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RebelWithanAK · Oct 20, 2003, 01:16 am

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/.../britt_23_2.htm

Of the 14 issues, how many can YOU identify?

Section 8 · Oct 20, 2003, 01:25 am

US gets 12 out of 14. We're getting close to the USSR's record.

Waychel · Oct 20, 2003, 01:32 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Historical comparisons like these are just exercises in verbal gymnastics. Maybe, maybe not.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You've got that for sure. =PpP Of course if you read deep enough into something and look for similarities, you will find them. I could very well compare the pope to the antichrist.

Still, one or two of those comparisons seem to hold weight as America does appear to be heading in their direction. It is interesting.

The Devil · Oct 20, 2003, 01:38 am

Yeah, some of those describe the good old US of A to the tee. The rest are just very close. It's a pretty sick world we're stuck in.

Section 8 · Oct 20, 2003, 10:05 am

Only some Waychel?
Here's a list:
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights.
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.
6. A controlled mass media.
7. Obsession with national security.
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together.
9. Power of corporations protected.
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
12. Obsession with crime and punishment.
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption.
14. Fraudulent elections.

The only things we're missing is rampant sexism and supression of intellectuals and the arts. Just wait a couple years, and we'll be exactly like the USSR.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 20, 2003, 11:16 am

Supression of intellectuals and the arts? What about all the disdain for professors and university opinion because they're all "extremist leftist" academics in their ivory towers? What about cuts to federal support for the arts?

castille · Oct 20, 2003, 11:33 am

Actually, you're wrong.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Nationalism has ALWAYS been a character of the US since its founding. Most countries also have nationalism....when I joined Youth Pioneers (Chinese compulsory thing), we sang nationalistic songs, learnt how we kicked the Americans off Korea, and how Tibetians are pretty stupid (we all agreed on that actually). In Europe they also have nationalism....go to Germany and say "Germans are wankers!" and see how they react.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
2. Disdain for human rights<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
You mean Saddam killing his civilians for no reason? Russia exterminating Chechen villages? Rwanda setting loose youth mobs to kill off unwanted political opponents? Zimbabwe? Libya? Syria? Go to those countries, and tell me the US has a disdain for human rights.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You mean how Communists blame the US and corporations for everything? "Oh no, I kicked the table! Lets all blame capitalism!"

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You mean North Korea, who spends 25% of their GDP on their military? Or Japan's spending, who is larger than that of China? Or do you mean Saddam, whose military spending topped 47% of Iraq's GDP (while his non-military people starved). The US doesn't spend more than 3% of the GDP on the armed forces....

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
6. A controlled mass media.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

US mass media companies are private companies, controlled by shareholders (the US public). In contrast, countries like Libya and Saddam's Irak and Zimbabwe have state-controlled media. Did you hear about Mugabe shutting down another independent newspaper? I guess not - you're too busy sprouting hate against America.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
7. Obsession with national security.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Every country in the world is obssessed with national security since the terrorist attacks. Australia has been fretting on about security since the Islamic bombing in Bali. Russia has been....well they've been shooting Chechens to protect their national security.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Just because you hate religion doesnt make it evil (unless your name is Hitler). So Bush used some religious sayings in his speeches....so did Clinton. And so did the Vatican.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
9. Power of corporations protected.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You mean the guys who sue McDonalds because they spill coffee over their hands? Or people who sue Microsoft (and win!) because they accidently dropped their computer while installing Windows 2000. Its stupidity thats being protected in America, not corporations.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Oh no, the workers are no longer supporting unions now! Boo hoo....unions never did much for workers except make their conditions worse (and pocket the money for themselves). Japan doesn't even bother with unions, and their workers are fanatically devoted.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
12. Obsession with crime and punishment.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Would you prefer a society that allows psycho serial killers out? I recall the democrats allowed a man named Willie Horton out of jail....he killed a couple and rape a girl before being arrested AGAIN.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You've never left the US, have you? Over in China, we bribe teachers to treat our kids better. My parents used to treat my teacher to little gifts in order to get them to help me with my schoolwork.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
14. Fraudulent elections.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Prove it. Prove BEYOND DOUBT, legally and technically, Bush rigged the elections. On a similiar note, Bush would be in jail if he was caught rigging elections. Sorry, but this isn't some Communist country, you know. Just because Castro is good at making up election polls doesnt mean Bush is....

I bet if the Democrats won, you wouldnt be complaining about rigged elections?

So what is so fascist about the US?

castille · Oct 20, 2003, 11:37 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
What about all the disdain for professors and university opinion because they're all "extremist leftist" academics in their ivory towers?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Er...the public has always had a healthy disdain for intellectuals. See, those professors DO sit in their ivory towers (I have yet to see a SINGLE university professor preach anything beyond their textbook theories), and they never contribute to society.

Its funny they have so much to criticise, yet they've never been in front line action. I'm quite happy to cut all funding to the ivory tower critics and force them into the real world for once.

Anyone whose attended universities will certainly know how pompous their professors are. Ask any of them if they've seen the real world.

G. Adams · Oct 20, 2003, 02:49 pm

Actually my university proffessor, (he is hard left, he writes for the weekly worker), for political sociology has been out to most of the protests around europe, and a few in the americas, and has the scars and photoes to prove it.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 20, 2003, 05:21 pm

You don't get a PhD by being ignorant. At the same time, Bush didn't even have a passport until he was President.

The Devil · Oct 20, 2003, 09:56 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
Actually, you're wrong.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Just because you say it, doesn't make it true.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)

Nationalism has ALWAYS been a character of the US since its founding. Most countries also have nationalism....when I joined Youth Pioneers (Chinese compulsory thing), we sang nationalistic songs, learnt how we kicked the Americans off Korea, and how Tibetians are pretty stupid (we all agreed on that actually). In Europe they also have nationalism....go to Germany and say "Germans are wankers!" and see how they react.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Nationalism is a really stupid concept. "I love this piece of land I just happen to live on! I'm the best because I was born behind the borders of so-and-so country, even though borders are man-made anyway!"

I mean, really... look at it from an outside perspective. Loving your country is retarded.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
You mean Saddam killing his civilians for no reason? Russia exterminating Chechen villages? Rwanda setting loose youth mobs to kill off unwanted political opponents? Zimbabwe? Libya? Syria? Go to those countries, and tell me the US has a disdain for human rights.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I, and many other people consider privacy a human right. I also don't think allowing cops to walk into people's houses without a warrant is acceptable.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
You mean how Communists blame the US and corporations for everything? "Oh no, I kicked the table! Lets all blame capitalism!"<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No, more like how the Arabs (terrorists, sorry) are blamed for all of the problems.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
You mean North Korea, who spends 25% of their GDP on their military? Or Japan's spending, who is larger than that of China? Or do you mean Saddam, whose military spending topped 47% of Iraq's GDP (while his non-military people starved). The US doesn't spend more than 3% of the GDP on the armed forces....<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I recall the Gulf War 2 being played on CNN like it was a sporting event. I think that qualifies for too much militarism.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
US mass media companies are private companies, controlled by shareholders (the US public). In contrast, countries like Libya and Saddam's Irak and Zimbabwe have state-controlled media. Did you hear about Mugabe shutting down another independent newspaper? I guess not - you're too busy sprouting hate against America.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Can you tell me how many mass media companies there are in the US? I'm not sure myself, but I do know it's a very low number.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
Every country in the world is obssessed with national security since the terrorist attacks. Australia has been fretting on about security since the Islamic bombing in Bali. Russia has been....well they've been shooting Chechens to protect their national security.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I have no problem with worrying about national security, but when things like the Patriot Act are passed, there's a problem. And I really don't care what Russia is doing.. the fact that you have to talk about Russia's atrocities to make America not seem so bad is scary.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
Just because you hate religion doesnt make it evil (unless your name is Hitler). So Bush used some religious sayings in his speeches....so did Clinton. And so did the Vatican.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No leader should ever say anything religious, especially in a country with so many different religions.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
You mean the guys who sue McDonalds because they spill coffee over their hands? Or people who sue Microsoft (and win!) because they accidently dropped their computer while installing Windows 2000. Its stupidity thats being protected in America, not corporations.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Can't say I feel bad for Microsoft ;). I do agree though, the fact that you can sue for just about anything is absurd. But you also have to remember that corporations DO seem to have more rights. The RIAA can have ISPs give out people's personal info, but there's no way I could get it.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
Oh no, the workers are no longer supporting unions now! Boo hoo....unions never did much for workers except make their conditions worse (and pocket the money for themselves). Japan doesn't even bother with unions, and their workers are fanatically devoted.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Can't say I like the idea of unions. And actually, this is one of the points in the article that didn't remind me of America.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
Would you prefer a society that allows psycho serial killers out? I recall the democrats allowed a man named Willie Horton out of jail....he killed a couple and rape a girl before being arrested AGAIN.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Face it, the laws in the US are fairly draconian. The Patriot Act. The DMCA. Those both infringe upon too many rights for comfort.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
You've never left the US, have you? Over in China, we bribe teachers to treat our kids better. My parents used to treat my teacher to little gifts in order to get them to help me with my schoolwork.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Who was talking about China? On that note, I think China is worse than the US in almost every respect.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
Prove it. Prove BEYOND DOUBT, legally and technically, Bush rigged the elections. On a similiar note, Bush would be in jail if he was caught rigging elections. Sorry, but this isn't some Communist country, you know. Just because Castro is good at making up election polls doesnt mean Bush is....

I bet if the Democrats won, you wouldnt be complaining about rigged elections?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I'm not sure what it takes for you to consider something "beyond doubt" proof, but my perception of you so far is that not a lot of things would be worthy enough. If you want, I could dig up lots of evidence, but will it be good enough? I don't know if it's worth my effort.

I noticed a few fundamental flaws in almost everything you said.
1. You constantly compare to places you consider "worse". Nobody was talking about these places. This is a sign that you're accepting less than perfect, simply because it's not the worst it could be, and that's a formula for disaster.
2. You're starting responses with interrogative sentences. The Socratic method won't work on me, sorry. When people answer questions with more questions it usually means they're unsure of themselves.

Have a nice day :)

Oh, and I'd just like to add that I'm not a leftist in any way, and I don't care for the democratic party :p.

Section 8 · Oct 25, 2003, 12:06 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You mean Saddam killing his civilians for no reason? Russia exterminating Chechen villages? Rwanda setting loose youth mobs to kill off unwanted political opponents? Zimbabwe? Libya? Syria? Go to those countries, and tell me the US has a disdain for human rights<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No I mean Pinochet and Iraq. US opposes totalatarianism you say? Well, then I suggest you read up on Cuba under Batista, El Salvador, Turkey, Indonesia, Vietnam, South Korea, or Cambodia. US encourages democratically elected leaders you say? Well, then I suggest you read up on ran, Guatemala, or Nicaragua, and Chile.

castille · Nov 1, 2003, 10:19 pm

What about the Soviets? Every single country the Soviets have supported were dictatorships. Poland, Hungary, Rumania, Czechslovakia...hold on a sec. All those countries were controlled by Moscow in an iron fist (ask the Czechs if they remember Russian tanks running their people over).

You ask me not to bring up Cold War facts....but you are doing the same. US supported dictatorships like Vietnam, South Korea, China (under Nationalism), Cuba, etc. Yet all those countries have changed governments ever since.

We can go on and on about the faults of the US - but the fact remains that the United States, irregardless of petty faults, is still better than a lot of other countries.

How many private-owned media are there in Libya? Saddam's Irak? In fact, I recall Germany has less independent media sources than the United States.

However, since you enjoy picking on small faults, then here is a few: people are still dying in the US! Oh no! Evil America hasn't invented immortality yet! Lets go and rant on about human rights! And Americans kill billions of ants and beetles each day! Shocker!

The Devil · Nov 1, 2003, 10:29 pm

Answer my points instead of going around them and sticking up for America because there's something worse. You tire me.

G. Adams · Nov 2, 2003, 09:49 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
What about the Soviets? Every single country the Soviets have supported were dictatorships. Poland, Hungary, Rumania, Czechslovakia...hold on a sec. All those countries were controlled by Moscow in an iron fist (ask the Czechs if they remember Russian tanks running their people over).

You ask me not to bring up Cold War facts....but you are doing the same. US supported dictatorships like Vietnam, South Korea, China (under Nationalism), Cuba, etc. Yet all those countries have changed governments ever since.

We can go on and on about the faults of the US - but the fact remains that the United States, irregardless of petty faults, is still better than a lot of other countries.

How many private-owned media are there in Libya? Saddam's Irak? In fact, I recall Germany has less independent media sources than the United States.

However, since you enjoy picking on small faults, then here is a few: people are still dying in the US! Oh no! Evil America hasn't invented immortality yet! Lets go and rant on about human rights! And Americans kill billions of ants and beetles each day! Shocker!<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Your ignoring the point entirely. So many people hold up the US as some great thing, a beacon of democracy and liberty. Its not, its just as bad as any empire, including the Soviet one, the british one or the french one.

We're not saying its better or worse than the USSR, were just trying to demystify it, so people can see it how it really is.

RebelWithanAK · Nov 2, 2003, 11:06 am

And for that matter, don't you mean Saddam's Iraq? Besides, how can you possibly say it's a waste of our time to critique the US so long as we're better than a third-world dictatorship? Aren't you setting the standards really, really low?

castille · Nov 2, 2003, 11:47 am

I set my standards according to the international average. Scientifically that is the only real measure of such a concept.

On human rights....the US does far better than average.

G. Adams · Nov 2, 2003, 12:33 pm

Which is why it was thrown off the UN Commision on Human Rights.

Oh no wait, it was thrown off because it repeatedly committs attrocities as well as supporting regimes who commit them.

Such as good ol' Uzbekistan, which boils people to death, then sends the bodies back to the families. And GB, with its new 'ethical' foreign policy, fired its ambassodar in Uzbekistan when he told reporters this.

RebelWithanAK · Nov 2, 2003, 01:52 pm

Not only are we responsible for a considerable number of human rights violations pertaining to our foreign and domestic policies, we've funded more guerilla fighters and caused more violent overthrows than any one nation in history. You can't really say "we're better than the average" when we've had a hand in making the average so god-damned low. I mean, in the last 20 years in the Middle East we've given $12 billion to arm and train Osama-and-co to make the Russians' lives a living hell in Afghanistan (with only a slight side effect of making the Afghanis' lives a living hell in Afghanistan), we've sold $76 billion worth of arms and advisors to both sides of the Iraq/Iran conflict, and are now funding and supporting Kurdish guerilla forces after having given Turkey and Iraq helicopters and chemicals to destroy them. We've allowed Israel an army worthy of a country ten times its size, and turned a blind eye to the more than 150 UN violations these past two decades alone. And that's not going into the lovely bits of Lebanon and Yemen and Syria and Saudi Arabia that we've helped foster. So how are we a bastion of Human Rights? We just fund other people to do our dirty work and then wipe our hands of it when everything goes to shit!

castille · Nov 10, 2003, 09:22 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
Which is why it was thrown off the UN Commision on Human Rights.

Oh no wait, it was thrown off because it repeatedly committs attrocities as well as supporting regimes who commit them.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I find it odd that China and Syria were put on the UN Commission on Human Rights....even I admit both Syria and China aren't exactly humanitarians.

You leftists are taking random events and trying to make it sound like the US is some pit of evil. Don't forget the fact that the US supported democracy in Western Europe, Asia, and that the majority of former US client states are real democracies.

We've allowed Israel an army worthy of a country ten times its size

So? Israel was surrounded by Arab armies 40 times worthy of their own size. When you're surrounded by crazy maniacs who want to kill you, your only option is to fight fiercely.

Also Syria's ground troops are far more numerous than Israel.

Oct 20, 2003, 01:16 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/.../britt_23_2.htm Of the 14 issues, how many can YOU identify? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 20, 2003, 01:32 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Historical comparisons like these are just exercises in verbal gymnastics. Maybe, maybe not.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You've got that for sure. =PpP Of course if you read deep enough into something and look for similarities, you will find them. I could very well compare the pope to the antichrist. Still, one or two of those comparisons seem to hold weight as America does appear to be heading in their direction. It is interesting. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Oct 20, 2003, 11:16 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Supression of intellectuals and the arts? What about all the disdain for professors and university opinion because they're all "extremist leftist" academics in their ivory towers? What about cuts to federal support for the arts? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 20, 2003, 11:33 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Actually, you're wrong. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Nationalism has ALWAYS been a character of the US since its founding. Most countries also have nationalism....when I joined Youth Pioneers (Chinese compulsory thing), we sang nationalistic songs, learnt how we kicked the Americans off Korea, and how Tibetians are pretty stupid (we all agreed on that actually). In Europe they also have nationalism....go to Germany and say "Germans are wankers!" and see how they react. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 2. Disdain for human rights<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You mean Saddam killing his civilians for no reason? Russia exterminating Chechen villages? Rwanda setting loose youth mobs to kill off unwanted political opponents? Zimbabwe? Libya? Syria? Go to those countries, and tell me the US has a disdain for human rights. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You mean how Communists blame the US and corporations for everything? "Oh no, I kicked the table! Lets all blame capitalism!" </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You mean North Korea, who spends 25% of their GDP on their military? Or Japan's spending, who is larger than that of China? Or do you mean Saddam, whose military spending topped 47% of Iraq's GDP (while his non-military people starved). The US doesn't spend more than 3% of the GDP on the armed forces.... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 6. A controlled mass media.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> US mass media companies are private companies, controlled by shareholders (the US public). In contrast, countries like Libya and Saddam's Irak and Zimbabwe have state-controlled media. Did you hear about Mugabe shutting down another independent newspaper? I guess not - you're too busy sprouting hate against America. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 7. Obsession with national security.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Every country in the world is obssessed with national security since the terrorist attacks. Australia has been fretting on about security since the Islamic bombing in Bali. Russia has been....well they've been shooting Chechens to protect their national security. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 8. Religion and ruling elite tied together.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Just because you hate religion doesnt make it evil (unless your name is Hitler). So Bush used some religious sayings in his speeches....so did Clinton. And so did the Vatican. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 9. Power of corporations protected.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You mean the guys who sue McDonalds because they spill coffee over their hands? Or people who sue Microsoft (and win!) because they accidently dropped their computer while installing Windows 2000. Its stupidity thats being protected in America, not corporations. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Oh no, the workers are no longer supporting unions now! Boo hoo....unions never did much for workers except make their conditions worse (and pocket the money for themselves). Japan doesn't even bother with unions, and their workers are fanatically devoted. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 12. Obsession with crime and punishment.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Would you prefer a society that allows psycho serial killers out? I recall the democrats allowed a man named Willie Horton out of jail....he killed a couple and rape a girl before being arrested AGAIN. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 13. Rampant cronyism and corruption.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You've never left the US, have you? Over in China, we bribe teachers to treat our kids better. My parents used to treat my teacher to little gifts in order to get them to help me with my schoolwork. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 14. Fraudulent elections.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Prove it. Prove BEYOND DOUBT, legally and technically, Bush rigged the elections. On a similiar note, Bush would be in jail if he was caught rigging elections. Sorry, but this isn't some Communist country, you know. Just because Castro is good at making up election polls doesnt mean Bush is.... I bet if the Democrats won, you wouldnt be complaining about rigged elections? So what is so fascist about the US? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 20, 2003, 11:37 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) What about all the disdain for professors and university opinion because they're all "extremist leftist" academics in their ivory towers?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Er...the public has always had a healthy disdain for intellectuals. See, those professors DO sit in their ivory towers (I have yet to see a SINGLE university professor preach anything beyond their textbook theories), and they never contribute to society. Its funny they have so much to criticise, yet they've never been in front line action. I'm quite happy to cut all funding to the ivory tower critics and force them into the real world for once. Anyone whose attended universities will certainly know how pompous their professors are. Ask any of them if they've seen the real world. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 20, 2003, 01:25 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	US gets 12 out of 14. We're getting close to the USSR's record.

Oct 20, 2003, 01:38 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
The Devil Molten Ash Location: Canada Posts: 55	Yeah, some of those describe the good old US of A to the tee. The rest are just very close. It's a pretty sick world we're stuck in.

Oct 20, 2003, 10:05 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Only some Waychel? Here's a list: 1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. 2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. 3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. 4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. 6. A controlled mass media. 7. Obsession with national security. 8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. 9. Power of corporations protected. 10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. 12. Obsession with crime and punishment. 13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. 14. Fraudulent elections. The only things we're missing is rampant sexism and supression of intellectuals and the arts. Just wait a couple years, and we'll be exactly like the USSR.

Oct 20, 2003, 02:49 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Actually my university proffessor, (he is hard left, he writes for the weekly worker), for political sociology has been out to most of the protests around europe, and a few in the americas, and has the scars and photoes to prove it. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 20, 2003, 05:21 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	You don't get a PhD by being ignorant. At the same time, Bush didn't even have a passport until he was President. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 20, 2003, 09:56 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
The Devil Molten Ash Location: Canada Posts: 55	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) Actually, you're wrong.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) Nationalism has ALWAYS been a character of the US since its founding. Most countries also have nationalism....when I joined Youth Pioneers (Chinese compulsory thing), we sang nationalistic songs, learnt how we kicked the Americans off Korea, and how Tibetians are pretty stupid (we all agreed on that actually). In Europe they also have nationalism....go to Germany and say "Germans are wankers!" and see how they react.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Nationalism is a really stupid concept. "I love this piece of land I just happen to live on! I'm the best because I was born behind the borders of so-and-so country, even though borders are man-made anyway!" I mean, really... look at it from an outside perspective. Loving your country is retarded. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) You mean Saddam killing his civilians for no reason? Russia exterminating Chechen villages? Rwanda setting loose youth mobs to kill off unwanted political opponents? Zimbabwe? Libya? Syria? Go to those countries, and tell me the US has a disdain for human rights.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I, and many other people consider privacy a human right. I also don't think allowing cops to walk into people's houses without a warrant is acceptable. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) You mean how Communists blame the US and corporations for everything? "Oh no, I kicked the table! Lets all blame capitalism!"<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No, more like how the Arabs (terrorists, sorry) are blamed for all of the problems. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) You mean North Korea, who spends 25% of their GDP on their military? Or Japan's spending, who is larger than that of China? Or do you mean Saddam, whose military spending topped 47% of Iraq's GDP (while his non-military people starved). The US doesn't spend more than 3% of the GDP on the armed forces....<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I recall the Gulf War 2 being played on CNN like it was a sporting event. I think that qualifies for too much militarism. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) US mass media companies are private companies, controlled by shareholders (the US public). In contrast, countries like Libya and Saddam's Irak and Zimbabwe have state-controlled media. Did you hear about Mugabe shutting down another independent newspaper? I guess not - you're too busy sprouting hate against America.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Can you tell me how many mass media companies there are in the US? I'm not sure myself, but I do know it's a very low number. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) Every country in the world is obssessed with national security since the terrorist attacks. Australia has been fretting on about security since the Islamic bombing in Bali. Russia has been....well they've been shooting Chechens to protect their national security.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I have no problem with worrying about national security, but when things like the Patriot Act are passed, there's a problem. And I really don't care what Russia is doing.. the fact that you have to talk about Russia's atrocities to make America not seem so bad is scary. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) Just because you hate religion doesnt make it evil (unless your name is Hitler). So Bush used some religious sayings in his speeches....so did Clinton. And so did the Vatican.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No leader should ever say anything religious, especially in a country with so many different religions. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) You mean the guys who sue McDonalds because they spill coffee over their hands? Or people who sue Microsoft (and win!) because they accidently dropped their computer while installing Windows 2000. Its stupidity thats being protected in America, not corporations.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Can't say I feel bad for Microsoft ;). I do agree though, the fact that you can sue for just about anything is absurd. But you also have to remember that corporations DO seem to have more rights. The RIAA can have ISPs give out people's personal info, but there's no way I could get it. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) Oh no, the workers are no longer supporting unions now! Boo hoo....unions never did much for workers except make their conditions worse (and pocket the money for themselves). Japan doesn't even bother with unions, and their workers are fanatically devoted.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Can't say I like the idea of unions. And actually, this is one of the points in the article that didn't remind me of America. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) Would you prefer a society that allows psycho serial killers out? I recall the democrats allowed a man named Willie Horton out of jail....he killed a couple and rape a girl before being arrested AGAIN.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Face it, the laws in the US are fairly draconian. The Patriot Act. The DMCA. Those both infringe upon too many rights for comfort. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) You've never left the US, have you? Over in China, we bribe teachers to treat our kids better. My parents used to treat my teacher to little gifts in order to get them to help me with my schoolwork.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Who was talking about China? On that note, I think China is worse than the US in almost every respect. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) Prove it. Prove BEYOND DOUBT, legally and technically, Bush rigged the elections. On a similiar note, Bush would be in jail if he was caught rigging elections. Sorry, but this isn't some Communist country, you know. Just because Castro is good at making up election polls doesnt mean Bush is.... I bet if the Democrats won, you wouldnt be complaining about rigged elections?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'm not sure what it takes for you to consider something "beyond doubt" proof, but my perception of you so far is that not a lot of things would be worthy enough. If you want, I could dig up lots of evidence, but will it be good enough? I don't know if it's worth my effort. I noticed a few fundamental flaws in almost everything you said. 1. You constantly compare to places you consider "worse". Nobody was talking about these places. This is a sign that you're accepting less than perfect, simply because it's not the worst it could be, and that's a formula for disaster. 2. You're starting responses with interrogative sentences. The Socratic method won't work on me, sorry. When people answer questions with more questions it usually means they're unsure of themselves. Have a nice day :) Oh, and I'd just like to add that I'm not a leftist in any way, and I don't care for the democratic party :p.

Oct 25, 2003, 12:06 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by You mean Saddam killing his civilians for no reason? Russia exterminating Chechen villages? Rwanda setting loose youth mobs to kill off unwanted political opponents? Zimbabwe? Libya? Syria? Go to those countries, and tell me the US has a disdain for human rights<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No I mean Pinochet and Iraq. US opposes totalatarianism you say? Well, then I suggest you read up on Cuba under Batista, El Salvador, Turkey, Indonesia, Vietnam, South Korea, or Cambodia. US encourages democratically elected leaders you say? Well, then I suggest you read up on ran, Guatemala, or Nicaragua, and Chile.

Nov 1, 2003, 10:19 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	What about the Soviets? Every single country the Soviets have supported were dictatorships. Poland, Hungary, Rumania, Czechslovakia...hold on a sec. All those countries were controlled by Moscow in an iron fist (ask the Czechs if they remember Russian tanks running their people over). You ask me not to bring up Cold War facts....but you are doing the same. US supported dictatorships like Vietnam, South Korea, China (under Nationalism), Cuba, etc. Yet all those countries have changed governments ever since. We can go on and on about the faults of the US - but the fact remains that the United States, irregardless of petty faults, is still better than a lot of other countries. How many private-owned media are there in Libya? Saddam's Irak? In fact, I recall Germany has less independent media sources than the United States. However, since you enjoy picking on small faults, then here is a few: people are still dying in the US! Oh no! Evil America hasn't invented immortality yet! Lets go and rant on about human rights! And Americans kill billions of ants and beetles each day! Shocker! Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Nov 1, 2003, 10:29 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
The Devil Molten Ash Location: Canada Posts: 55	Answer my points instead of going around them and sticking up for America because there's something worse. You tire me.

Nov 2, 2003, 09:49 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) What about the Soviets? Every single country the Soviets have supported were dictatorships. Poland, Hungary, Rumania, Czechslovakia...hold on a sec. All those countries were controlled by Moscow in an iron fist (ask the Czechs if they remember Russian tanks running their people over). You ask me not to bring up Cold War facts....but you are doing the same. US supported dictatorships like Vietnam, South Korea, China (under Nationalism), Cuba, etc. Yet all those countries have changed governments ever since. We can go on and on about the faults of the US - but the fact remains that the United States, irregardless of petty faults, is still better than a lot of other countries. How many private-owned media are there in Libya? Saddam's Irak? In fact, I recall Germany has less independent media sources than the United States. However, since you enjoy picking on small faults, then here is a few: people are still dying in the US! Oh no! Evil America hasn't invented immortality yet! Lets go and rant on about human rights! And Americans kill billions of ants and beetles each day! Shocker!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Your ignoring the point entirely. So many people hold up the US as some great thing, a beacon of democracy and liberty. Its not, its just as bad as any empire, including the Soviet one, the british one or the french one. We're not saying its better or worse than the USSR, were just trying to demystify it, so people can see it how it really is. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Nov 2, 2003, 11:06 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	And for that matter, don't you mean Saddam's Iraq? Besides, how can you possibly say it's a waste of our time to critique the US so long as we're better than a third-world dictatorship? Aren't you setting the standards really, really low? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Nov 2, 2003, 11:47 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	I set my standards according to the international average. Scientifically that is the only real measure of such a concept. On human rights....the US does far better than average. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Nov 2, 2003, 12:33 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Which is why it was thrown off the UN Commision on Human Rights. Oh no wait, it was thrown off because it repeatedly committs attrocities as well as supporting regimes who commit them. Such as good ol' Uzbekistan, which boils people to death, then sends the bodies back to the families. And GB, with its new 'ethical' foreign policy, fired its ambassodar in Uzbekistan when he told reporters this. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Nov 2, 2003, 01:52 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Not only are we responsible for a considerable number of human rights violations pertaining to our foreign and domestic policies, we've funded more guerilla fighters and caused more violent overthrows than any one nation in history. You can't really say "we're better than the average" when we've had a hand in making the average so god-damned low. I mean, in the last 20 years in the Middle East we've given $12 billion to arm and train Osama-and-co to make the Russians' lives a living hell in Afghanistan (with only a slight side effect of making the Afghanis' lives a living hell in Afghanistan), we've sold $76 billion worth of arms and advisors to both sides of the Iraq/Iran conflict, and are now funding and supporting Kurdish guerilla forces after having given Turkey and Iraq helicopters and chemicals to destroy them. We've allowed Israel an army worthy of a country ten times its size, and turned a blind eye to the more than 150 UN violations these past two decades alone. And that's not going into the lovely bits of Lebanon and Yemen and Syria and Saudi Arabia that we've helped foster. So how are we a bastion of Human Rights? We just fund other people to do our dirty work and then wipe our hands of it when everything goes to shit! . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Nov 10, 2003, 09:22 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) Which is why it was thrown off the UN Commision on Human Rights. Oh no wait, it was thrown off because it repeatedly committs attrocities as well as supporting regimes who commit them.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I find it odd that China and Syria were put on the UN Commission on Human Rights....even I admit both Syria and China aren't exactly humanitarians. You leftists are taking random events and trying to make it sound like the US is some pit of evil. Don't forget the fact that the US supported democracy in Western Europe, Asia, and that the majority of former US client states are real democracies. We've allowed Israel an army worthy of a country ten times its size So? Israel was surrounded by Arab armies 40 times worthy of their own size. When you're surrounded by crazy maniacs who want to kill you, your only option is to fight fiercely. Also Syria's ground troops are far more numerous than Israel. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.