Debate on a proposed new "Declaration of Independence"

[Osborn F Enready]

I have used the work of others, and myself, to assemble this Declaration, and would appreciate constructive debate to find any shortcomings it contains before going public and collecting signatures.

Thread guidelines:

-Please read the Declaration before posting.
-Please make all constructive criticism objective and coherant.
-Please avoid derailing this thread, or its intended purpose.
-Please feel free to debate any/all of this Declaration while remaining on point, on topic, and within the guidelines set forth by the OP.(me)

Thank you in advance for both your cooperation, and hopefully your guided input.

Declaration follows in post#2:

[Osborn F Enready]

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal by nature, that they are endowed by nature with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness with sacred respect to these rights.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism or a perverted form of Tyranny, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these United States; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present and past Presidents of the United States, United States Legislative and Judicial branches is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations of our Federal Constitution, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States, and the facillitation of World Government without respect to national, much less, individual soverignty.

To illustrate this, let the following conditions speak for themselves : Officials of the federal government (elected and appointed) have :

-Been unduly influenced by "special interests" and "lobbyists" who buy votes to pass law not in the common good.
-Created laws which deny many citizens their property rights for frivolous and ill-defined reasons.
-Created laws infringing on the rights of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms in direct violation of rights enumerated in the Constitution.
-Created laws to redistribute the wealth of the working citizenry through a heavy, progressive income tax, violating the Constitution.
-Denied the rights of inheritance to citizens of this Republic by imposing heavy inheritance taxes, further redistributing the wealth.
-Undermined our sovereignty by signing treaties allowing arbitration of U.S. citizens' rights by foreign bodies.
-Created "acts" establishing an unconstitutional framework of "Emergency Powers" and "Executive Orders" which are dictatorial in nature.
-Maintained an unwarranted state of emergency since 1933 enabling "Executive Orders", which hang over the head of this people.
-Established a privately owned, central bank that regulates the monetary system of this Republic, in violation of the Constitution.
-Served baseless warrants on, brought siege to, bombed, burned and killed citizens, covering up the same allowing the guilty to go unpunished.
-Weakened the free market through excessive regulation of Agriculture, Manufacturing, Communications and Transportation.
-Dictated to property owners who they can and cannot sell to and excessively taxed capital gains from such sales.
-Created a system of state schools for our children which feeds upon the political interests of those who would deny our liberties.
-Supported the said "state" schools through unconstitutional governmental agencies and reapportioned federal funds.
-Denied our heritage by declaring it unconstitutional to teach the values upon which this Republic rests in our schools.
-Over regulated who employers may hire, how much to pay and the conditions in the work place, further weakening the free market.
-Destroyed the initiative of large portions of the citizenry by maintaining over decades a decadent, fraudulent social welfare system.
-Created laws and agencies to maintain power structures and regulations put in place to implement all of the above and control this people.
-Destroyed the wellspring of tranquillity in our society by legalizing and supporting the wanton imprisoning of those guilty only of freedom of consumption with their own bodies, by their own choice, as is their right as owners of their bodies, and responsible people for their actions.
-Made a mockery of criminal justice by removing context from individual rights, their basis, their founding principles, their intended limits on power of the state and Federal Government.
-Housed foreign national armies and illegal citizens on U.S. soil to unwarranted purposes in growing numbers, thereby creating a Trojan Horse in our land.
-Colluded with mass media, which is owned by the principals of the central bank, to keep these truths away from the American citizenry.
-Colluded with a "Council on Foreign Relations" and other bodies, whose members represent the power brokers in both major political parties, the principals in the central bank and mass media, to enact laws, regulations, policies and agencies in pursuit of their primary goal which is the establishment of world governance which would destroy the sovereignty of this Republic.


In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

We the People of this great Republic :

Demand the immediate removal of all foreign troops stationed on the sovereign soil of the united States of America.

Demand that the War Powers Act, the Emergency Powers Act and the Federal Reserve Act be rescinded.

Demand an end to the unconstitutional practice of Executive Orders which carry the force of law, and a rescission of all such Orders.

Demand any acts and agencies derived from the War Powers, Emergency Powers or Federal Reserve Acts or Executive Orders be dissolved.

Demand an immediate rescission of the "National Emergency" maintained in this nation by Executive Order.

Demand the immediate removal of the united States from the foreign body known as the "United Nations".

Demand an end to all United Nations funding both military programs and all other UN programs.

Demand a rescission to all acts, and legislation that in any way infringes on the right to keep and bear arms.

Demand a rescission to all acts, legislation and agencies that exceed the powers described in the constitution according to the 10th amendment.

Demand that all educational concerns be returned to the several states directly and that all federal involvement in the same cease.

Demand all local government and educational institutions to disavow the blackmail and social restructuring of federal funds.

Urge all citizens to become self sufficient as individuals, as families, as localities, as counties and as states.

Urge all liberty loving citizens to prepare, to take the same course of action that our forefathers took in fighting tyranny.


We pledge our lives and honor to the points stated in this document, and the efforts requisite to restore our Constitutional Republic and the Declaration of Independence, Constitution & Bill of Rights which define it.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General population, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these United States, solemnly publish and declare, That these United States are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the Unitary Executive Crown, the Bi-Partisan monopoly on power and that all political connection between them and the Government which currently exists and is corrupted to the core, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

[Osborn F Enready]

Autolykos, Kamehameha, brien, Keith Hamburger, Patrick Henry, Bishop, Scribbler, Clarence, Dunedan, and others who valiantly fight for the rights of individuals, your input is formally requested when you may find the time.

Thank you.

Osborn F. Enready

[Kamehameha34]

I'd add to the list of demands "abolishment of the 16th amendment and all consequent legislation."

[Thanatos]

Too many points to argue against them all, but the part about getting rid of the federal reserve and public schools struck me as odd and impractical. Libertarians confuse me. If you'd just go after the lobbyists and the imminent domain scuzzballs I'd be fine with it, but there's too much other stuff in there that I personally think is best left alone.

[Osborn F Enready]

Kameha said: I'd add to the list of demands "abolishment of the 16th amendment and all consequent legislation."

Good point, I had made a note, and somehow missed its inclusion. Thanks Kameha.

Thanatos said: Too many points to argue against them all, but the part about getting rid of the federal reserve and public schools struck me as odd and impractical.

Well, how much have you studied the philosophy of individual rights and the weight of the concept in Constitutional Law?

Corruption of our Constitutional system is like a weed with long roots, and when you follow the roots of the corruption, you see where the massive amounts of "incentive" for corruption originate. There will be another currency restructuring in the near future, the question is, will the people regain control of their banking system and government before it occurs?

I suggest you study the valid arguments against the Federal Reserve system, the idea of fiat currency with no solid backer, and the role economic liberty plays into individual liberty. Even Alan Greenspan, an obvious master of the Federal Reserve system if there ever was one, admits the obvious flaws in the entire concept.

Thanatos said: Libertarians confuse me. If you'd just go after the lobbyists and the imminent domain scuzzballs I'd be fine with it, but there's too much other stuff in there that I personally think is best left alone.

What and why best left alone?
In what area of your rights and opprotunities for justice, have you NOT been disenfranchised from?

There are two things I could say regarding our differences here.....

1)Trust me, I know what I'm talking about, and you don't...

OR, I could say

2)Don't trust me, please. Verify what I am saying or prove it wrong, study up on the topics listed, and point out where I am logically and contextually wrong.

I prefer the 2nd option, and I feel I am fairly well armed with facts and history to make my cases as I alledged. I encourage and ask for people to contend where I am wrong, provide the reasoning and factual information relevant, and let the debate continue.

All courtesies intended.

[HelioPrime]

A good read. But why use the word "urge?"

Not that I personally like the idea of the welfare state but how do you urge citizens to become self sufficient? If you support a government limited in powers in how it can interact with its citizens then how does one enforce the idea of your urge point?

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal by nature, that they are endowed by nature with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness with sacred respect to these rights. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism or a perverted form of Tyranny, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these United States; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present and past Presidents of the United States, United States Legislative and Judicial branches is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations of our Federal Constitution, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States, and the facillitation of World Government without respect to national, much less, individual soverignty. To illustrate this, let the following conditions speak for themselves : Officials of the federal government (elected and appointed) have : -Been unduly influenced by "special interests" and "lobbyists" who buy votes to pass law not in the common good. -Created laws which deny many citizens their property rights for frivolous and ill-defined reasons. -Created laws infringing on the rights of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms in direct violation of rights enumerated in the Constitution. -Created laws to redistribute the wealth of the working citizenry through a heavy, progressive income tax, violating the Constitution. -Denied the rights of inheritance to citizens of this Republic by imposing heavy inheritance taxes, further redistributing the wealth. -Undermined our sovereignty by signing treaties allowing arbitration of U.S. citizens' rights by foreign bodies. -Created "acts" establishing an unconstitutional framework of "Emergency Powers" and "Executive Orders" which are dictatorial in nature. -Maintained an unwarranted state of emergency since 1933 enabling "Executive Orders", which hang over the head of this people. -Established a privately owned, central bank that regulates the monetary system of this Republic, in violation of the Constitution. -Served baseless warrants on, brought siege to, bombed, burned and killed citizens, covering up the same allowing the guilty to go unpunished. -Weakened the free market through excessive regulation of Agriculture, Manufacturing, Communications and Transportation. -Dictated to property owners who they can and cannot sell to and excessively taxed capital gains from such sales. -Created a system of state schools for our children which feeds upon the political interests of those who would deny our liberties. -Supported the said "state" schools through unconstitutional governmental agencies and reapportioned federal funds. -Denied our heritage by declaring it unconstitutional to teach the values upon which this Republic rests in our schools. -Over regulated who employers may hire, how much to pay and the conditions in the work place, further weakening the free market. -Destroyed the initiative of large portions of the citizenry by maintaining over decades a decadent, fraudulent social welfare system. -Created laws and agencies to maintain power structures and regulations put in place to implement all of the above and control this people. -Destroyed the wellspring of tranquillity in our society by legalizing and supporting the wanton imprisoning of those guilty only of freedom of consumption with their own bodies, by their own choice, as is their right as owners of their bodies, and responsible people for their actions. -Made a mockery of criminal justice by removing context from individual rights, their basis, their founding principles, their intended limits on power of the state and Federal Government. -Housed foreign national armies and illegal citizens on U.S. soil to unwarranted purposes in growing numbers, thereby creating a Trojan Horse in our land. -Colluded with mass media, which is owned by the principals of the central bank, to keep these truths away from the American citizenry. -Colluded with a "Council on Foreign Relations" and other bodies, whose members represent the power brokers in both major political parties, the principals in the central bank and mass media, to enact laws, regulations, policies and agencies in pursuit of their primary goal which is the establishment of world governance which would destroy the sovereignty of this Republic. In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people. We the People of this great Republic : Demand the immediate removal of all foreign troops stationed on the sovereign soil of the united States of America. Demand that the War Powers Act, the Emergency Powers Act and the Federal Reserve Act be rescinded. Demand an end to the unconstitutional practice of Executive Orders which carry the force of law, and a rescission of all such Orders. Demand any acts and agencies derived from the War Powers, Emergency Powers or Federal Reserve Acts or Executive Orders be dissolved. Demand an immediate rescission of the "National Emergency" maintained in this nation by Executive Order. Demand the immediate removal of the united States from the foreign body known as the "United Nations". Demand an end to all United Nations funding both military programs and all other UN programs. Demand a rescission to all acts, and legislation that in any way infringes on the right to keep and bear arms. Demand a rescission to all acts, legislation and agencies that exceed the powers described in the constitution according to the 10th amendment. Demand that all educational concerns be returned to the several states directly and that all federal involvement in the same cease. Demand all local government and educational institutions to disavow the blackmail and social restructuring of federal funds. Urge all citizens to become self sufficient as individuals, as families, as localities, as counties and as states. Urge all liberty loving citizens to prepare, to take the same course of action that our forefathers took in fighting tyranny. We pledge our lives and honor to the points stated in this document, and the efforts requisite to restore our Constitutional Republic and the Declaration of Independence, Constitution & Bill of Rights which define it. We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General population, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these United States, solemnly publish and declare, That these United States are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the Unitary Executive Crown, the Bi-Partisan monopoly on power and that all political connection between them and the Government which currently exists and is corrupted to the core, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

Each of the items indicated should be numbered so that it is clear what someone might wish to debate out of context of the whole.

Who or what is the "Supreme Judge of the world"?

Who are you seeking independance form?

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Good point, I had made a note, and somehow missed its inclusion. Thanks Kameha. Well, how much have you studied the philosophy of individual rights and the weight of the concept in Constitutional Law? Corruption of our Constitutional system is like a weed with long roots, and when you follow the roots of the corruption, you see where the massive amounts of "incentive" for corruption originate. There will be another currency restructuring in the near future, the question is, will the people regain control of their banking system and government before it occurs? I suggest you study the valid arguments against the Federal Reserve system, the idea of fiat currency with no solid backer, and the role economic liberty plays into individual liberty. Even Alan Greenspan, an obvious master of the Federal Reserve system if there ever was one, admits the obvious flaws in the entire concept. What and why best left alone? In what area of your rights and opprotunities for justice, have you NOT been disenfranchised from? There are two things I could say regarding our differences here..... 1)Trust me, I know what I'm talking about, and you don't... OR, I could say 2)Don't trust me, please. Verify what I am saying or prove it wrong, study up on the topics listed, and point out where I am logically and contextually wrong. I prefer the 2nd option, and I feel I am fairly well armed with facts and history to make my cases as I alledged. I encourage and ask for people to contend where I am wrong, provide the reasoning and factual information relevant, and let the debate continue. All courtesies intended.

As I said, too many things to argue against all at once. Each and every one of those topics could turn into a standalone multipage thread. The issue is not me estimating your intelligence to be low but me estimating my time and energy to be finite.

Lets start with a public school system. I say we need one in order to ensure that every child in America has access to a basic education. Being upset about not having your political views expressed in the school system is one thing, but wanting to get rid of public education entirely? Explain yourself.

[The Decider]

Osborne, I'm impressed by the amount of work you put into this document. Thanks for sharing it.

I have a couple of definitional and substantive questions:

What do you mean by "appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world?" (also Techno's question)

What is a "Unitary Executive Crown?"

What foreign troops are you referring to in the statement, "Demand the immediate removal of all foreign troops stationed on the sovereign soil of the united States of America?"

Why do you begin the document with a statement of "seperation," but end it with reference to "the United States of America?" In other words, it appears that you are calling for independent nations/states, not "united states." It seems a little confusing.

[Milton Bradley]

You also need a provision negating the validity of all U.S. Code as precedent setting law.

[Technosoul]

I must assume that the independance that you are seeking, along with those who join in that activity, is independance form the Federal Government, not as an idenity, but due to the manner in which it is acting or operating, and has been so doing for a while, namely in respect to the Consitution, as you believe it should be interpreted (minus a few possible admendments?).

And then you would form a new government, keeping the same Consitution and Bill of Rights, but without those parts which you feel have violated the intent and purposes of that document. And you made a list of those violations that you disaproved of.

This was done twice before. After a bloody war they won independance from the government of England, and later on a number of southern states conducted a war to gain independance from the Federal government, resulting in the civil war, but they were defeated and did not gain the independance they were seeking. One reason the southern states did not win their independance is because the northern states did not join them in that revolution, and remained loyal to the Federal Government (Republic), as well as the idealism that "united we stand".

One Island state is now concidering such independance.

In the 1960s the Hippy movement attempted to gain independance from the "establishment" which included the Federal and State governments and they did so with a grass roots movement and through creating a code of non-conformity, which was popular for a while, then faded away.

Even so that temporay indpendance was won at a price, which included protests, violence, and bloodshed. But later surrendered.

Now the time has come again, people want a change.

We could do it at the voting booths, through the Supreme Court, or via military like action. (which might require a leader?).

Your signature idea would certainly be a start. (putting the so called polls or potical winds for change into writing and documented by signatures).

If you and others happened to get lots of people to sign that declaired goal, no doubt pressure would be brought upon those who oganized that effort. (some of you might die just at that stage, potentially). But such fears do not stop those in the spirit of such a movement.

But for success on your part I do not think signatures from individual citizens would be enough. The states would need to also make that announcment - by the Governors of those states, or some standing poltical body within the state governments. As that would make it offical and more consitutional under your guidelines. Namely that the states would demand their rightful powers as seperated from the Federal Government. The 2nd and most important aspect for success is to have a large majority of states uniting in agreement to create a new re-creation of the Federal Government. So that in case of a actural civil war states in minority could not defeat the revolutionary states, which would be the majority.
(learning from the North vs South civial war).

The final aspect for success on your part would be that those states that take part in that revolution would need to get arms for their national guards (over which they would proclaim full authority of (over)). And then the revolutionary states could pass laws that they can draft people into the their national guard (which then would correctly be their "State Guard" military. along with a voluntary branch that would precede the drafted ones. The reason being is that states are allowed to buy better weapons then private people can buy - even tanks I believe?

However, concerning your document that people would sign, I would suggest changes (that I might address later on). One in particular is to remove or reword the phraise " the Great Authority Of The World". It sounds too religious and like as if you are planning a holy war of some kind. Currently not a popular idea. Therefore - white out that line.

I hope these comments are within the expectations of your O.P. instructions.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Autolykos, Kamehameha, brien, Keith Hamburger, Patrick Henry, Bishop, Scribbler, Clarence, Dunedan, and others who valiantly fight for the rights of individuals, your input is formally requested when you may find the time. Thank you. Osborn F. Enready

You said, "-Been unduly influenced by "special interests" and "lobbyists" who buy votes to pass law not in the common good." Is there any such thing as "duly influenced"?

I have no problem with the document, though it does seem to have the effect of dissolving the Constitution and the government founded by it.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I have used the work of others, and myself, to assemble this Declaration, and would appreciate constructive debate to find any shortcomings it contains before going public and collecting signatures. Thread guidelines: -Please read the Declaration before posting. -Please make all constructive criticism objective and coherant. -Please avoid derailing this thread, or its intended purpose. -Please feel free to debate any/all of this Declaration while remaining on point, on topic, and within the guidelines set forth by the OP.(me) Thank you in advance for both your cooperation, and hopefully your guided input. Declaration follows in post#2:

Are the thread guidelines posted above open to debate in this thread, or are those guidelines concidered off topic? Or must we stick only with responding to post #2 ?

For in order to debate post #2 we the posters must be able to fully understand the meaning of the guideline, in order to conform too it.

Especially the rule " please avoid derailing the intended purpose of this thread ". Does the word "please" apply?

What is the intended purpose of this thread, to know that we would need to know the intended motive behind the re-creation of the Federal Government, assuming it would still exsist as discribed by the Consitution?

Is the purpose an activity to give control to a 3rd Party agenda by taking away the powers claimed by the two political parties that now dominate Congress and the federal government in general?

If I held the opinon that such is the case, do the guidelines allow for a debate on that observation, or would that detrail the purposes intended by the proposed new document (and the motives behind it's construction)? In other words, would the document be used as a means to by-pass the voting booth because the elections have been manipulated by the mainstream media such that 3rd party canidates are not allowed to take part in media "on air" debates during prime time hours? ( which is of course, unfair but now permitted via newly established laws). And to by-pass the current authority of the Supreme Court (and lower areas of the court systems)?

Does the motive in anyway have in mind the desire to permit people to use and employ their rights to keep, bear, and use arms to overpower the standing government which is being viewed as a threat to our life, liberty, and pursuit of happyness? In other words, is that motive related to the NRA or gun control issues and the interpretation of the 2nd amendment, to in fact create a situation where NRA supporters can use their guns to fight for those "rights" as discribed relative to a civil war?

Please do not respond to this post until the creator of the guidelines tells you that it is okay to do so. As these remarks are only, at this time, directed to the O.P. creator. For the purpose of gaining a clearification of stated guidelines. However if so authorized by that controlling factor, then "motive" can be debated by one and all.

[Mr. Jaggers]

What is this, Mr. Enready? Would you throw out our Constitution, under which this country has existed for more than two centuries, for some Rube Goldberg revision of the Declaration of Independence. It would seem to give the Constitution, which is the very foundation of our nation, and fount of our rights and liberties, rather short shrift.

[Osborn F Enready]

Helio said: Not that I personally like the idea of the welfare state but how do you urge citizens to become self sufficient?

The "urge" starts with education, and frank discussion of the entitlements that have created the inefficiency, and fraudulent waste in the government system as it is today.

There is a lot of power in words that come from the system, if the words ring of truth, address the issues, and are consistent throughout.

It is also important to urge people to do this, because whether they are removed or left alone, entitlements are coming to an end, either by going broke, or by removing them legally.

Helio said: If you support a government limited in powers in how it can interact with its citizens then how does one enforce the idea of your urge point?

Education and frank discussion don't require the use of force.

Point blank, we need to tell people they can't expect certain services to be performed by government, as it was never intended, and is financially and individually irresponsible, and inefficient.

Techno said: Each of the items indicated should be numbered so that it is clear what someone might wish to debate out of context of the whole.

This is a first draft, I put forth for public scrutiny before several other drafts that will lead to the final draft.

It is not perfect, and if you wish to participate, please deal with some of the shortcomings that arise from these types of procedures in an unformal setting.

Techno said: Who or what is the "Supreme Judge of the world"?

That is an individual opinion. Some say a god of some type. Some say the people of the world as a collective. Some say nature.

It is addressed in theory to the people of the world, all governments, by one uniform people who will eventually sign their names to it.

Techno said: Who are you seeking independance form?

Is that not obvious? From a government that has veered away from Constitutional Law, protecting individual rights, and at every turn and opprotunity attempts to infringe in the daily lives of innocent, peaceful peoples. (A.K.A., THE US GOVERNMENT AS IT EXISTS TODAY)

Thanatos said: As I said, too many things to argue against all at once. Each and every one of those topics could turn into a standalone multipage thread.

That can happen if you wish to take the initiative to start a thread about what you disagree with in this thread.
I certainly have no objection to it.

Thanatos said: The issue is not me estimating your intelligence to be low but me estimating my time and energy to be finite.

No explanation necessary.

Thanatos said: Lets start with a public school system. I say we need one in order to ensure that every child in America has access to a basic education.

Fine, I respect your opinion, and would also expect you to show why ONLY a public system could do such. I happen to know that privatized systems, and home-schooling can do better, and am willing to counter your evidence and arguments once you put them on the table.

Thanatos said: Being upset about not having your political views expressed in the school system is one thing, but wanting to get rid of public education entirely? Explain yourself.

There is no Constitutional Basis for public funded education, especially as it currently exists.

I challenge you to show me where the Constitution provides for this type of law, tax collection and demands of the people.

Fair enough?

[Osborn F Enready]

The Decider said: Osborne, I'm impressed by the amount of work you put into this document. Thanks for sharing it.

I thank you for noting that, but in all honesty, it was rather hastily assembled, which is one of the reasons I wanted public participation in the finalization and proof-reading.

I borrowed some portions from the original, and some portions from another similar document put forth by more "religious extremists", but some of it is also my work and words.

I just can't claim "full rights" to the written words as they stand before the final draft.

the Decider said: I have a couple of definitional and substantive questions:

Sure, no problem, I encourage them.

Decider said: What do you mean by "appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world?" (also Techno's question)

The declaration is written as a "notice to all people of the world" not just a specific group. The supreme judge of the world is the tolerance of the worlds people, or nature, or a god possibly if you hold those views.

It is an attempt to address all people, without excluding or missing any of them due to bias.

I am open to better or more "suitable" words if you have any to suggest.

Decider said: What is a "Unitary Executive Crown?"

What exists currently, thanks to "Emergency and War Powers", "Executive Order", and other such vessels of law used to remove the checks and balances built into the system.

Decider said: What foreign troops are you referring to in the statement, "Demand the immediate removal of all foreign troops stationed on the sovereign soil of the united States of America?"

Exactly what it says, with exception only to protection for foreign embassies.

Decider said: Why do you begin the document with a statement of "seperation," but end it with reference to "the United States of America?" In other words, it appears that you are calling for independent nations/states, not "united states." It seems a little confusing.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I am intending to put forth a solution that would again draw on the "common threads" which originally bound us as independent states, united under a common cause, that being the protection and isolation of individual rights from infringement without clear just cause, as set forth in our Constitution prior to its littany of transgressions over the last 150 years.

Do you understand my points of argument? If not, please ask for more clarity and I will try to provide it.

Chancellor said: You said, "-Been unduly influenced by "special interests" and "lobbyists" who buy votes to pass law not in the common good." Is there any such thing as "duly influenced"?

Ha, good point. Perhaps you can work with me in proposing a better language to convey the same expressed thoughts?

Chancellor said: I have no problem with the document, though it does seem to have the effect of dissolving the Constitution and the government founded by it.

Well, it is intended to do quite the opposite. I am intending to use this as a final appeal to the government to rectify itself, before the people must resort to arms to right the wrongs committed that are treasonous in spirit and action of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and draggin our nation into a pit of world disrespect, illegal wars and national lawlessness once the economy collapses, or the government totally disrespected as well as the concept of law it is meant to uphold.

[Osborn F Enready]

Mr Jaggers said: What is this, Mr. Enready?

I thought the title pretty much made it clear.

Mr Jaggers said: Would you throw out our Constitution, under which this country has existed for more than two centuries, for some Rube Goldberg revision of the Declaration of Independence.

Excuse me sir, but this system in no-way resembles the Constitution and Bill of Rights it holds as its "Law of the Land" in any way, shape or form.

As far as the Rube Goldberg comment, I can let that pass.

I am curious....

Could you show me a single individual right that has not been infringed on EVERY level through law at the federal level in some way?

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