Iraq Inks $100 Million Arms Deal - With China

[Praxius]

Iraq Inks $100 Million Arms Deal - With China | Sweetness & Light

Iraq has ordered $100 million worth of light military equipment from China for its police force, contending that the United States was unable to provide the materiel and is too slow to deliver arms shipments, Iraqi President Jalal Talabani said yesterday.

The China deal, not previously made public, has alarmed military analysts who note that Iraq’s security forces already are unable to account for more than 190,000 weapons supplied by the United States, many of which are believed to be in the hands of Shiite and Sunni militias, insurgents and other forces seeking to destabilize Iraq and target U.S. troops…

The Chinese arms deal sheds light on the larger dispute between the United States and Iraq over rebuilding Iraq’s armed forces and police. Iraqi officials have long complained about the supply of weapons and equipment for their personnel, noting that Iraqi security forces often patrol in pickup trucks without body armor along the same routes as U.S. troops wearing flak jackets and riding in armored vehicles.

“There is general frustration in the Iraqi government at the rate in which Iraqi armed forces are being equipped and armed,” Iraqi Ambassador Samir Sumaidaie told reporters this summer. “This is a collaborative effort between the Iraqi government and the government of the United States, and the process is not moving quickly enough to improve the fighting capacity of Iraqi armed forces. A way must be found to improve this process.”

Talabani yesterday expressed frustration with the delays. “The capacity of the factories here are not enough to provide us quickly with all that we need, even for the army. One of our demands is to accelerate the delivery of the arms to the Iraqi army.” …

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said the United States is “working closely” to help Iraq obtain “appropriate and necessary” military equipment. But U.S. officials concede delivery problems.

“We haven’t converted toaster factories to produce carbines and we’re working hard just to supply our own troops,” said an administration official involved with Iraq policy. “Our factories are working for our own troops. So it’s true we don’t have the ability to provide these rifles and other equipment they’re looking for.”

In 2004 and 2005, the United States bought 185,000 AK-47s from an Eastern European country — after Iraqis rejected U.S.-made M-16 assault rifles — as part of a $2.8 billion program to deliver military equipment to Iraq. But a recent Government Accountability Office report said that 110,000 of them were unaccounted for, with about 30 percent of all arms distributed to Iraqi forces by the United States since 2004 missing.

*Rolls the ball* this will probably be more in the news tomorrow.

Makes sense... they need weapons, they're not getting them, they're buying them from someone else.

Capitalism at its best.

[butterbut]

Good to know ther're doing something on their own.

[Praxius]

Ah poop... missed the title.

[Jack]

Fixed.

[thx1138]

Good to know ther're doing something on their own.

The U.S. just destoryed Iraq and now you expect Iraqi people to fix it and get upset because the U.S. has to do some of the work.

That is like if I go to your house make a mess of it and make you to clean it up and get upset if I have to help you.

What kind of logic is at work here? :eek:

[Praxius]

Fixed.

Thanks a bunch.

[Praxius]

The U.S. just destoryed Iraq and now you expect Iraqi people to fix it and get upset because the U.S. has to do some of the work.

That is like if I go to your house make a mess of it and make you to clean it up and get upset if I have to help you.

What kind of logic is at work here? :eek:

The way I see it, they're upset at the slow response time for getting what they require. It's another blunder on top of others. And I certainly don't give two craps about the offical excuse that they are selling or giving the weapons to the insurgents..... there's no proof that I am aware of on this, or even how much could be proven.

What is proven is they have very little to defend themselves with, they made a deal with you guys to supply them, you gave them crappy M-16's..... probably 2nd hand at that, and they didn't even want them.

The weaponry is 2nd rate and out dated since the 60's, and it's taking forever to get them...... so they goto China for a much better quality assault rifle, and other arms for their police and army...... and your officials are now bitching and complaining that Iraq is doing this, claiming they already lost hundreds of thousands of firearms already..... well who is actually to blame for that? Unknown at this point, but it's irrelevent.

The simple facts are you guys don't want to stay in Iraq forever, right?

You guys keep complaining that they are not taking their share of the responsibilities, yet how can they without proper equipment and your guys in the white house slowing things down on more speculations/acusations?

And you guys expect them to take on the insurgents, whom all have AK's, RPGs, IED's, etc.... when all they got is a pickup truck, some 2nd hand M-16 which probably is prone to jamming now, pants and a t-shirt to protect them from their own modesty.... not so good against bullets though.

There might be insurgents who are inside the police forces smuggling weapons, but if that is the case, then you investigate and snoop them out. Find who they are, who they're sending them to, who's paying for them, and then kill the whole lot of them.... problem solved.

just sitting around and bickering about missing weapons, doesn't solve their problem of not having any..... so off to China they go.

Let's just hope Mattell isn't making them, cuz they'll probably be recalled a few months later on lead paint or magnets that the soldiers might accidentally swallow.

[Chaossaber314]

The weaponry is 2nd rate and out dated since the 60's, and it's taking forever to get them...... so they goto China for a much better quality assault rifle, and other arms for their police and army...... and your officials are now bitching and complaining that Iraq is doing this, claiming they already lost hundreds of thousands of firearms already..... well who is actually to blame for that? Unknown at this point, but it's irrelevent.

No that point is actually pretty relevant though I agree with the rest of your post. You can't really complain that you're not getting enough when you're not taking care of what you already have.

If I total my 86 Lumina, I can't bitch that I don't have a 2001 BMW.

[thx1138]

You can't really complain that you're not getting enough when you're not taking care of what you already have.

If I total my 86 Lumina, I can't bitch that I don't have a 2001 BMW.

Here we go again, the country was run into the ground, "you can't complain that you're not getting enough" the U.S. should be completely rebuilding the country.

This is a crime beyond reason and you say they have no right to complain.

[Praxius]

No that point is actually pretty relevant though I agree with the rest of your post. You can't really complain that you're not getting enough when you're not taking care of what you already have.

If I total my 86 Lumina, I can't bitch that I don't have a 2001 BMW.

It's irrelevent because they have no solid evidence, like always, and they're shooting off acusations. The irrelevency is that they can not prove if it was Iraqi officials who were responsible for the losses, or was it on the US side of things when it came to distribution? Or was it the US's rushing to form the police and army that the internal security of those forces was comprimised early on?

The point is.... there were a load of weapons provided by the US at one point.... they disapeared on shaky grounds.... nobody knows 100% how they disapeared. Did the Iraqi's give them to the insurgents, or did American big wigs do it to prolong the battle?

Too many questions which can not be answered at this time, therefore irrelevent at this point.

What is a fact, is they need weapons to fight insurgents.... you guys want them to take over the security so you can all leave sooner..... they are not getting what they need to do this... so they are buying from someone else.

I just don't see why the US officials would care anyways.... if they're complaining about a big dissapearance of weapons, why would they care if they bought more from someone else? It's not like you're gonna loose more weapons..... at the worst, China will.

Heck, with the complaints about Iran suposivly supplying insurgents across the borders, why don't they just ask them for some weapons?

[Chaossaber314]

It's irrelevent because they have no solid evidence, like always, and they're shooting off acusations. The irrelevency is that they can not prove if it was Iraqi officials who were responsible for the losses, or was it on the US side of things when it came to distribution? Or was it the US's rushing to form the police and army that the internal security of those forces was comprimised early on?

The point is.... there were a load of weapons provided by the US at one point.... they disapeared on shaky grounds.... nobody knows 100% how they disapeared.

Doesn't matter. If you're in charge of something and it disappears, it doesn't matter if it was stolen or misplaced. You are still responsible for it. At least you certainly can't be complaining that you're not getting enough supplies when you can't keep track of what happened to them. It really doesn't matter whether or not the weapons were given over to the insurgency, militias, or simply misplaced in the wrong warehouse somewhere.

What's the point of continually filling someone's jug with water if they are unable or simply refuse to fix the hole?

Here we go again, the country was run into the ground, "you can't complain that you're not getting enough" the U.S. should be completely rebuilding the country.

This is a crime beyond reason and you say they have no right to complain.

Save it for another time. This is not the discussion we're having. I'm discussing the complaints of the Iraqi government regarding their supplies when they can't keep track of supplies that are given to them.

Also, Praxius is complaining about the quality of the weapons that were originally given to them (something I did not see mentioned in this article as rationale). In this manner it's similar to starving and then being given hamburgers, throwing them away and going, "No, I want steak!"

[Praxius]

Doesn't matter. If you're in charge of something and it disappears, it doesn't matter if it was stolen or misplaced. You are still responsible for it. At least you certainly can't be complaining that you're not getting enough supplies when you can't keep track of what happened to them. It really doesn't matter whether or not the weapons were given over to the insurgency, militias, or simply misplaced in the wrong warehouse somewhere.

What's the point of continually filling someone's jug with water if they are unable or simply refuse to fix the hole?

And it shouldn't matter how much they misplace or how many disapear.... it's not like they're asking for their money back, they wish to purchase more..... I don't see what the big deal is.... you'd be getting more money and profits by supplying them more weapons..... but instead, they continue to complain about what happened to the other weapons. Isn't it their country? Wtf does it matter?

Because they could be used by insurgents to kill your own troops?

Funny, wasn't it Iran supplying their weapons?

And if you don't like it.... leave the country... let them get their supplies they need from China and Iran, and let them take care of their own country.

Save it for another time. This is not the discussion we're having. I'm discussing the complaints of the Iraqi government regarding their supplies when they can't keep track of supplies that are given to them.

Them kepping track or you guys keeping track? Somebody screwed up somewhere, and I hardly doubt you guys are completely innocent in the matter.

Also, Praxius is complaining about the quality of the weapons that were originally given to them (something I did not see mentioned in this article as rationale).

It's common knowlege and doesn't require to be in the article. Most american troops are using M4A1 AR's... which are of course a newer version of the 16, much lighter and overall a better firearm.

Even back in the 60's when it came out, the majority of Marines didn't like the M16 due to it being prone for jams, and the lighter round it fired.

M4 Carbine ~ Many Marines commented on desire for the shorter weapon vice the longer M16's. They say that it would have definitely been better in the urban environment because of the confined spaces. Since most of the operators were operating from a vehicle platform, the smaller weapon would have helped tremendously for mounting and dismounting.

There were numerous comments that the M16 is too long and cumbersome in the urban fight. Several Marines even opted to use the AK-47s that had been captured from Iraqi weapons caches. Others were trading the rifle for pistols to go into buildings to allow mobility in confined spaces.

There has been a push to get M-4's to crewmen of the mechanized vehicles, LAR in particular. The distribution needs to include LAR, AAV's, Tanks, Motor Transportation, and any other units that may have a requirement. IWS has fielded some assets to LAR, but not all others. LAR still has mostly M16's. The M-16's are too cumbersome/long for crewmen to employ (get out of the cupola or out of a door/window) in a timely manner while under stress such as when receiving fire.

The M16 in Iraq

On 17 July 2003 the Army released a 15-page report stating that members of the 507th Maintenance Company fought the best they could in Iraq until there was no longer a means to resist. Pfc. Jessica Lynch, 19, a member of the 507th, was rescued 01 April 2003 by US military commandos from an Iraqi hospital. The report states numerous times that M-16 rifles malfunctioned or jammed. Other weapons that malfunctioned were the M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon and the .50 caliber machinegun. However, the team that conducted the report did not find persistent problems with weapons, specifically the M16A2 rifle. "Dusty, desert conditions do require vigilance in weapons maintenance," officials said. "However, it is imperative to remember that at the time of the attack, the 507th had spent more than two days on the move, with little rest and time to conduct vehicle repair and recovery operations," officials said.

And this is coming from your own troops.... and you want to pass these peices of out dated crap to people who have to living and fight in this kind of enviroment for a much longer term then you guys will?

No wonder why they're pissed..... and no wonder why they prefer the AK-47.

In this manner it's similar to starving and then being given hamburgers, throwing them away and going, "No, I want steak!"

Wow, that was educational.

Clearly these rifles are no hamburgers.... and the AK-47's are an older model then the 16's.... but it's a proven design to work.... as it's original design was from Nazi Germany's STG44.

They don't want hamburgers or steaks, they want a dam weapon that will function in their enviroment, and be delivered in a timely fasion.

You Americans seem to be so narrow in your view. You bitch and moan that you needed to invade them, you moaned you needed to take out Saddam and give them democracy, you moaned about how difficult the government is being run, you moaned about insurgency and wonder why they hate you so much, you moan that it's taking too long for them to take control of their country after being desimated by your invasion, and expect them to just clean up the mess you guys started.... with crappy equipment at that. You moan that their army and their police is corrupt and they lost a load of weapons and supplies........

Who's fault is all this? Who didn't plan how to go in, do what you needed to do, and get out? Who is now responsible for getting them back on their feet? Who was responsible for rushing in a make-shift government, and slapping together an army/police force without properly thinking of the situation?

Who else do they all have to look up to in running their country? You give half-assed assistence, you get half-assed results.