High court denies prisoner's efforts to stay at Guantanamo

[rmnunez]

Many more than just 2 Muslim countries have much more serious problems with their detention and incarceration procedures. There are extensive, detailed, long-running and well-documented records of every sort of depravity inflicted upon captives held in detention in numerous Muslim jurisdictions. Just a couple of days ago I was reading accounts of the torture of those recently released Romanian nurses held for over a decade in Libya.

[another day]

Maybe so, but Gitmo wouldn't be nearly as bad as being in a Saudi Arabian or Afghan jail that is foresure.

Tell that to a devout muslim. I'm sure in a saudi or afghan prison, they might be subjected to torture but it wouldn't be the twisted, religious-belief perversing torture that they used in gitmo.

And anyways, that's besides the point. America is SUPPOSED to be land of the free, and the fact that its gotten to the point where america has to be compared to f**ked up countries like sauda arabia and afghanistan shows just how far the country has fallen in the past 50 years.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Um, Like a little over half a century ago we detained thousands of good citizens based solely on their race and the fact that they happened to be from Japan. We also nearly wiped an entire continentof people out of existance a little earlier in our history, and we were one of the last countries to ban slavery. America has never had a good human rights record, but, then again, niether does anyone else who aspires to power.

[rmnunez]

Tell that to a devout muslim. I'm sure in a saudi or afghan prison, they might be subjected to torture but it wouldn't be the twisted, religious-belief perversing torture that they used in gitmo.

Yes, there is this psychological dimension to the harm inflicted, aside from the panties on the head sexual antics, there were allegations of flushed Q'rans and intentionally disoriented prayers. Still, I doubt the Muslims haven't inflicted as much or worse. The religiously-premised psychological harm is something we probably wouldn't find among their own, but I wouldn't bet they haven't tried psycho-religious torture too.

And anyways, that's besides the point. America is SUPPOSED to be land of the free, and the fact that its gotten to the point where america has to be compared to f**ked up countries like sauda arabia and afghanistan shows just how far the country has fallen in the past 50 years.

I suppose its a way of seeing things. I think there are other ways. I'd note how the united statian judiciary has striven to retain the same fundamentals for citizens. I'd also remark on the precautions and deference shown the judicial branch and how these has moderated and constrained some excesses. Justice delayed is justice denied, but that isn't quite the same thing as locking them up and throwing away the key. Some due process has been recognized, not everyone is treated the same way, there are degrees of risk involved, and as we see, reasons not to release the captives even when there is no certainty of their terrorist status.

Then we ought to recognize how difficult a problem this really is. How should a "civilized" government worthy of all our admiration handle terrorist suspects? Are we 100% sold on the notion this can be handled with police s.o.p. and should the standard rules of criminal procedure apply? What account need be taken of the foreign source of evidence? How should the court handle admissibility issues?

What would you recommend, for example, in a case where the suspect was effectively tortured, yielded valuable intelligence which not only saved lives, but also made clear his guilt, responsibility and direct involvement? How about if you also had evidence the suspect retained, if not enhanced his commitment to violently attack and harm the court's government, jurisdiction or citizens?

[Ibn_Sina]

Well, there is no proof that prisoners of Gitmo are actual terrorists... I wouldn't blindly believe or digest any piece of random information coming from US government sources to manufacture consent of its citizens.

[Gods_Mercenary]

In fact, we know they al aren't, because another thread is about the U.S. releasing men wo were mistook for terrorists and trying to get them asylum in Canada.

[rmnunez]

By my estimates about half the captives ever seized have been released. There have been notorious cases of mistaken identities, minors held, allegedly some suspects were turned in just for the ransom ofered and there are even allegations a few may have been 'fingered' by disgruntled in-laws.

But most of the difficulty likely is procedural and evidentiary. The generalized charge is a conspiracy, this is an inchoate offense which requires an overt act in its furtherance (terrorist conduct). The collusive element is shown by common allegiance (to the Taliban, Al Qaeda or other groups).

But the evidence of all this emerges overseas. These are suspects accused of an international criminal conspiracy to commit terrorist acts against the US. The manifestation of intent, meetings with co-conspirators, expressions of shared aims and cooperative efforts to secure them, whatever instrumentalities and any witnesses -all arise from foreign jurisdictions and under their laws.

The relevance and admissibility of such evidence traditionally is based on interjurisdictional conventions, but the US Supreme Court doesn't recognize certain courts (including many Muslim ones). This means certified translations, depositions, court records and adjudications cannot be properly admitted. The chain of custody over whatever evidence must be recognized and this can't be done when it emerges from an unrecognized jurisdiction.

[GHook93]

<Please Delete>

[GHook93]

Tell that to a devout muslim. I'm sure in a saudi or afghan prison, they might be subjected to torture but it wouldn't be the twisted, religious-belief perversing torture that they used in gitmo.

Are you kidding! Saudi and Afghan make Gitmo seem like a trip to kiddie land! I doubt in these prisons the detainees religious rights are observed.

And anyways, that's besides the point. America is SUPPOSED to be land of the free, and the fact that its gotten to the point where america has to be compared to f**ked up countries like sauda arabia and afghanistan shows just how far the country has fallen in the past 50 years.

That is the point, we are not even close to these F** up countries, regardless of how the left makes Gitmo seem.

[another day]

Are you kidding! Saudi and Afghan make Gitmo seem like a trip to kiddie land! I doubt in these prisons the detainees religious rights are observed.

Actually I bet that's the one thing that is observed. There would not be this psycho religious-specific sexual torture that is committed by the Americans. The americans use these tactics specifically because they know they are the most painful and humiliating tactics to use on devout muslims. Devout muslims would not use the same kind of tactics on other devout muslims. They would just physically torture them.

That is the point, we are not even close to these F** up countries, regardless of how the left makes Gitmo seem.

As far as the global government and military threat, yes you are. You're way worse infact. Need I remind you that saudi arabia is one of americas strongest allies? What's that phrase, you can learn all about a man from the company he keeps...

[Gods_Mercenary]

Hey, to be fair to the U.S., the middle east is kind of short on potential desirable allies. Saudis certainly wouldn't flush the Quran down the toilet, but I wouldn't put it too far past them to do other forms of torture, especially on different sects of islam.