Paul Johnson Decapitated by Al-Quaeda

[sixmillman]

How do you define "condolence" in this instance? I think it's safe to say no one here is celebrating Johnson's murder, but this act is part of a bigger picture and as such can be discussed

Yea there is a bigger picture. And plenty of threads to use fo a political disscussion. How would you feel if someone from Mr. Johnson's family stumbled onto this thread?

That's your opinion, which I don't share in this case. Also, if certain events influenced by our policy ARE wrong, and result in loss of life (including military personnel, who were NOT in a dangerous area voluntarily), then what is wrong with holding the originators of this policy up to criticizm?

A few quoted from your enlightened political discourse on Abu Garib

You better watch out what you say, Osborn. Dubya can torture anybody he wants. And that might be you if you don't keep quiet. You could be labeled and then disappear into the torture chamber:

or

Fuck George Bush, and his system, and all of his "henchmen" to use his words. I still own SEVERAL guns, I still know how to use them, and most importantly, I still know my rights, which no president will ever take from me, while I am breathing.

Where are you going with this? Your statement above implies that criticizm of our leadership's actions in the Middle East are somehow injurious to the man's family. Also, I am reading the implied charge that these posts are somehow critical of Johnson himself, which I didn't see. And I wonder how Johnson's family and friends are viewing this murder itself, and if THEY may be a bit critical of our actions.

I was going no where with this. I can't even see how I was implieing something critical of Mr. Johnson. And I doubt very much that the people who loved and knew Mr. Johnson are thinking about the vast foriegn policy actions that ultimately led to his death. Especially since he had lived there for over ten years. But perhaps that is my point. I don't know that or assume that.

Wasn't the deaths of 3,000 people used to advance OUR cause?

I guess that depends what you think is "OUR" cause.

How do you know no one here hasn't considered this?

Because not one poster said it or expressed it untill challenged on their humanity.

We all know the Name Paul Johnson now. Can anybody give me a name of an Iraqi in Abu-Gharib?

[dotcoma]

The hopelessly myopic view that Osborne F Enready shares with Roxdog and a handful of others personifies their hypocritic mindset. They only see one evil, and if they can displace the label of evil on America, the better they like it. Yes, yes yes, everything that has been done and ever will be done by all is George Bush's fault, what a shame to see things with such leftist tunnel vision.

This is one pathetic assessment and you obviously don't listen. For the millionth time. WHAT MAKES ME A LIBERAL? Please explain.

[dotcoma]

Conflicting news on Saudi terrorist death


RIYADH, Saudi Arabia, June 19 (UPI) -- Al-Qaida network, which beheaded a U.S. hostage, denied Saturday its main operative in Saudi Arabia, Abdel Aziz al-Muqrin, was killed by Saudi police.

But Saudi officials said four al-Qaida terrorists, including al-Muqrin, were killed by police officers during a raid in Riyadh Friday night, hours the militants cut the head of Paul Johnson Jr. from his body.

Saudi Television broadcast pictures of four bodies Saturday which it said belonged to al-Muqrin and three other al-Qaida terrorists.

The officials said a Saudi policeman was also killed in the operation.

A statement by al-Qaida published on a Muslim Internet site said "news carried by satellite televisions and news agencies about the killing of Abdel Aziz al-Muqrin are pure lies.

"We want to indicate that such claims made by the Saudi tyrants (government officials) aim at undermining the morale of the mujahideen (Muslim warriors) in the Arab peninsula," the statement added.

Johnson, 49, was beheaded after his kidnappers said Saudi officials failed to fulfill their demands to free jailed al-Qaida members and order Westerners to leave the nation.

The Lockheed Martin Corp. employee was kidnapped Saturday in Riyadh. He helped maintain U.S.-built Apache helicopters for the Saudi military.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by sixmillman, Yea there is a bigger picture. And plenty of threads to use fo a political disscussion. How would you feel if someone from Mr. Johnson's family stumbled onto this thread?

They might agree with much of it. Niether of us knows for sure. I can't speak for you, but I don't tailor my opinions to suit anyone who may or may not read anything on this forum.

A few quoted from your enlightened political discourse on Abu Garib

I'm assuming you didn't mean MY posts, as these were not mine.

I was going no where with this. I can't even see how I was implieing something critical of Mr. Johnson. And I doubt very much that the people who loved and knew Mr. Johnson are thinking about the vast foriegn policy actions that ultimately led to his death. Especially since he had lived there for over ten years. But perhaps that is my point. I don't know that or assume that.

No, YOU weren't implying any lack of respect for Johnson on your part. You implied the OTHER posts were somehow disrespectful.

Because not one poster said it or expressed it untill challenged on their humanity.

I accept it as a given that we all are sorry for the death of an innocent fellow American. It doesn't need to be said every time just to suit those who grasp at straws to bolster their personal dislike for any opposing political view and/or poster of same.

We all know the Name Paul Johnson now. Can anybody give me a name of an Iraqi in Abu-Gharib?

Do you have a problem with Americans being a BIT more concerned about the fate of other Americans over that of Iraqis? Also, and don't go googling for names, how many Iraqis involved in that prison scandal could YOU name a week before this happened? I can't, but my priorities are a little skewed in that respect.

[sixmillman]

Scribbler in an effort to refute what I said did you jump to some kind of concluesions about me.
Like you I cannot name a single Iraqi prisoners name and I doubt a google search will even find one. I don't remember ever seeing one.
And I think we aggree that before we can start expressing true grief and compassion for the Iraqis instead of just using their grief and misfortune to further "OUR" cause we might want to know who they are as individuals instead of nameless faces to be labeled "terroists" by one side and "innocents" by the other.
I fully understand that my concern for Paul Johnson supercedes my compassion for a faceless Iraqi. I used to go fishing out of Little Egg Harbor out to Barnaget. He could have been my neighbor, he was like me, and he is dead now because he was like me an American.
My point is that members of this forum can quickly fill pages with their condemnation of America's policies and hypocriticaly say it is for their "humanitarian" concern for the "poor innocent Iraquis" and what they are really doing is just using the misfortune of others to advance their "cause". There is nothing "humanitarian" about it

[dotcoma]

Especially considering the RED CROSS has issued a report citing that over 90% of Iraqi Prisoners are being held for....BEING MEN. As in, THEY'VE DONE NOTHING. Nothing. Imprisoned and tortured (some to death) for nothing. Freedom? Or maybe we should all shut up and just listen to Oliver North compare this "war" to WWII over and over again.

[dannyp]

uh, sixmillion, you keep saying that no one cares about the man. thats not true, every one who has posted has seemed to be remorseful of the death. but this to me, just simply shows the outrage of the reasoning. "Why the fuck did this man have to die?" -- well if we weren't at war he wouldn't. but we are, so we gotta deal with it.

you really ignored my post if you keep replying with remarks like 'you guys are unsentimental assholes'

please take the time to read my post that i replied with earlier, i think you were posting in response to the person above me and didn't reply to me.

Originally posted by dannyp,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (dannyp,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-sixmillman, You have people who actually hate america more than al-quaeda on this board. An American is brutaly murdered, beheaded, and his headless body broadcast on the internet and the SECOND POST BLAMES BUSH.

first, the guy who replied doesn't hate america. i do agree that a lot seems un-american about what our country is doing. forcing democracy to bring a so-called "civilized order" to their country [how can you force democracy?]. in fact, it's not even their country, we're in iraq. it doesn't have much to do directly with 9/11. it is the fault of bush, but not alone. he is 'reacting' to the threat of al quida.

i just wanted to point out how stupid your view is: "An American is brutaly murdered, beheaded, and his headless body broadcast on the internet and the SECOND POST BLAMES BUSH."

thats the only thing you see when you read this stuff. you don't even pay attention to the reasoning.

alright they killed an american, and i'm sad about that. but we're at war, they are fucking terrorists, and they were reacting to the death of one of their senior al quida members.

would you like me to cry for mr. johnson?[/b][/quote]

[sixmillman]

What can I say? Boy, America and Americans are sure safer now that we had this war, that was over more than a year ago. Thanks Bush.

That was the second post. I'm sorry I missed the reasoning that you seem to have found.

thats the only thing you see when you read this stuff. you don't even pay attention to the reasoning.

alright they killed an american, and i'm sad about that. but we're at war, they are fucking terrorists, and they were reacting to the death of one of their senior al quida members.

Oh I see it's just tit for tat, no problem, sorry for the misunderstanding.

would you like me to cry for mr. johnson?

I don't expect you to do anything

[dannyp]

so now you're ignoring that everyone is actually remorseful about him dying.

[Zeebadee]

Hey, Johnson had a good life. He was evidently doing what he wanted, where he wanted. He must have been very well aware of the dangers and risks, and he chose to accept them. I'm sorry he's dead, but he alone made the choice to be there. It's like playing with snakes, don't blame the snake when you get bit.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by sixmillman, Scribbler in an effort to refute what I said did you jump to some kind of concluesions about me.

I don't think I did. I was pointing out how I read your post, your actual point may have been misinterpreted. It appeared to me that you were angry because you saw no outward expression of anger about Johnson's murder as if his death meant nothing. I think it was you who jumped to conclusions as I'd bet a week's pay that almost everyone here was saddened by the murder, but focus more on things like our foreign policy which is arguably at least partly responsible for the killing happening in the first place. I feel keeping silent about this shows less concern for the man's killing than sitting here wringing my hands with remorse.
Which bring up my second point, and it's not specifically aimed at you. I bothers me greatly to hear people on this forum declaring anyone who criticizes our actions (or the results thereof) or leaders as being unamerican. I strongly believe that if you see something wrong in how this nation is run and DON'T stand up and complain, it is more UNamerican than "going with the flow" by a hundredfold. I believe with all my heart in the validity of the quote which appears at the bottom of every post I submit.

And I think we aggree that before we can start expressing true grief and compassion for the Iraqis instead of just using their grief and misfortune to further "OUR" cause we might want to know who they are as individuals instead of nameless faces to be labeled "terroists" by one side and "innocents" by the other.

Sorry, I don't agree. First, I should have put the word "OUR" in quotes as you did, as I meant what we are TOLD our "cause" is, and I still have a problem with Iraq being such an immediate threat to us. Also, I may be a little TOO cynical, but I honestly don't want to know the names of the dead Iraqis. I don't want ANYONE to die, but my concern for them doesn't extend past that. In my idea of a perfect world, we would mind our own business and the Arabs/terrorists would keep away from us and return to the good old days of slaughtering each other and leave us out of it.

My point is that members of this forum can quickly fill pages with their condemnation of America's policies and hypocriticaly say it is for their "humanitarian" concern for the "poor innocent Iraquis" and what they are really doing is just using the misfortune of others to advance their "cause". There is nothing "humanitarian" about it

I won't analyse the motives of others, but I agree to the point that I don't give a damn about them, outside of my concern as to WHO is killing them. Sorry, but I guess I make a poor global citizen!

[dotcoma]

Sorry, but I guess I make a poor global citizen!

It's ok. This will all make sense once we're all in private prisons.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by roxdog, It's ok. This will all make sense once we're all in private prisons.

No problem. They DO have modems in prisons, don't they?




(edit for still MORE lousy typos)

[Mia]

Originally posted by bishop, the saudis don't mourn anyone's death. they're like the muslim satan wrapping its arms around mecca.

Where do you get that? They go after Al-Quida like we do. I believe they already executed two of the people involved in this. I know they did execute the people who shot up some Americans and Saudis a while back.

?????

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Mia,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mia,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-bishop, the saudis don't mourn anyone's death.  they're like the muslim satan wrapping its arms around mecca.

Where do you get that? They go after Al-Quida like we do. I believe they already executed two of the people involved in this. I know they did execute the people who shot up some Americans and Saudis a while back.

?????[/b][/quote]

That could be construed as either maintaining their authority or just plain revenge. Unlike us, execution is no big deal to them. I don't agree with the Muslim Satan part, but we can't avoid using ourselves as a reference and we don't go in for death as a rule. The history of that part of the world would indicate otherwise.

Although I don't know which is the healthier attitude towards death, ours or theirs.

[dotcoma]

Unlike us, execution is no big deal to them

It's never been a problem for George and Jeb.

Oh yes, George and Jeb are personally beheading prisoners, stabbing them in the eye, burning them alive and dragging their charred carcus through the streets. :rolleyes:

Sixmillman, it doesn't pay to expect the anti administration fanatics to speak reasonably. They travel down a one way street.

[bishop]

pot.kettle.black.

[Osborn F Enready]

Bishop.... now that is TRUE.

Hollow insuts, Osborne? POT KETTLE BLACK yourself.