Breaking Point in Immigration Debate

[butterbut]

Breaking Point in Immigration Debate - The Lede - Breaking News - New York Times Blog

With a nationwide farmworker shortage threatening to leave unharvested fruits and vegetables rotting in fields, the Bush administration has begun quietly rewriting federal regulations to eliminate barriers that restrict how foreign laborers can legally be brought into the country.

Of course the economy is going to be hurt when you take a way a source of cheap labor. Its not going to kill us.

What will kill us is illegal immigrants running wild through the country. They don't pay taxes, can't speak English, increase gang violence, and traffic drugs. They need a giant wall on the border, I don't care how much it costs. Imagine America without drugs. Our poor neigborhoods wouldn't be as poor in more becuase kids would stay in school. Instead, the drugs and gang violence that comes across the border is making our neighborhoods worse. Nobody knows how many Islamic terrorists are in the Hordes of illegals either. This is bullcrap. I blame the entire situation on Bush.

[Rave7pt0]

That's the great thing about the internet: people can spew unfounded nonsense, all the while insulated from knowledge of their own profound ignorance.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Rave7pt0 That's the great thing about the internet: people can spew unfounded nonsense, all the while insulated from knowledge of their own profound ignorance.

If your post is in reference to post #1, then you've proved your own point.

Why don't you tell us exactly which part of post #1 is in error?

[butterbut]

Quote by: Rave7pt0 That's the great thing about the internet: people can spew unfounded nonsense, all the while insulated from knowledge of their own profound ignorance.

Do you have a point?

[Matt W]

Op-ed piece, not news....moved.

[Suburbanite]

legalize mexicans

[Mia]

Mexicans need to work for change in their own country. I'm for the wall.

[RVonse]

Illegal immigration can only go on because our federal government wants it to continue. But it is for good reason. Americans just seem to have too much trouble handling the truth.

The real issue behind everything is social security for the baby boomers. Its a huge political nightmare. Our politicians can not just ask for more taxes or take benefits away (which would be my personal preference). So instead they are flooding our country with younger Mexican workers who will keep social security solvent.

Take away the social security problem and the immigration issue would also go away real fast.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Zeebadee If your post is in reference to post #1, then you've proved your own point. Why don't you tell us exactly which part of post #1 is in error?

Ooh ooh! I can help!

Quote by: butterbut What will kill us is illegal immigrants running wild through the country.

Unfounded statement. Prove illegal immigrants will kill me, either figuratively or literally.

They don't pay taxes,

Would not the solution, and indeed a way to "kill two birds with one stone", be to legitimize the situation and allow a free flow of labor, all of which could be taxed? Better tracking of immigrants, inexpensive labor doing jobs Americans have distaste for, and more tax revenue to boot.

can't speak English,

Neither did my ancestors. Neither, I bet, did yours (unless you are 100% descended from the British Isles, in which case I take it back).
Nevertheless, you fail to show that this causes any problems for you.

increase gang violence, and traffic drugs.

Prove that illegal immigrants commit violent crime and drug crime at a greater rate than similarly-situated persons here legally.

They need a giant wall on the border, I don't care how much it costs.

The only thing more naive than thinking we can afford to build a giant wall on the border is thinking that said wall will stop illegal immigration. Humorous if it wasn't so sad.

Imagine America without drugs.

How about imagining any kind of proof for your practically insane supposition that illegal immigrants are responsible for the entire illicit drug trade?

Our poor neigborhoods wouldn't be as poor in more becuase kids would stay in school.

The "War on Drugs" causes the majority of societal problems, like poverty and violence, associated with illicit drugs, not the drugs themselves and CERTAINLY not illegal immigrants by any stretch of the imagination.

Instead, the drugs and gang violence that comes across the border is making our neighborhoods worse.

Prove any of this is true.

Nobody knows how many Islamic terrorists are in the Hordes of illegals either.

Considering how well Islamic terrorists are funded thanks to our energy policy and our "War on Drugs", I'm thinking they don't need to sneak across swimming a river.

But I could be wrong, so why don't you show me one terrorist in the history of our country who entered the nation illegally. I'll even spot you the Canadian border in addition to the Mexican one. Good luck.

This is bullcrap. I blame the entire situation on Bush.

Finally, something I can't argue with.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Ooh ooh! I can help! Unfounded statement. Prove illegal immigrants will kill me, either figuratively or literally. Would not the solution, and indeed a way to "kill two birds with one stone", be to legitimize the situation and allow a free flow of labor, all of which could be taxed? Better tracking of immigrants, inexpensive labor doing jobs Americans have distaste for, and more tax revenue to boot. Neither did my ancestors. Neither, I bet, did yours (unless you are 100% descended from the British Isles, in which case I take it back). Nevertheless, you fail to show that this causes any problems for you. Prove that illegal immigrants commit violent crime and drug crime at a greater rate than similarly-situated persons here legally. The only thing more naive than thinking we can afford to build a giant wall on the border is thinking that said wall will stop illegal immigration. Humorous if it wasn't so sad. How about imagining any kind of proof for your practically insane supposition that illegal immigrants are responsible for the entire illicit drug trade? The "War on Drugs" causes the majority of societal problems, like poverty and violence, associated with illicit drugs, not the drugs themselves and CERTAINLY not illegal immigrants by any stretch of the imagination. Prove any of this is true. Considering how well Islamic terrorists are funded thanks to our energy policy and our "War on Drugs", I'm thinking they don't need to sneak across swimming a river. But I could be wrong, so why don't you show me one terrorist in the history of our country who entered the nation illegally. I'll even spot you the Canadian border in addition to the Mexican one. Good luck. Finally, something I can't argue with.

Everything you've said has been debunked time after time in the immigration threads so I'm not going to waste a lot of time repeating all those posts.

In any case, illegal immigration is going to continue because it's profitable for the corporate interests that run this country.


But I will answer one of your points, because I don't remember seeing it previously:

"Three brothers held in connection with an alleged terror plot at Fort Dix, N.J., may have been smuggled across the southern U.S. border, according to broadcast reports.

Dritan "Anthony" or "Tony" Duka, 28; Shain Duka, 26; and Eljvir "Elvis" Duka, 23, were in the United States illegally.
According to Fox News, "Because the three men entered the United States without inspection, there is no legal record of their entry. A federal law enforcement source said the three entered the United States near Brownsville, Texas, in 1984. They would have been children at the time, ranging in ages from 1 to 6. The source said there is no record of them entering though a regular border crossing, so they are investigating whether they were smuggled into the country."
WorldNetDaily: Fort Dix 'terrorists' smuggled into U.S.?

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Zeebadee Everything you've said has been debunked time after time in the immigration threads so I'm not going to waste a lot of time repeating all those posts.

No, it hasn't.

In any case, illegal immigration is going to continue because it's profitable for the corporate interests that run this country.

I haven't seen any good reason why it shouldn't continue.

But I will answer one of your points, because I don't remember seeing it previously: "Three brothers held in connection with an alleged terror plot at Fort Dix, N.J., may have been smuggled across the southern U.S. border, according to broadcast reports. Dritan "Anthony" or "Tony" Duka, 28; Shain Duka, 26; and Eljvir "Elvis" Duka, 23, were in the United States illegally. According to Fox News, "Because the three men entered the United States without inspection, there is no legal record of their entry. A federal law enforcement source said the three entered the United States near Brownsville, Texas, in 1984. They would have been children at the time, ranging in ages from 1 to 6. The source said there is no record of them entering though a regular border crossing, so they are investigating whether they were smuggled into the country." WorldNetDaily: Fort Dix 'terrorists' smuggled into U.S.?

It would be laughable if you didn't believe it.

The "story" from "news" source WND contradicts the Washington Post story on the same topic, in which a US official says they entered legally but stayed illegally. All of the stories confirm they were ages 1-6 when they entered the United States, so how that counts as "terrorists" entering is beyond me, unless you think "terrorism" is genetic.:rolleyes:

Even this story from Faux News says that it is only an investigation whether they entered illegally or not.

[rmnunez]

Lots of commentary here about president Fox's book tour in the US and his apperances on TV, he called O'Reilly a xenophobe. I didn't know Fox's grandad came from Cincinnati and that he migrated with his family to Mexico.
Estimating the cost of deporting them all:

Senator Susan M. Collins, Republican of Maine, asked for an estimate of what it would cost to try and locate, detain and deport all of the 12 million people estimated to be in the US illegally. Julie L. Myers, chief of Immigrations and Customs Enforcement, estimated it would cost at least $94 billion. The amount was calculated by multiplying the estimated 12 million people by the average cost of detaining people for a day: $97. That was multiplied by the average length of detention: 32 days. ICE officials also considered transportation costs, which average $1,000 per person. Estimate for Deporting Illegal Immigrants: Billion - The Lede - Breaking News - New York Times Blog

[Dieval]

Quote by: Mia Mexicans need to work for change in their own country. I'm for the wall.

Agreed. But to expand on that point, not just Mexicans, but ALL illegals from other countries.

[rmnunez]

People who think improving things in Mexico is the answer should explain why immigration is accelerating apace with the US average wage and despite unprecedented Mexican social spending since 2000.

I understand the theory, but it isn't borne out by the facts. If Mexicans left because they have no jobs, get no help, have inadequate housing, no schools, health-care, lousy roads, transportation and communications, then how come when the government (since Fox) has been shovelling billions (of dollars) in providing the amenities -immigration still accelerated?

Corruption is a crutch, everyone says this drains any Mexican governmental efforts, I'm sure it does, but the number of new hospitals, miles of highway, massive hydroelectric projects, rural electrification, schools and academic institutions that have been opened since 2000 would have a different effect.

Forget about how much didn't get properly spent, just consider the fraction that did. Since this represented more social spending than ever before, how come we didn't see any deceleration in migratory flows from Mexico?

[Osborn F Enready]

You tell us Nunez, after all, you live there, and are part of the system of government.

My nation has a right to bar illegal entry as a sovereign nation.

[rmnunez]

All governments have a right to bar illegal entry and all do, in fact they can bar any foreign entry, make it all illegal (as some have). This is not in doubt, what is not as certain is that the US should bar immigration of "undocumented workers".

Unquestionably the US has the right to, and lets figure they have the capacity to do so, but the US can't do without 12 million low paid stoop laborers.

You don't have the manpower to cover the slots, you can't pay them enough without seriously screwing the whole economy and it would cost a fortune to both effectively seal the border and get rid of all the unlawfully there.

Worse, you'd make an adversary of a docile neighbor which has contributed substantially to every achievement you can claim as a nation.

[Osborn F Enready]

Nunez said: All governments have a right to bar illegal entry and all do, in fact they can bar any foreign entry, make it all illegal (as some have). This is not in doubt,

Obviously you haven't debated Gramps or some of the other "no borders" utopian club.

Nunez said: what is not as certain is that the US should bar immigration of "undocumented workers".

Its clear to those left with no job, due to the effects of illegal immigrants and job offshoring.

Nunez said: Unquestionably the US has the right to, and lets figure they have the capacity to do so, but the US can't do without 12 million low paid stoop laborers.

Why not?

Grass going to get too long?
Housework will pile up on the lazy spoiled rich bungholes who are busy selling out their nation?
Houses won't be built because of a shortage of carpenters?

No.

The U.S. can easily do without the problem.

Nunez said: You don't have the manpower to cover the slots, you can't pay them enough without seriously screwing the whole economy and it would cost a fortune to both effectively seal the border and get rid of all the unlawfully there.

That is the price paid for allowing ourselves to break the law instead of actually doing something on our own.

Nunez said: Worse, you'd make an adversary of a docile neighbor which has contributed substantially to every achievement you can claim as a nation.

We don't need their support, if it revolves around robbing the U.S. social safety net(which isn't constitutional to begin with) of its RIGHTFUL beneficiearies, who have LEGALLY paid into it.

If the illegal immigrants are so "brave and brazen", they should be facing you and the people you protect down, to impeach you all, for not providing the leadership they elected you to put forth.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez People who think improving things in Mexico is the answer should explain why immigration is accelerating apace with the US average wage and despite unprecedented Mexican social spending since 2000. I understand the theory, but it isn't borne out by the facts. If Mexicans left because they have no jobs, get no help, have inadequate housing, no schools, health-care, lousy roads, transportation and communications, then how come when the government (since Fox) has been shovelling billions (of dollars) in providing the amenities -immigration still accelerated?

Simple. Because such government social spending has to be paid for somehow. Those staying to work in mexico would have to pay, through taxes or some other form of funding, for those things that they get for free in the U.S.

[notworthabean]

To answer those who point to the high cost of deporting illegals: rather then doing that just deny them jobs. heres a few ideas I came up with on stopping Illegal immigration if the USA is serious about it

1) Establish a system of temporary workers who can come in to do the farm work. Migratory mexicans have been doing this in califronia for a hundred years, no reason to stop them now, they come in on temp visas, leave on temp visas.

2) Establish a national "worker" database. It has yoru name, picture S.S. etc. If your on a temp worker visa you get added for a set period of time at the border and taken off after your term expires. A series of high profile busts on businesses using Illeagals will send many now jobless foreign runnign home.

3) Strict border patrols-build fences where apporaite, allow the Border guard to do what they want to do to track Illegals, hire more of them. And if you REALLY want to stop it, summarily execute people caught crossing Illegally.That'll stop em in their tracks (but it would piss of mexico..)

4) automatically deport people who are caught commiting crimes while here illegally Take finger prints and picture before hand and keep a databbse. those caught in the USA again doing crimes will get life in prison with no possibility of parole. Perhaps in speical federal prisons for non-citizens who are here without permisison of the government. Jails without TVs, visits by family (unless given by the warden) and with 1 hour of break time a day.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Obviously you haven't debated Gramps or some of the other "no borders" utopian club.

I don't consider myself "Utopian," just opposed to systematic, idiotic tyranny.

Grandpa h.