't entitle a person to vote, they must also be a citizen, adult and have registered to vote.

[rmnunez]

Hillary seems ambiguous about this too:

Asked whether she still agrees with New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer’s plan to give driver's licenses to illegal immigrants, Clinton launched into a long, complicated defense of it. But when Chris Dodd attacked the idea a moment later, Clinton quickly said: “I did not say that it should be done.” NBC’s Tim Russert, one of the debate moderators, jumped in and said to her: “You told (a) New Hampshire paper that it made a lot of sense. Do you support his plan?” ”You know, Tim,” Clinton replied, “this is where everybody plays ‘gotcha.’” John Edwards immediately went for the jugular. “Unless I missed something,” he said, “Sen. Clinton said two different things in the course of about two minutes. Barack Obama added: “I was confused [by] Sen. Clinton's answer. I can't tell whether she was for it or against it.” Obama, Edwards attack; Clinton bombs debate - Roger Simon - Politico.com

[brien]

Brien, they should check to verify only properly registered voters were allowed to vote

rm; See my post above that shows the NY official stated "they don't check" the voter credentials. They don't do it. Once they have a license to drive, they can vote virtually free from scrutiny. Here it is below....

No statement shall be made nor any action taken to discourage the applicant from registering to vote." Spitzer aides also said noncitizens can have Social Security numbers and drivers' licenses. Critics say the problem is that the state's only protection from illegal voters is the sworn statement of registrants declaring themselves citizens, which, if false, is perjury and punishable by up to four years in prison and a $5,000 fine. However, local election boards do not check backgrounds unless a specific complaint is made. "No one checks on any of the applicants," Brehm said.

[brien]

Hillary seems ambiguous about this too:

Ambiguous is an understatement. First she says the program "makes a lot of sense"... Then Sen Dodd called her on it, and she denied she said it in the very forum she stated it in a few minutes before. Russert had the temerity to call her on it and it is all over the news today.

She is a fake, a phony,a fraud and a sham of a presidential candidate. This is perhaps the beginning of her unravelling. Hope so

[Osborn F Enready]

Democrats have "traditionally" claimed to be "for the working man", the law abiding spine of our nation.

How can ANY honest democrat, back Spitzers plan? His plan is to give ILLEGAL aliens, drivers licenses, and the most preposterous claim, it is for SECURITY reasons.

Firstly, as brien has noted, it will be used to facillitate massive voter fraud.

Secondly, these illegals will then have all that is necessary to displace all the legal American workers in the "driving" industry, from taxicabs to commercial truckers, waste disposal trucks, union and non-union driving jobs. HOW IS THAT PROTECTING THOSE WORKERS, since illegals traditionally work for much lower wages?

Thirdly, what about the "gun control nuts" who want to take arms away from CITIZENS? This license will be a means for ILLEGAL aliens to purchase firearms in New York, and I can't see that being a "good thing" when we are possibly on the cusp of an illegal uprising.



As usual, Hillary and her cronies are looking just as evil, ignorant and shameless in pandering as her "counterparts" from the other party she so loves to demonize, as long as it brings her more power, and more corruption.


While I am not a Dodd supporter, I applaud Dodd for recognizing the mantra that both parties, republicans and democrats have been chanting for years...... driving is a privlidge, not a right. Illegal aliens have NO reason to expect a privlidge, from a nation whose laws they have broken from the day they entered the border, ILLEGALLY.

What a scham!

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Democrats have "traditionally" claimed to be "for the working man", the law abiding spine of our nation. How can ANY honest democrat, back Spitzers plan? His plan is to give ILLEGAL aliens, drivers licenses, and the most preposterous claim, it is for SECURITY reasons.

Are you saying that illegal immigrants are not workers, or not men? Either is particularly troubling.

Firstly, as brien has noted, it will be used to facillitate massive voter fraud.

There is already a system in place to ensure that people who cannot vote do not.
Otherwise, why do you not also oppose driver's licenses for legal immigrants who are not yet citizens and (in NY at least) convicted felons, neither of whom can vote?

Secondly, these illegals will then have all that is necessary to displace all the legal American workers in the "driving" industry, from taxicabs to commercial truckers, waste disposal trucks, union and non-union driving jobs. HOW IS THAT PROTECTING THOSE WORKERS, since illegals traditionally work for much lower wages?

Ah, once again, people in favor of the free market for everything else are suddenly opposed to a free market in labor.

How about it is protecting those workers, and millions of other workers who don't happen to have cushy jobs, by keeping prices low on goods sold in the United States...

Thirdly, what about the "gun control nuts" who want to take arms away from CITIZENS? This license will be a means for ILLEGAL aliens to purchase firearms in New York, and I can't see that being a "good thing" when we are possibly on the cusp of an illegal uprising.

sigh... do a five-minute google before you say things like this, will you?

ATF form 4473, required for the purchase of a firearm at every licensed firearm dealer, specifically asks several questions which would disqualify illegal immigrants. In particular, questions 3, 9, 10, and 11 are directed in that area. But wait - it gets better. Question 12(d) asks "Are you a fugitive from justice?" Then, as if that weren't enough, question 12(k) comes right out and says it: "Are you an alien illegally in the United States?"

As usual, Hillary and her cronies are looking just as evil, ignorant and shameless in pandering as her "counterparts" from the other party she so loves to demonize, as long as it brings her more power, and more corruption.

Well, I can't disagree with that...

While I am not a Dodd supporter, I applaud Dodd for recognizing the mantra that both parties, republicans and democrats have been chanting for years...... driving is a privlidge, not a right. Illegal aliens have NO reason to expect a privlidge, from a nation whose laws they have broken from the day they entered the border, ILLEGALLY.

As I have shown before, this is circular reasoning - that illegal aliens are bad inherently because of their illegal entry. Nothing could be more malum prohibitum than calling someone a criminal because they violate a 100% arbitrary law that governs the way in which people are allowed to cross an imaginary line.

In order to show that illegal aliens are somehow undesirable and should be removed, it needs to be shown that they are harmful in some other way than merely violating the statute. In other words, statutes are not justification for themselves.
(note: I'm not saying people haven't shown other reasons, etc. That is a topic for another debate.)

[brien]

There is already a system in place to ensure that people who cannot vote do not

This is true, but as I pointed out in two previous posts, the voting official in NY admitted they don't check the status of voters. If they have a valid license, they are permitted to vote.

If there is a challenge, they are requested to sign an affidavit stating they are legal residents of NY. Then no one checks, according to the official I cited in those previous posts. This is an open door for potential voter fraud on a very large scale.

Spitzer also advocates issuing illegals Social Security numbers as well. This is nothing more than his and Hillary's plan to an open a back door for amnesty. Since they couldn't get it done in Congress, Spitzer and Clinton advocate getting it done on a state by state basis. What other conclusion can one draw?

ATF form 4473, required for the purchase of a firearm at every licensed firearm dealer, specifically asks several questions which would disqualify illegal immigrants.

However, once Spitzer and Clinton open the door for illegals to gain Social Security identification, it would be likely they would qualify the same as citizens to own firearms.