Elections and Voting: A Baha'i View

[RonPrice]

The personalised power that is characteristic of patriarchy and of the election process in the west--and the east---is negated in the Bahá'í Faith as all power and authority rests with elected institutions rather than individuals. The Bahá'í method of elections to these institutions avoids the highly competitive electioneering of most modern political systems. The procedures of these institutions involve deliberation with the whole community and consultative decision-making. The whole ethos of this administrative machinery is radically different from much of modern administration.

Shoghi Effendi sums up this difference in his words of caution to those elected to Bahá'í administrative office: "Let us also bear in mind that the keynote of the Cause of God is not dictatorial authority but humble fellowship, not arbitrary power, but the spirit of frank and loving consultation."(12) Although there are institutions such as the Continental Boards of Counsellors and the Auxiliary Board where the appointment is individual, these institutions do not have any power or authority but rather their roles are to advise and encourage.
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Beware, beware lest the foul odour of the parties and peoples of foreign lands in the West, and their pernicious methods, such as intrigues, party politics and propaganda — practices which are abhorrent even in name — should ever reach the Bahá'í community, exert any influence whatsoever upon the friends, and thus bring all spirituality to naught. The friends should, through their devotion, love, loyalty and altruism, abolish these evil practices, not imitate them. It is only after the friends completely ignore and sanctify themselves from these evils, that the spirit of God can penetrate and operate in the body of humanity, and in the Bahá'í community. ---In a letter written by Shoghi Effendi, 30 January 1923 to the Central Spiritual Assembly of Iran ö translated from the Persian...posted by Ron Price, Tasmania, Australia:)

[melpomene]

Are you spiritually and emotionally preparing yourself for the imminent Australian Federal election?

[Technosoul]

The Persian people have some great poets and witers when it comes to reomancing God or their women.

However the hypocracy of rightiousness as a mandate for community rulership is not, nor would it ever be (we hope) adopted in America nor any place where freedom and independance rings true.

However we love reading those inspiriational witings of the Persians, both those of historical vintage and the newer expressions.

But millions of people in Iran would prefer democarcy but they fear speaking out because of the punishments that would be laid upon them.

[RonPrice]

Baha'is do not identify themselves with any party. They keep aloof from party politics; they vote on the merits of individuals and each Baha'i is free to vote for the person of their choice.
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I thought I might add the following note about the Baha'i Faith just to set it in some context. This is from: LEO TOLSTOY...at the turn of the 20th century....
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Translated from a letter to Mme. Isabel Grinevskaya, Oct. 22, 1903
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I am very glad that Mr. V. V. Stassov has told you of the good impression which your book has made on me, and I thank you for sending it.

I have known about the Bábís(precursors of the Baha'is) for a long time, and have always been interested in their teachings. It seems to me that these teachings, as well as all the rationalistic social religious teachings that have arisen lately out of the original teachings of Brahmanism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam distorted by the priests, have a great future for this very reason that these teachings, discarding all these distorting incrustations that cause division, aspire to unite into one common religion of all mankind.

Therefore, the teachings of the Bábís, inasmuch as they have rejected the old Muhammadan superstitions and have not established new superstitions which would divide them from other new superstitions...........and inasmuch as they keep to the principal fundamental ideas of brotherhood, equality and love, have a great future before them.----Appreciations of the Baha'i Faith, p. 34)
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[donfie]

Forgive me naïveté, but isn't the only truly free and "democratic" system a system where all decisions are put to the people.

In the modern system you are essentially electing a temporary dictator. The nature of that term of "rule" is dependant on the individual characteristics of those that rule.

You are voting for the person you "hope" will do the right thing during their term in office but, if they don't or they go so far as to completely change what they said they were going to do (which was the reason you voted for them in the first place) you have no mechanism to remove them until their dictatorial term is over.

In this modern age, isn't it possible that people could give their "vote" on each issue with the "government" simply there to make the proposals, organise the vote, and then implement the results.

But millions of people in Iran would prefer democarcy but they fear speaking out because of the punishments that would be laid upon them.

I don't often say this but, what a load of cobblers. Iran IS a democracy!

Read this:

Elections in Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This highlights the fundamental problem with the US in world opinion. They say they want "democracy" for all countries but what they actually mean is they want countries to have leaders they approve of. This is one of the major hypocracies of the US and many of it's citizens (which clearly includes yourself).

American foreign policy is absolutely un-democratic. Telling people you can vote then telling them they have chosen incorrectly and that you want it changed is not, in any shape or form, democratic. Quite the opposite.

And people like yourself who blindly view everyone outside of America who doesn't follow your specifc (and not perfect) ways as unhappy, repressed or ignorant highlights your arrogance and your own ignorance.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: RonPrice Baha'is do not identify themselves with any party. They keep aloof from party politics; they vote on the merits of individuals and each Baha'i is free to vote for the person of their choice. _____________ I thought I might add the following note about the Baha'i Faith just to set it in some context. This is from: LEO TOLSTOY...at the turn of the 20th century.... ________________ Translated from a letter to Mme. Isabel Grinevskaya, Oct. 22, 1903 _____________ I am very glad that Mr. V. V. Stassov has told you of the good impression which your book has made on me, and I thank you for sending it. I have known about the Bábís(precursors of the Baha'is) for a long time, and have always been interested in their teachings. It seems to me that these teachings, as well as all the rationalistic social religious teachings that have arisen lately out of the original teachings of Brahmanism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam distorted by the priests, have a great future for this very reason that these teachings, discarding all these distorting incrustations that cause division, aspire to unite into one common religion of all mankind. Therefore, the teachings of the Bábís, inasmuch as they have rejected the old Muhammadan superstitions and have not established new superstitions which would divide them from other new superstitions...........and inasmuch as they keep to the principal fundamental ideas of brotherhood, equality and love, have a great future before them.----Appreciations of the Baha'i Faith, p. 34) _____________

Any religion that believes that other religions are distortions of the truth are not uniting anyone together into one faith.

[RonPrice]

I was quoting Leo Tolstoi to give readers here the opinions of one of the great modern writers regarding the Baha'i Faith. Of course, Tolstoi is long gone now and many would not even consider himmodern, but there are many who hold the Baha'i Faith in high regard. Let me add a note or two on the Baha'i view of other religions; I have moved here in this thread a long way from politics where this thread started, but it seems these threads are quite sinuous and cover much ground as dialogue continues its meandering course:
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Each of the world's major religions contain prophecies foretelling the coming of a Promised One. Each of the great world religions' Founders either promised to send another like himself, personally return himself, or in some instances... promised to do both.

For example, Christians await the return of Christ and the coming of "another comforter." The Jewish scriptures foretell the coming of "another Prophet" like Moses and Elijah's return from heaven. Many Moslems await the appearance of Mahdi and Meseeh. Krishna promised to personally return from age to age. Buddha said that he was not the first Buddha ever to appear and that another "supremely enlightened" Buddha was still yet to come. Zoroastrian prophecies foretell the coming of a "World-renovator." Native American prophecies foretell the coming of a bearded white man from the east who will bring teachings which will restore the "hoop of unity."

Each religion, in its own way, has foretold the coming of a great 'religion restoring', 'world uniting', 'peace bringing' Messiah. For centuries, people from all over the world have been hoping and praying that they will be the generation which will witness the appearance of their Promised One. Not many have considered the possibility that these prophecies from the various religions might actually all be foretelling the exact same event.

Members of the Baha'i Faith believe that in the middle of the last century these prophecies actually were fulfilled and that the Promised One truly did appear. Baha'u'llah, the Prophet-founder of the Baha'i Faith, claims to be the Promised One whose coming was explicitly foretold, not only in the Old and the New Testaments... but also in the prophecies of the Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic, Zoroastrian, and other religions.
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That's all for now!-Ron Price, George Town, Tasmania, Australia

[donfie]

Any religion that believes that other religions are distortions of the truth are not uniting anyone together into one faith.

That's an oxymoron and just as ill-thought out as your Iran comment.

If the aim is to form everyone into one group of anything then the assertion that being a member of other groups is fine and dandy is self-defeating.

All religions say that theirs is the only way whether the God or Gods in question are considered the same or not. There are no religions, nor could there be by definition that say, "To be a member of this religion you should believe what you want, call yourself what you like and worship how and who you like."

[donfie]

It may also interest you to know that Islam does not view Christianity or Judaism as distortions of the truth. They are considered as the early carnations of Islam.

It states in the Quran that a Muslim man may marry a Christian or Jewish woman without need for her to convert to Islam or stop her Christian or Jewish practices.

I'll wager that surprises a lot of Muslims too.

[RonPrice]

Quote by: donfie That's an oxymoron and just as ill-thought out as your Iran comment. If the aim is to form everyone into one group of anything then the assertion that being a member of other groups is fine and dandy is self-defeating. All religions say that theirs is the only way whether the God or Gods in question are considered the same or not. There are no religions, nor could there be by definition that say, "To be a member of this religion you should believe what you want, call yourself what you like and worship how and who you like."

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I agree with you here. "There are no religions, nor could there be by definition that say, "To be a member of this religion you should believe what you want, call yourself what you like and worship how and who you like." This is a posiiton of extreme liberalism and no group could form under these circumstances..Ron
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the Baha'is do not "aim is to form everyone into one group." Such a goal
in the next several centuries, if not millennia would be, as you say,self-defeating.-Ron

[RonPrice]

Quote by: Technosoul Any religion that believes that other religions are distortions of the truth are not uniting anyone together into one faith.

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Tolstoi and millions of others would argue that many of the interpretations of the Bible in our modern world are, just that: extreme distortions of the truth. You are absolutely correct, in the short term, people believing in these distortions will not be united in any "new truth." Amen. As the Jews did not recognize Christ and the Christians did not recognize Muhammad; Muslims do not recognize Baha'u'llah.-Ron
P.S, Unity will be slow in coming....Amen again.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: RonPrice ____________________ Tolstoi and millions of others would argue that many of the interpretations of the Bible in our modern world are, just that: extreme distortions of the truth. You are absolutely correct, in the short term, people believing in these distortions will not be united in any "new truth." Amen. As the Jews did not recognize Christ and the Christians did not recognize Muhammad; Muslims do not recognize Baha'u'llah.-Ron P.S, Unity will be slow in coming....Amen again.

It is difficult to be a prophet in your own country, difficult to be a prophet (holy man) while you are still alive. And nearly impossible to be a prophet or holy man in your own house with your wife and kids.

In western politics, and concerning the elections of our governmental leaders, here in Ameirca, our holy book is the Consitution of the United States, and the Bill of Rights. Which is both inspired, inspirational, as well as containing rules of logic and common sense. The scribes and temple leaders of our this "chruch" are our leaders in Washington DC, in the White House, the Senate, Congress. Our kings and queens sit on the Supreme Court. Our unity is glued together by our many states.
Our standards of morality is composed of family values, equality, the concepts of hard work and the free market place. The rights to life, liberty, individual freedom, and independance. Our wish, but not a mission of enforced dominance, is that all nations would unite under these same concepts.

No other prophet, no other religion (way of life), no other historical document, will replace this from the outside, for we will lay down our life to defend it, yet, the only danger is if we screw things up our selves, from within, as did the many other oganizations that attempted such a profound misson, for we are so established not for the sake of peace in and unity, for for the right to debate and to disagree with one another in seperation of each other, for only under that climate can unity by free will amass. Amen and amen again.

Can I get a witness?

[RonPrice]

You said it well, Technosoul, and--as you say--the greatest enemies are often those within. The Baha'is have a similar philosophy regarding enemies; even love of the enemy has its limitations--depending, of course, on who the enemy is.
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U.S. Baha'i News,a Baha'i newsletter in the U.S.A., had an article about a year ago now, on the spirit and practice of Baha'i elections. This artilce is related to the theme of this thread which I started some time ago. The article quoted the testimony of a person from the former Soviet Union who had recently become a member of the American Baha'i community. A portion of that article is below:

"If I weren't glad before to be a Baha'i, I was especially glad after participating for the first time in the Faith's electoral process; it was one of the highlights of my life," says Irma Simuni of Wilmette, Ill. Simuni, who grew up in the Soviet Union, became a Baha'i in May, and in October, at one of 161 local conventions held throughout the United States, voted to elect a local delegate to the Faith's annual national convention held each April. Baha'is worldwide also participated in local conventions. In April, the delegates, including 171 from the United States, will elect nine Baha'is to serve on the National Spiritual Assembly in their respective countries. To date, there are 182 National Spiritual Assemblies worldwide. Every five years, members of these assemblies elect nine Baha'is to serve on the Universal House of Justice , the administrative body of the worldwide Baha'i community.

During this mid-term election season, it is nice to be reminded that are alternative ways of going about the choice of leadership of one's community that are free from the partisanship and prejudices that frustrate the energies of positive change that exist in our great country. It is a blessing to know that my vote in a Baha'i election represents the fruit of my own conscience, free from manipulation by vested interests with narrow agendas. It's an experience of spiritual democracy in action.-Posted by Ron Price with thanks to the U.S. Baha'i News, November 2nd, 2006.:)

[Technosoul]

Quote by: RonPrice You said it well, Technosoul, and--as you say--the greatest enemies are often those within. The Baha'is have a similar philosophy regarding enemies; even love of the enemy has its limitations--depending, of course, on who the enemy is. ________________ U.S. Baha'i News,a Baha'i newsletter in the U.S.A., had an article about a year ago now, on the spirit and practice of Baha'i elections. This artilce is related to the theme of this thread which I started some time ago. The article quoted the testimony of a person from the former Soviet Union who had recently become a member of the American Baha'i community. A portion of that article is below: "If I weren't glad before to be a Baha'i, I was especially glad after participating for the first time in the Faith's electoral process; it was one of the highlights of my life," says Irma Simuni of Wilmette, Ill. Simuni, who grew up in the Soviet Union, became a Baha'i in May, and in October, at one of 161 local conventions held throughout the United States, voted to elect a local delegate to the Faith's annual national convention held each April. Baha'is worldwide also participated in local conventions. In April, the delegates, including 171 from the United States, will elect nine Baha'is to serve on the National Spiritual Assembly in their respective countries. To date, there are 182 National Spiritual Assemblies worldwide. Every five years, members of these assemblies elect nine Baha'is to serve on the Universal House of Justice , the administrative body of the worldwide Baha'i community. During this mid-term election season, it is nice to be reminded that are alternative ways of going about the choice of leadership of one's community that are free from the partisanship and prejudices that frustrate the energies of positive change that exist in our great country. It is a blessing to know that my vote in a Baha'i election represents the fruit of my own conscience, free from manipulation by vested interests with narrow agendas. It's an experience of spiritual democracy in action.-Posted by Ron Price with thanks to the U.S. Baha'i News, November 2nd, 2006.:)

It is true that partisanship and prejudices have hampered unity during our elections. In your set up within the Baha'i faith the elections are not about picking different ideas held by different canidates, because all the voters agree with the Baha'i concepts and so it is more a matter of just apponting the people you feel have the best managing skills.

We could have done that here, everyone could have all agreed to agree only with the " Bush-a'i " ideas, then in unity under his philosophy and religious opinons we could have united to vote for Congressmen who likewise share the collective idealisms.

The Democrats and also Ron Paul would not be appointed by the voting processes because that would consitutute the taboo's of partisanship and also because it would be wrong for the Democrats to discriminate aganest the peaceful unity of Republicans who have united us under Bush a'i and his insprirational platform.

And then we would stand united under one Bush-a'i God and one dogma.

Would that be a good idea for us to do?

Then people would only say Amen to whatever Busha'i revealed to us as the will of the Most High.

[RonPrice]

Partisan politics is about: (a) individuals realizing their ambitions and their lust for power corrupts political morals; (b) individuals constantly praising themselves and wooing the favour of the voters; (c) disparagement and defamation of the opposition goes hand-in-hand with this and, in the long run, encourages demogagic practices as Aristotle pointed out 2300 years ago(See his Politics, Book II, IX, pp.27-8); (d) instead of the lesiure needed to reflect there is a constant fluster and hectic activity to handle the press and media and present a good front---and I could go on and on. The democratic process we now have needs radical change and it will come out of necessity--always the mother of invention.-Ron:)

[Technosoul]

Quote by: RonPrice Partisan politics is about: (a) individuals realizing their ambitions and their lust for power corrupts political morals; (b) individuals constantly praising themselves and wooing the favour of the voters; (c) disparagement and defamation of the opposition goes hand-in-hand with this and, in the long run, encourages demogagic practices as Aristotle pointed out 2300 years ago(See his Politics, Book II, IX, pp.27-8); (d) instead of the lesiure needed to reflect there is a constant fluster and hectic activity to handle the press and media and present a good front---and I could go on and on. The democratic process we now have needs radical change and it will come out of necessity--always the mother of invention.-Ron:)

Ambition can be both good or bad depending on the goals one has, it is simply another way of saying someone has a dream to follow, and is self motivated. One cannot eleminate the power, someone must have it if governments and civilization is to continue to exsist. Such power is bad only when missused and abused. Elections can afford people a chance to put the right people into those positions, along with the processes of recalls or impeachments, if the people so elect to do so.

You can hardly expect a lazy bum with no ambition or someone who just wants to hide out in a cave to meditate in peace to run for some high ranking political office, can we? I doubt if they even have the ambition to go to the voting booths.

And so the real agenda on your part is to find those people who have the lesiure to reflect inwardly about the idealisms that really matter, the ones who care and are concerned about the furture well being of our planet, and reason with them, and create a gathering, and get out the vote by having those people vote for the best possible canidates on the ticket. Inventing a new America takes more then just the necessity to do so, it takes the ambition and the motivation to do so. And the will of the people, God willing.

[RonPrice]

If the process of electing a president requires of those running a bank account of millions of dollars one wonders if this is indeed the best system. "Vote for me because I'm a good guy," is not exactly a sound method of endorsement. How anybody can conceive that the present system and all its song and dance is not in need of drastic improvement beats me. And to twitter away that it's the best on the planet will not do--it may have been okay for the last two centuries or more but I can't imagine it being the form we take into, say, the 23rd or 24th centuries.

The Bahá'í approach to government or collective action is a vast subject that cannot be adequately dealt with in a short space. I will confinemy remarks to a few highlights, which might be of special interest in the context of the general discussion here at Volconvo. There are at least three dimensions to the Bahá'í plan for the establishment of a permanent world peace based on justice, or in Bahá'í terminology, "The Most Great Peace." The first dimension is the adoption of the highest ethical standards by every man, woman, and child on the planet. It is irrational to suppose that a just society can be achieved unless the people of that society are themselves just individuals.

A second dimension to the Bahá'í plan are broad policies to ensure that every person in the world has equal opportunity and encouragement to develop fully his or her physical, mental, and spiritual potential. One important aspect of this issue is the abolition of extremes of wealth and poverty within nations and between nations. Another is the elimination of racist and other prejudices that crush the human spirit.

A third dimension of the plan is a new system of government based on spiritual values and a world perspective. It must be clear by now to every thinking person that the present political system corrupts even the noblest of people and is not capable of dealing with the major issues that face humanity today. The most important characteristic of the present political scene is its division into some 170 sovereign states, the so-called Westphalian system. Many of these states have authoritarian governments that exploit and oppress rather than serve their peoples. Even more appalling is the fact that the system is so out of step with the needs of the time that it risks the destruction of most, if not all, of mankind for causes, which, by comparison and in the perspective of history, can only be called frivolous. Establishment of a permanent peace based on justice is, in the Bahá' í view, only possible if we move to an entirely new system of government.

The Bahá'í Community has already established a new system of government to direct its own affairs. This system, known as the Bahá'í Administrative Order, is offered to mankind as an alternative model to conventional methods. Ultimately, it is envisaged that this model will evolve into a full-fledged system featuring a world legislature, a world executive backed by a world police force, and a world judiciary, with subsidiary branches at national and local levels in every part of the world. Meanwhile, Bahá'ís are acquiring, within their own communities, experience on how to work their radically different system of managing the collective affairs of society. There are three key elements in the Bahá'í approach to government: a world structure; an electoral system, which puts emphasis on spiritual and collective qualities rather than on individual self-interest; and full, objective consultation as the basis for decision making. That's enough for now.-Ron Price, Tasmania:)

[Technosoul]

But the Baha'i Leaders of the Baha'i movement would need lots of cash to donations in order to publish their theory worldwide, in order to train the world's population about the moral standards they concider worthy of mass conformity. Just like a poltical canidate must raise money to present their poltical platform so that people can become aware of it.

Although you personally are not seeking donations for a religious movement it is clear that somewhere down the line people would be expected to donate to the Baha'i group, which is already wealthy due to such donations.

This is in effect a fund rasier posting you presented. And a grab for power away from the other kinds of governmental systems now in power.

Is it not?

[RonPrice]

Let me respond with the following:

Bahá'í elections take place through secret ballot. All mentioning of names, all campaigning, and all nominating is forbidden; electors are to pray and vote their conscience after considering the personal qualities of people they know and the diversity of the body they are electing. Such a system prevents the extensive voter manipulation and elaborate promises that characterize most electoral campaigns in civil society and thus remove from the Bahá'í system a major cause of polarization of the electorate. Those elected, having never issued promises to press for certain changes, are free to look at issues in an unbiased fashion and to brainstorm together freely.[14]
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When an election is called, those eligible to vote have the option of voting by mail or in person (except regional council elections, which are almost always conducted by mail). Tellers count the votes and announce who received the plurality of votes. In the event of a tie, preference is given to members of minority groups.

The Bahá'í scriptures place great emphasis on consensus--not in the Quaker sense of waiting for agreement, but in the sense that consultation should result in unanimity. No record is kept of who voted for what. If unanimity is not possible, however, a majority vote can settle an issue. Those holding a minority position are urged to trust in and support the decision, because the only way to determine whether a decision was right is to implement it. If a decision is not supported, there may be no way to determine whether it failed because it was poorly made or because it could not be properly implemented.
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What you say about donations: "Although you personally are not seeking donations for a religious movement it is clear that somewhere down the line people would be expected to donate to the Baha'i group, which is already wealthy due to such donations." Has some truth, the following statement expresses the Baha'i attitude to donations:

...all contributions to the Fund are to be purely and strictly voluntary in character. It should be made clear and evident to every one that any form of compulsion, however slight and indirect, strikes at the very root of the principle underlying the formation of the Fund ever since its inception. While appeals of a general character, carefully worded and moving and dignified in tone are welcome under all circumstances, it should be left entirely to the discretion of every conscientious believer to decide upon the nature, the amount, and purpose of his or her contribution for the propagation of the Cause.
(Shoghi Effendi: Baha'i Administration, p. 101)

[Technosoul]

On donations: All hynotic instructions use the same reasoning which is " Do it because you want too, not because you must". The first auto-suggestiong is to make people feel they are acting out of free will and not because they are being manipulated by the manipulator.

That is a very old "trick" and it works most of the time as a way to gather believers.

The idea that the elections are secret with no record keeping being done would allow for the temptation to 'fix' an election by those who are in charge of "counting the votes" as you would have no way for a 3rd party to conduct a recount if people thought something was a-fowl.

If the ballets are all secret how would they know which one represents the minory in case of a tie?

Who is in charge of "calling for an election"?

I am presenting these more as questions for the moment to allow you the right to further elaborate your concepts ( their concepts for them).