UN to Caterpiller, sell to Isreal a HR violation.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Bulldozed by the U.N.

The United Nations is warning Illinois heavy equipment manufacturer Caterpillar that selling its product to Israel could constitute a human rights violation. In a letter to the company, Jean Ziegler, the U.N.'s special expert on the right to food, writes that Israel's use of Caterpillar bulldozers to raze homes in Palestinian territories -- "might involve complicity or acceptance on the part of your company to actual and potential violations of human rights."

The warning is the first issued under a new U.N. resolution that extends responsibility for protecting rights to -- "non-state actors."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,122934,00.html

Okay, this is another example of why America, and all sane humans should reject the UN, and fight to disband the useless and corrupt organization. Man I hope Caterpiller tells the UN to go bugger off.

[tusaki]

I think you are just blinded because the company involved is American and it has to do with condemning Isreal.

What if the UN told a semtex producer in russia that it might be used by palestinian terrorists to blow themselves up?

In this increasingly non-state world (companies), it is a good thing the UN can tell people what their products are used for. Then it is up to the concience of the companies involved.

[Comrade]

Blinded? Tusaki...

It would be a human rights violation to sell Israel CONSTRUCTION EQUIPMENT because they happen to be Israel's choice for home destruction? Then you compare it to an explosives producer in Russia, and think this is a level analogy, though it makes as much sense.
Might be used by Palestinian terrorists? Yes, exactly the same way that the Caterpillar equipment might be used for home destruction, just as it might be used for any of the other dozens of things you do with construction equipment.
I suppose this would be a good thing for anyone against Israel, because pictures of Israelis bulldozing homes with tanks looks worse than doing it with construction equipment...
As for the UN telling people what their products are used for, they seem to be very selective. Israel isn't giving in to our version of the peace process (largely because it's absurd) so we are going to be brats.

[tusaki]

Actually, it was done not by the UN exactly.

"This is an independent expert of the commission, acting in his personal capacity," said Jose Diaz, a spokesman for the high commissioner.

Yaakov Levy, the Israeli ambassador to U.N. offices in Geneva, said Ziegler overstepped his mandate by going to "parties outside of the U.N. system."

"Ziegler, appointed by the U.N. Human Rights Commission, and other so-called "special rapporteurs" are assigned by the commission to look for abuses. Each is appointed to concentrate on a specific country or right. They are unsalaried, but their expenses are paid."

"The Israelis are "using armored bulldozers supplied by your company to destroy agricultural farms, greenhouses, ancient olive groves and agricultural fields planted with crops," Ziegler's May 28 letter said"

"In the letter, Ziegler said, "Allowing the delivery of your D-9 and D-10 Caterpillar bulldozers to the Israeli army through the government of the United States in the certain knowledge that they are being used for such actions might involve complicity or acceptance on the part of your company to actual and potential violations of human rights, including the right to food."

Comrad, you assertion that it has anything to do with "giving in to our version of the peace process" is absurd.

[Comrade]

Yeah, really absurd, despite the fact that it has defined both EU and UN politics in the Middle East, included with antagonization of America for not pressuring Israel to accept this plan. :rolleyes:

[tusaki]

Where, in this plan: http://www.un.org/media/main/roadmap122002.html do you find "antagonization of America for not pressuring Isreal". And where do you find "defined both EU and UN politics"?

[Kyran]

Wait. What if our trees end up putting oxygen into the atmosphere that fuel the lungs of an Israeli sniper...who in turn kills an innocent Palestinian bystander?

Tusaki, nobody cares what nationality the company is. This is like when the libs over here try to shut down gun manufacturers just because somebody murders someone with one of their products. The entire concept is devoid of individual responsibility.

The UN is not just suggesting to Caterpillar that the Israelis might bulldoze a few homes that don't belong to them. The UN is threatening them with a "Human Rights Violation." This is 100% spin; the UN is trying to violate Caterpillar's rights. Caterpillar is licensed by the United States of America to sell it's products, and possesses all the required legal documents to market their goods overseas.

We should consider this an act of war. The UN has used it's organizational status as that of a government; one that is attempting to act as though it has soverignty over the United States. If Canada, Mexico, or any other nation in the world had threatened our civilians, then our government would respond appropriately.

[tusaki]

What part of "advising" and "personal letter" is hard to understand?

"This is an independent expert of the commission, acting in his personal capacity," said Jose Diaz, a spokesman for the high commissioner."

Where do you find "The UN is threatening them with a "Human Rights Violation.""?

[Comrade]

Because it is an American company.
So, in a way, you are entirely correct in saying that the reason I have problems with this activity is because the company is American, because that is the same reason the UN has problems with it.
Tusaki, the behavior of the UN speaks for itself.

[castille]

We should stop selling Israel bricks. Israeli and Arab children kill people with bricks and stones. In fact, end the evil brick exportation!

[tusaki]

The behavior of the UN is trying to stop wars from happening. The entire REASON for the UN is that no one country can dictate what is right and what is wrong.

[Kyran]

Originally posted by tusaki,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tusaki,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What part of "advising" and "personal letter" is hard to understand? "This is an independent expert of the commission, acting in his personal capacity," said Jose Diaz, a spokesman for the high commissioner." Where do you find "The UN is threatening them with a "Human Rights Violation.""?[/b]

Don't play dumb. I am responding to the topic as-if it is actually occurring as presented. Your point about some individual acting of their own accord to inform Caterpillar was made after I had begun typing my own response. I didn't see it.

Regardless, if the UN gave an American company a fine, violation, order, or any other Executive Action then it would be trespassing on our soverignty. Do you or do you not see that an as act of war?

<!--QuoteBegin-tusaki,
The behavior of the UN is trying to stop wars from happening. The entire REASON for the UN is that no one country can dictate what is right and what is wrong.[/quote]

I hate to break it to ya. But wars are a part of human nature. The only way people will ever stop fighting is if they all think alike.

[Comrade]

Originally posted by tusaki, The behavior of the UN is trying to stop wars from happening. The entire REASON for the UN is that no one country can dictate what is right and what is wrong.

All wars are bad? We fought in WW1, 2, Korea, VietNam, those were bad wars fought to ruin the world, rather than make it better? But that is if you are refering to Iraq, I don't think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict deserves the term war, because that implies a great deal. It IS a conflict, of course.

The UN's behavior hasn't done a whole lot of good at all, because the UN has no power of enforcement with Israel, while America does. So the UN's behavior has been to try and get America to make Israel make concessions, and America has refused because it disagrees with the plan the UN has come up with. And as for including the EU in that, almost all of the prominant members of the UN is also a member of the EU, which, just to me, looks more and more like an extension of France than a united states of europe. I did caricature the behavior of the UN as badgering, but when I see articles like this...

[tusaki]

Originally posted by Kyran,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Kyran,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Don't play dumb. I am responding to the topic as-if it is actually occurring as presented. Your point about some individual acting of their own accord to inform Caterpillar was made after I had begun typing my own response. I didn't see it.[/b]

I cannot know you didn't see that.

Originally posted by Kyran+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Kyran)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Regardless, if the UN gave an American company a fine, violation, order, or any other Executive Action then it would be trespassing on our soverignty. Do you or do you not see that an as act of war?[/b]

The sovereignty of states is embedded in the primary articles of the UN. This will never happen.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kyran@

<!--QuoteBegin-tusaki,
The behavior of the UN is trying to stop wars from happening. The entire REASON for the UN is that no one country can dictate what is right and what is wrong.[/quote]

I hate to break it to ya. But wars are a part of human nature. The only way people will ever stop fighting is if they all think alike.[/quote] Most wars are preventable. Diplomacy has averted countless senseless wars.

[Comrade]

"Most wars are preventable."

This sentence really means nothing. Which wars are you refering to? Iraq?

Another thing, just my personal opinion, not very PC, but sometimes preventing wars is WRONG. Isolationists keeping us from recapturing France, is the one most people are going to be familiar with, would be immoral.
The World War, part 1 and 2, both provide us with so many lessons, I swear.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Tusaki.

You are the blind tool, not Me, not those that see the ignorance here.

The UN is trying to scare Caterpillar into not selling Isreal products why?

Are you suggesting that ANY company that sells a product that is later used to cause "human rights violations" should fear now? Or just those that sell to Isreal?

Better, will the UN hold the Nail and ball baring companys on the threat of Human Rights Violations, for selling to the palastinians? After all, Nails and ball bareings are favored as suicide bombber enhancements.

[tusaki]

Originally posted by Comrade,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Comrade,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"Most wars are preventable." This sentence really means nothing. Which wars are you refering to? Iraq? [/b]

No, not iraq, I was just referring to the general idea that wars are usually preventable and prevented through diplomacy.

<!--QuoteBegin-Comrade

Another thing, just my personal opinion, not very PC, but sometimes preventing wars is WRONG. Isolationists keeping us from recapturing France, is the one most people are going to be familiar with, would be immoral.
The World War, part 1 and 2, both provide us with so many lessons, I swear.[/quote]

Yes, the most important which is this:

"to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind"

"to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours"

"to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security"

"to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest"

So war is good, to liberate a people from the oppressors, but should only be used as a FINAL tool to solve a problem.

[Comrade]

Which, strangely enough, is what I keep saying we are trying to get Arab nations to understand.

The problem with saying it should only be used as a final resort is that there are very very many people who would never want to admit that it has come to the final tool.

They would want more negotiations, or "more inspections," which just allows the situation to get worse.

I read a very good essay at USS Clueless about how war should be waged when the benefits outweigh the detriments, such as the deaths (from both sides) and all the stuff that goes into account. Not just for the "aggressive" side. Very good essay.

I'll find it and link it.

[Gorgo]

This is a tough one because Israel is buying these machines for one thing only, ethnic cleansing. Is that Caterpillar's fault if they know that?

[Comrade]

Originally posted by Gorgo, This is a tough one because Israel is buying these machines for one thing only, ethnic cleansing. Is that Caterpillar's fault if they know that?

Oh jeez. So Israel is only buying construction equipment to, in effect, "gas minorities." You know, it has been a long time since I heard about a mass murder by construction equipment coming out of Israel, but I'm sure thats just Crime Lord Bush covering it up, huh?