Dread the justification of war in Iraq

[LogicaLunatic]

The mere possibility of the war in Iraq being justified, at least in the eyes of the American people, frightens me.

If we let them get away with this HIGHLY questionable war against a neutered country, imagine what we'll allow them to do next.

There are several countries in the ME that could be invaded. Invasions of some of them would require far less justification. I wish we hadn't let them get their foot in the door.

[Scribbler1]

The problem is in your use of the word WE, for starters. This is what it boils down to, WE (meaning the majority of Americans) have been allowing or ignoring things like this for as far back as I can recall. The funny thing is, at the end of the day, I don't really blame the government totally for what is happening (in this case, Iraq) as the politicians will do what they are ALLOWED to do! This is simple human nature. Too many people have fallen for the misguided belief that the people we put in power are somehow BETTER than us (else, why would they BE there, right?). We put them there to take care of us so we don't have to worry about the complex and difficult business of government. I think anyone over the age of 50 can remember how much simpler for the average American those earlier days were. We put the people in power and let them do their thing, seure in the knowledge that they were acting in our best interests, but things changed. TPTB soon realized how much you can get away with when the people abrogate their responsibilities as overseers.

I hate to say it, but I believe the bulk of the blame for Iraq (improper military adventures), Enron-style scandals (improper business practices by huge corporations), poor education and crime, for example, rests primarily with the people and NOT the government.

We have become a feel-good, immediate gratification and politically lazy society. But most of all we are a stupid society. We value style over substance and regard the slogan above the underlying reality. We are a NIMBY driven people who don't worry about what happens on the other side of our fences and would rather hear our elected Mommy and Daddy tell us everything is all right than worry about the real world.

The politicians have seen this degenerative mindset developing for a long time and have actually hastened the decline with the laws of believable lies and plausible deniability. The inept, self serving and corrupt have relied on our ability to absorb the IMMEDIATE and conveniently forget yesterday. In the Nixon administration, Ron Ziegler's remark (when faced with a previous lie) that the previous statement was "inoperative", and getting away with it was more telling (and damning to society) than we ever realized.

Politicians feed on power and will do anything to get and keep it. The fact that we are so easily lied to make their job so much easier and we are a willing audience. Create crime with moronic and un realistic drug laws, start wars with no defensible reason or plan, encourage and defend oppressive corporate policy, and when caught just pull a P.T. Barnum and toss out a few lies and slogans.

Stupidity and apathy are our trademarks, and political partisanship is our refuge. Partisan politics is the other side of this nasty little coin. Great examples of sheep herding are radio host Mike Gallager and shrew about town Ann Coulter (yes, there are smear artists on the left as well, but I hate these two the most). If you listen to these people carefully, you will come away with the unmistakable feeling that Liberals are not only the CAUSE of every one of our problems, but also are incapable of and never have had a single good idea about ANYTHING! That's BS of course, but it sure plays well to their particular audience. The other side of the coin is that Conservatives are the cause of...etc.

The bottom line is that we have made our bed of expediency and now have to lie in it. TPTB merely take as much as we GIVE them and frankly, I don't have a clue as to how to fix this. Actually, I'm very glad I don't have the answers, as in this country anyone who KNOWS how to fix things will live a live of impotent frustration.

[ nothing like a rant to start up a Saturday morning. I think I'll go out and yell at the kids playing in the street now.]

(edited for idiotic typos)

[Sonart]

One can only hope that this Administration has had their fill of militant nation-building. That, and they won't be around after January 1st, 2005 to break anything else.

The administration will be around, God willing, and they wont be breaking anything except pounding holes into your paranoid delusions.

I hope the US DOES liberate other countries in the ME or Africa.

[dotcoma]

"Liberate"....

Yes. Liberate. Iraq and Afghanistan have been Liberated.

[dotcoma]

That's pretty funny. You should come up with a better way to deliver the punchline though.

Right.

[dotcoma]

I'm gonna forward this thread to all the woman living under the "freedom" of the Northern Alliance. I'm sure they'll think it's as funny as I did.

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by dave654, Yes. Liberate. Iraq and Afghanistan have been Liberated.

O peration
I raqi
L iberation?

US Constitution does not allow for US forces to act as world policemen. US military is authorized to act in the defense of the USA.

dave654, what countries should the US "liberate," IYO?

[alex]

US Constitution does not allow for US forces to act as world policemen. US military is authorized to act in the defense of the USA.

The Constitution doesn't allow for Foodstamps. Or Medicare. Or the National Reserve. Or FEMA.

There are many things which the Constitution does not address. It wasn't intended to be the rule by which all future actions of this country are to be planned and judged upon. That's narrow minded, and I bet in this case, completely subject to your trying to make a statement.

We act as "global policement" because we are Americans. Because we fight for a way of living, and against tyrrany. It is who we are, and what we do. There will always be naysayers. That's part of being in a democracy. What you don't understand is the reason we are here talking is somebody braver than you and I went to bat for us and died. To protect the very same way of living that we both enjoy.

It's very easy to be a spoiled child when you're in America. Try that in Iraq. Try that in Bosnia during Ethnic Cleansing. Try that under the Khmer Rouge. Or Stalin. Or Hitler.

We fight tyrrany. We are generous benefactors when we can possibly do so.

Sometimes people die.

Alex

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by alex,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (alex,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>There are many things which the Constitution does not address. It wasn't intended to be the rule by which all future actions of this country are to be planned and judged upon. That's narrow minded, and I bet in this case, completely subject to your trying to make a statement...[/b]

No, the US Constitution legitimizes the Federal Government. It was intended to be the rule for all future actions. Provisions were made for its amendment if it proved inadequate. To take actions not addressed in the Constitution violates the spirit of that document intended to limit government power.

Do you support all actions by the US Gov? If not, what is the basis of your disagreement? Mine is that, if the Constitution doesn't apply in every circumstance of government power, then the legitimacy of Fed power is not established. So then Federal authority to tax must be delegitimized also. The whole system breaks down and the only reason citizens financially support the government is fear. Fear of losing what they own or their freedom to live their lives. This is known as a "protection racket." Operated most notably by organized crime, and not the legitimate basis for government. When given the choice between individual rights and government power, I nearly always come down on the side of rights. I believe the founders were also distrustful of government power.
http://www.sobran.com/tyranny.shtml

If Washington and Jefferson, Madison, and Hamilton could come back, the first thing they’d notice would be that the federal government now routinely assumes thousands of powers never assigned to it — powers never granted, never delegated, never enumerated. These were the words they used, and it’s a good idea for us to learn their language.

Originally posted by alex,@ We act as "global policement" because we are Americans. Because we fight for a way of living, and against tyrrany. It is who we are, and what we do. There will always be naysayers. That's part of being in a democracy. What you don't understand is the reason we are here talking is somebody braver than you and I went to bat for us and died. To protect the very same way of living that we both enjoy...

What is this argument? This is opinion and unlike your previous, well-founded reasoning in other posts. http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...ranny&x=16&y=17 Tyranny=

oppressive power; especially : oppressive power exerted by government <the tyranny of a police state>

<!--QuoteBegin-alex,
We fight tyrrany. We are generous benefactors when we can possibly do so.[/quote]We meaning the US? You are aware of the hypocrisy of your statement, I hope. The US Gov is a source of tyranny: it is big government usurping powers not granted to it in a balanced system designed by masterful founders. The system is now seriously out of balance. Rebalancing is the citizen's task in a representative government. That is "fighting tyranny!"

Originally posted by alex, The Constitution doesn't allow for Foodstamps. Or Medicare. Or the National Reserve. Or FEMA. There are many things which the Constitution does not address. It wasn't intended to be the rule by which all future actions of this country are to be planned and judged upon. That's narrow minded, and I bet in this case, completely subject to your trying to make a statement. We act as "global policement" because we are Americans. Because we fight for a way of living, and against tyrrany. It is who we are, and what we do. There will always be naysayers. That's part of being in a democracy. What you don't understand is the reason we are here talking is somebody braver than you and I went to bat for us and died. To protect the very same way of living that we both enjoy. It's very easy to be a spoiled child when you're in America. Try that in Iraq. Try that in Bosnia during Ethnic Cleansing. Try that under the Khmer Rouge. Or Stalin. Or Hitler. We fight tyrrany. We are generous benefactors when we can possibly do so. Sometimes people die. Alex

Here here!! A man with a clue!

[dotcoma]

Originally posted by alex, The Constitution doesn't allow for Foodstamps. Or Medicare. Or the National Reserve. Or FEMA. There are many things which the Constitution does not address. It wasn't intended to be the rule by which all future actions of this country are to be planned and judged upon. That's narrow minded, and I bet in this case, completely subject to your trying to make a statement. We act as "global policement" because we are Americans. Because we fight for a way of living, and against tyrrany. It is who we are, and what we do. There will always be naysayers. That's part of being in a democracy. What you don't understand is the reason we are here talking is somebody braver than you and I went to bat for us and died. To protect the very same way of living that we both enjoy. It's very easy to be a spoiled child when you're in America. Try that in Iraq. Try that in Bosnia during Ethnic Cleansing. Try that under the Khmer Rouge. Or Stalin. Or Hitler. We fight tyrrany. We are generous benefactors when we can possibly do so. Sometimes people die. Alex

ALex, I'm sorry. I held back for a while there. Not sure how I did it. But this is crap. You have zero concept of history and need to burn your Rockefeller text books. You are spitting up cliches to such an extent that I don't even know how to address them...

The Constitution doesn't allow for Foodstamps. Or Medicare. Or the National Reserve. Or FEMA.

That's a good point. Sadly, I don't think you meant to make it.

We fight tyrrany. We are generous benefactors when we can possibly do so

What?

We act as "global policement" because we are Americans

What?

It wasn't intended to be the rule by which all future actions of this country are to be planned and judged upon. That's narrow minded, and I bet in this case, completely subject to your trying to make a statement.

Yes it was. And how is it narrow minded and why? And I'm sorry, what exactly are you asking here?

Because we fight for a way of living, and against tyrrany. It is who we are, and what we do

Are you quoting a Vin Diesal movie?

That's part of being in a democracy

Give us your definition of democracy. We are democratic. But we are NOT a democracy.

What you don't understand is the reason we are here talking is somebody braver than you and I went to bat for us and died.

Enough....please.

It's very easy to be a spoiled child when you're in America. Try that in Iraq. Try that in Bosnia during Ethnic Cleansing. Try that under the Khmer Rouge. Or Stalin. Or Hitler.

Are you calling us spoiled? Which ones of us and why? You don't know shit about anyone here. Stop quoting movies.

[alex]

No, the US Constitution legitimizes the Federal Government. It was intended to be the rule for all future actions. Provisions were made for its amendment if it proved inadequate. To take actions not addressed in the Constitution violates the spirit of that document intended to limit government power.

That's inane. No 200+ year old document on the planet is relevant anymore.

We meaning the US? You are aware of the hypocrisy of your statement, I hope. The US Gov is a source of tyranny: it is big government usurping powers not granted to it in a balanced system designed by masterful founders. The system is now seriously out of balance. Rebalancing is the citizen's task in a representative government. That is "fighting tyranny!"

I don't feel that the government is tyrannical at all. I have my concerns -- gun control and drug enforcement -- but I fight back with my vote and my voice. I am fully aware that we as Americans have it pretty good.

Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Karadzic -- those are your tyrants. The fact that you or I have to pay income tax is really not anything like tyrrany.

Alex

[dotcoma]

That's inane. No 200+ year old document on the planet is relevant anymore.

My guess is you've never read it.

I don't feel that the government is tyrannical at all

That's because you lead a cushy, clueless life.

I have my concerns -- gun control and drug enforcement

What is your concern?

Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Karadzic

All products of the US and British governments.

[alex]

ALex, I'm sorry. I held back for a while there. Not sure how I did it. But this is crap. You have zero concept of history and need to burn your Rockefeller text books. You are spitting up cliches to such an extent that I don't even know how to address them...

Don't do me any favors, bub.

The Constitution doesn't allow for Foodstamps. Or Medicare. Or the National Reserve. Or FEMA. That's a good point. Sadly, I don't think you meant to make it.

One man's point is another man's... point. I fail to see how this is a convincing argument in either direction.

Are you quoting a Vin Diesal movie?

No. And shame on you for saying I don't know my history. I was quoting (well, paraphrasing, but whatever) somebody you may actually have heard of.

Under one such marker lies a young man—Martin Treptow—who left his job in a small town barber shop in 1917 to go to France with the famed Rainbow Division. There, on the western front, he was killed trying to carry a message between battalions under heavy artillery fire. We are told that on his body was found a diary. On the flyleaf under the heading, "My Pledge," he had written these words: "America must win this war. Therefore, I will work, I will save, I will sacrifice, I will endure, I will fight cheerfully and do my utmost, as if the issue of the whole struggle depended on me alone." The crisis we are facing today does not require of us the kind of sacrifice that Martin Treptow and so many thousands of others were called upon to make. It does require, however, our best effort, and our willingness to believe in ourselves and to believe in our capacity to perform great deeds; to believe that together, with God's help, we can and will resolve the problems which now confront us. And, after all, why shouldn't we believe that? We are Americans. God bless you, and thank you.

Can you guess who?

Are you calling us spoiled? Which ones of us and why? You don't know shit about anyone here. Stop quoting movies.

Yes, I am. I don't need to name names. Just look for the loudest whiniest among you, and you'll know exactly who I'm talking about. The people that would disassemble this country and reform it in their image to reflect their cowardice and spite for the working upper class.


Alex

[alex]

Originally posted by roxdog, My guess is you've never read it.

You'd be wrong.

That's because you lead a cushy, clueless life.

Ad hominem.

All products of the US and British governments.

prove it.

Alex

[dotcoma]

You've proven yourself worthless. Have fun in volconvo. Clueless. Absolutely cluseless. Why don't you post some Reagan quotes.