UN to Caterpiller, sell to Isreal a HR violation.

[giuliano]

1. caterpillar are reportedly supplying armored bulldozers to israel. these are not being used for civilian construction projects.

2. caterpillar could easily make it a condition of sale that the bulldozers are not used for committing human rights violations.

it is clear caterpillar are well aware of what their products are being used for, and are happy to contribute to human rights violations. this makes them undeniably guilty in the moral sense, and as far as i can tell, legally guilty as well.

for the genius who suggested a private company isn't responsible for what their products are used for, i take it you have no objection to selling nuclear reactors to iran for "civilian power"?

[Mr.Vicchio]

See its the Anti-jew hitler was right should have finished the job but since he is gone lets support the palastinians group that thinks the UN is correct and that Isreal is some sort fo evil place.

I swear I have never seen more anti-jewish sentiment outside of a skin head forum.

Heil Hitler guys, come on, you know you want too.

[giuliano]

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, I swear I have never seen more anti-jewish sentiment outside of a skin head forum.

selling armoured bulldozers for the purpose of demolishing civilian homes is morally repulsive, it's got nothing to do with anti-semitism.

[Gorgo]

They're not murdering people with the bulldozers, but they are tearing down people's homes, which is part of the total plan to end Palestinian culture, if not Palestinians altogether.

Originally posted by Comrade, Oh jeez. So Israel is only buying construction equipment to, in effect, "gas minorities." You know, it has been a long time since I heard about a mass murder by construction equipment coming out of Israel, but I'm sure thats just Crime Lord Bush covering it up, huh?

[tusaki]

Mr. Viccio,

It was a letter on the authority of Jean Ziegler himself. The sovereignty of nations is embedded in the UN charter, so they never can tell private companies what to do. As a matter of fact, I cannot find the resolution which is talked about. I've got a hunch it's either the resolution which extended the posibilities of the UN to deal with non-state actors like al-quada, or the one where the UN can act to deal with companies which use child-labor. In which case it is either misleading by the newspaper or abused by Jean Ziegler.

Btw: http://www.congress.org/congressorg/bio/us...ter_id=83018096
"Caterpillar, the industry leader in heavy equipment manufacturing, has put its brand name at risk by becoming the industry leader in transforming construction equipment into military equipment. According to Caterpillar Chairman Jim Owens, in a letter sent to Jewish Voice for Peace on August 22, 2003, Caterpillar bulldozers are sold to Israel through the US Foreign Military Sales Program. In other words, Caterpillar bulldozers are not given to Israel as construction equipment but explicitly as weapons."

[Comrade]

Originally posted by CompuSerb, Jurisdiction of UN must be preserved and strickly enforced, for that is the only way that aggression based on lies against a sovereign country like in the case of Iraq can be prevented.

lol

So explain this war of aggression against a sovereign country to me.
Sovereign country-- Saddam?
Based on lies-- You are referring to WMDs. Firstly, you are assuming Bush didn't know his information was false. Secondly, you are assuming that it was the only reason we went to war.
War of Aggression-- Yeah, we really colonized that country, putting in a democratic government and all. It was for the oil, too. All that oil that has yet to reach the pumps and lower gas prices.

Your arguement wasn't oft-repeated rhetoric or anything.

By the way, the UN isn't a world government. Jurisdiction?

Gorgo, I have yet to see genocide on the part of the Israelis. But maybe their wall is just part of a giant building they're going to make, so that the gas doesn't escape from the Palestinian section.

[tusaki]

Btw Mr Viccio: how come it's immediately anti-jew/heil hitler with you? I cannot even say the name 'israel' without you blurting out these obcenities and accusing people of being nazi's. Djeez. Instead of 'either' is right or wrong, as it seems to be the way you are thinking about it, you can also look at the whole situation and give blame or credit where it is due.

[tusaki]

Originally posted by Comrade+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Comrade)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Sovereign country-- Saddam?[/b]

Not to justify saddam, but -any- country is sovereign. Including ruthless brutal dictatorships.

Originally posted by Comrade+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Comrade)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Based on lies-- You are referring to WMDs. Firstly, you are assuming Bush didn't know his information was false. Secondly, you are assuming that it was the only reason we went to war. War of Aggression-- Yeah, we really colonized that country, putting in a democratic government and all. It was for the oil, too. All that oil that has yet to reach the pumps and lower gas prices.[/b]

When is a lie a lie? is it ok if he didn't know? should he have known?

<!--QuoteBegin-Comrade@
By the way, the UN isn't a world government. Jurisdiction?[/quote] No, but after world war 2 we decided we should try and talk about issues of security.

<!--QuoteBegin-Comrade
Gorgo, I have yet to see genocide on the part of the Israelis. But maybe their wall is just part of a giant building they're going to make, so that the gas doesn't escape from the Palestinian section.[/quote]
Same old, same old, both parties are commiting atrocities fueled by blind hatred and fundamentalism. Genocide is a big word to use.

[giuliano]

Originally posted by Comrade, It was for the oil, too. All that oil that has yet to reach the pumps and lower gas prices.

but it will, and that is the plan.

the fact that militant attacks on oil infrastructure have hindered this effort isn't really much of an argument against that theory. it was always going to take time.

[Comrade]

Oh well, oil only runs our country. I guess a win-win situation, oil for us, a liberal society, democracy, in the Middle East for the Iraqis, as well as the ability for us to put pressure through demonstration of Arabs as a success in a liberal environment to change other Arab nations around it, therefore reducing the threat to us from Islamic extremism, is just unacceptable.
If only this war weren't beneficial, THEN we could justify it.


Tusaki--
If you say so, but assume they are. The moral problem with replacing vicious dictators is...?

As for Bush lying, I know what you mean, and its reasonable, but Bush Is A Raving Liar isn't.

After World War 2, we did decide to try and talk things out. And so far it has accomplished little. You can't deal with established democracies and despotic fundamentalists the same way, either. When was the last time Saddam kept his word?

[tusaki]

There is no moral problem replacing dictators, In fact, I think we should replace more dictators. Just pointing out the fact that sovereignty isn't just for democracies.

I agree, "Bush is a raving liar" is wrong to say. But he isn't the most honest man either.

"it accomplished little" <-- no, it accomplished quite a lot, but the media doesn't talk about things which have been prevented or things which have been improved. Somehow people aren't interested in that.

Saddam never kept his word and saddam should have been removed from power the moment he attacked kuwait. But still... going after him alone, without backing from the UN, did more harm to international relations than it could have. And the problem I have with this, is the idea of "hey, who needs them, we shall decide by ourselves what we should do and what is right and wrong". This is a very dangerous line of thinking, and usually wrong. Unfortunately, usually it needs to explode in someones face before they feel differently.

[tusaki]

Originally posted by CompuSerb The International Criminal Court gives the UN jurisdiction to prosecute the crimes of genocide such as Israel's on Palestinians and now the US' on Iraqis.

No, first of all, the americans never ratified the criminal court, in fact, they made many treaties with countries to prevent american soldiers from ever coming before the ICC.

Secondly, what the israelies are doing cannot be called genocide. Nor what the US is doing in iraq. That's absurd.

[Comrade]

The ICC is one of my pet peeves. America is denounced as a crook trying to escape punishment when in reality the ICC would violate the 4th through 8th amendments to the constitution..

CompuSerb, I think you missed the entire point of each of my arguements. I also like the Jewish conspiracy addition. Adds flavor.

[Gorgo]

The Genocide Convention:

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/p_genoci.htm

[sixmillman]

You just have to laugh. How many here that see a connection between Catapillar and Human rights violations swear they can't see a conection between Iraq and the war on terror?
The UN needs better glasses. The ones they have are tinted rose

[PatrickHenry]

CompuSerb: you are not using the quote function correctly. Please use the "Preview post function" to see how your post will look.

I agree with some of your views re:Israel; but your link of your sig to the rabid website kinda tips your hand, don't you think?

On the Caterpillar issue: Cat oughta tell the Zionists to use their own welders for the armor. Problem solved...

edit typo

[LogicaLunatic]

"Oh well, oil only runs our country. I guess a win-win situation, oil for us, a liberal society, democracy, in the Middle East for the Iraqis"

Even for the thousands of dead ones. Yes. Good.

As for Israel and Palestine... Kick religion the hell out of both of the countries and the problem is solved.

Just ranting... Ignore :)

[LogicaLunatic]

Thanks :) I called it ranting and suggested it be ignored simply because I didn't actually post an argument.

Thanks for the props anyway though :)

LL

[shrike]

The Israel destroys home not just because Israel like to do it but because of two reasons.
1. Home of suicide bomber-future suicide bomber will think twice before blowing him up if he knows that his family would leave without home.
2. From this home terrorist actions are executed (either shooting on IDF soldiers or weapon smuggling)

[Gorgo]

No good evidence of that at all.