The bird feeder analogy...

[Gods_Mercenary]

Until one poops on you, then you might move.

[SoylentGreen]

How is assistance different than charity? And all charities I give to have programs meant to get people on their feet, not simply sucking from the bird feeder, as it were.

More in the meaning of the word.
Charity is giving without the expectation of getting something for it.
Assistance is where you invest your money and expect those that receive to do something to improve their lives.

[5010]

Very good analogy. I've known many such birds. A friend of mine needed a place to stay, so a buddy of his had a house for sale and said he could stay there until someone bought it. While he was living there for free, did he put his able-body to work and save up for his own place? No, he did the minimum amount of work necessary to support his meth and alcohol habits. Then, when the house was bought, he had to move out.

Did he say 'thank you' to the buddy who rescued him and gave him free shelter when he was 'in need'? No. He got mad and told people how mean the guy was to kick him out.

This same 'bird' has treated several people I know the same way, and when the pattern was evident, friends stopped enabling him.

Now he is gone and we don't know where he went. And we don't care.

[ZNFYRH]

5010

That sounds familiar.

You gotta know when to cut a man loose.

Really that applies to anyone... knowing when to cut them loose.

The hardest part is living with yourself if they fail. I always say not to do it unless you can live with the possible guilt.

With the type of person you mentioned, I remember feeling only a little bit of guilt and then not worrying about it. In the end, and as mean as it sounds, I was just happy they wouldn't be breeding.

If you ever get the chance to read Drew Carey's book, he tells a story about this type of person.

[5010]

Yeah ZN, and the sad thing is sometimes those same people are really great to hang out with, full of charm and wit. We all cared about this bird for a long time and that is why a number of friends were screwed over before everyone had enough of the poop.

[Dieval]

Great analogy... although I'm sure someone will scream racism or xenophobia about it...

[Warningdown]

.

Giving just money to the poor and not expecting a return on that, as your analogy implies is the worst that a government can do. They are just throwing cash at the problem with the hope it goes away.
If they invest in better health schemes, housing and education then the poor really do have a chance to improve their lot and stop being a burden.

you tell us not to throw money at the problem and then say we should increase funding? your contradicting yourself...

If we improve those systems as you say... the idea of crossing the border into America will become that much more advantageous... SO for a brief period, yeah, things would get better... but even if the flow of illegal immigrants across the border remained constant..(it would grow if we do what you say) the newly improved health care/housing/and education systems would eventually grow just as taxed as they are now, worse even...
besides, people have to realize, there is only so much money a government can mobilize for its intended purpose... especially a democratic government. So lets say X% of that money gained is actually usable... that X% is pretty tied up... and if we keep increasing funding to various programs the money spent will only lead to further inflation... combine that with the possible recession due to declining property values and you come out with a very bad mix.


the most cost effective way to solve the immigration problem is to "remove the food source".

[Warningdown]

I think it's great and I agree.

I don't know where Soylent gets the idea that this is about the poor.

It's about the government offering a kindness and illegal immigrants showing up to take advantage of it.

I'm all for removing free services for non-citizens. No trials for them... boot them out. No free food, no medicare.

I experienced a problem with this recently in an E.R. There was, I kid you not, a Hispanic having a drug overdose and throwing up all over the E.R. He did not speak English, had no driver's license, and was armed. The hospital took him and started treating him. An hour later my mother was seen, who was having severe breathing problems due to chemotherapy.

Over the days I found out that he was not a citizen, refused to pay his medical bills, did drugs while in the hospital's care, threatened staff when they asked him to leave, and left without paying a dime.

I already have a problem with all the concessions made for illegals... that incident was just more fuel for the fire.

In every other country I can think of, there are three types of non-citizens...

1. Vacationers.
2. People working on a temporary basis who will be leaving and get taxed beyond belief.
3. People trying to become citizens.

Yet America has the ridiculous 4th category that works, pays no taxes, and gets every benefit of citizenship other than voting.

i agree with you except on two points...
1. We cant take away trials... change the judicial system like that and untold consequences follow...
2. In an issue as wide spread and lasting as this... personal experiences cannot be factored into your reasoning directly...to do that is to be ignorant of the fact that your life is not an example of an entire problem.

[ZNFYRH]

Warningdown

Welcome to Volconvo.

We cant take away trials... change the judicial system like that and untold consequences follow...

The Constitution only guarantees those things to a citizen. Non-citizens have no right to expect anything.

In an issue as wide spread and lasting as this... personal experiences cannot be factored into your reasoning directly...to do that is to be ignorant of the fact that your life is not an example of an entire problem.

I wasn't citing the personal experience to demonstrate the entire problem, but moreso my experience with a particular bird pooping in a way that disturbed my life.

[Warningdown]

Human beings are not birds and cannot be expected to behave in the same way. The analogy is silly and oversimplistic.

I could easily write an analogy on the other side, saying how a bird feeder was put out, and now my yard is filled with beautiful songbirds and I'm having the best time of my life relaxing on my deck listening to the wonderful sounds.

true, you could, except the yard (California) has not benefited from illegal immigration.
YES it is over simplistic... analogies work that way, they target a very specific issue in order to arouse debate. This one, does not cover all aspects of the issue.. but points out a solution.. decrease the incentive to come to the US...

[Warningdown]

Warningdown

Welcome to Volconvo.



The Constitution only guarantees those things to a citizen. Non-citizens have no right to expect anything.



I wasn't citing the personal experience to demonstrate the entire problem, but moreso my experience with a particular bird pooping in a way that disturbed my life.

yes i understand but im just saying, personal experience does not belong in a debate... and yes the constitutions does guarantee these rights to non-citizens....
Taken straight from the 5th amendment
"Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense."

give them trial... and deport them... but take away there reason to be here... and they wont come back

[Osborn F Enready]

Warningdown said:
This one, does not cover all aspects of the issue.. but points out a solution.. decrease the incentive to come to the US...

Welcome to Volconvo.

I would agree, but wouldn't put it quite that way. It is more about removing the incenvitve for illegals, while retaining the incentive for legal immigrants.