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Thread: America needs Big Government.

  1. #13
    Volcanic Erupter
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    Quote Quote by: Autolykos View Post
    Technosoul, I would appreciate a response to my post in this thread. If, after one week, you have not responded, I will conclude that you are not actually interested in debating the subject of this thread. Thanks in advance.

    - Rob
    Stand by....


  2. #14
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    Quote Quote by: ZNFYRH View Post
    Some would tell you that because your right to free speech is being infringed upon (dictating a way you can't exercise it) then you have a case. But this isn't the thread for that question.
    You are right and I stand duely repremanded.


  3. #15
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    Quote Quote by: bishop View Post
    big government is the entity that is tossing the constitution into the trash. domestic spying (going back to the FBI's origination), anti-gun laws, mandated racial quotas, foreign welfare/aid, etc..



    none of these services are remotely free. and if you look into the details of how each public service is funded, you will see loads of waste - at the taxpayer's expense. moreover, federal red tape makes much of these services much more expensive - especially healthcare.



    this already happens. the media labeled the WTO protestors in seattle as deviants even though there were only a few who caused trouble. the media also chose not to show footage of cops beating protestors and hosing them down with CS spray..



    big government is for people who want their nanny to take care of them for fear of taking life's reigns in their own hands.



    and stop this by voting against establishment candidates who have deep roots into all of the country's big corporations.


    personally, i think america needs more educated and informed people....
    Big Government would be both federal and local forms of government. And would infold all departments and agents so assinged for the purposes of governmental dogma. And under the likes of President Bush and others that "bigness" is made fatter by international trade agreements that might trump some of our pre-established regulations here in the USA.

    The concept of freedom is in fact a illusion. I used the word "free" in the sense that the service can be provided to you personally even if you cannot prove you can personally pay for it up front.

    The treatment of those protesters was an abuse of power and the local governments should not give such directions. And also, protesters should conduct their self in a peaceful way.

    Domestic spying is what got Nixon in hot water. Now the cops do stake outs in areas where gangs hang out to sell drugs, they spy on people who might do a terrorist act, the spy on the internet to capture potential child preditors, they might even spy on people inside the government who could be selling top secrets to forien governments. Do you want to stop that activity? Spying on innocent people without reasonable cause is still not advocated by any program in effect.

    If properly managed a number of those programs such as aid to Israel would be aborted. I do not advocate miss-managment in government.

    Mandated equality was a temporary fix to get things started and most agrree that it is now time to re-address that ruling relative to some insitutions.


  4. #16
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    Quote Quote by: Autolykos View Post
    Technosoul, I would appreciate a response to my post in this thread. If, after one week, you have not responded, I will conclude that you are not actually interested in debating the subject of this thread. Thanks in advance.

    - Rob
    Please stand by....


  5. #17
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    Quote Quote by: Osborn F Enready View Post
    Sheeple need big government.

    The American people need to find their spine and re-discover their individualism.

    Regardless of what the sheeple want, many of the "remaining" Americans out here who know where their spine is won't be surrendering, so pack a "big" lunch for your "big" brother.
    You forgot about my Big Nanny.

    Big government should respect individual rights and diversity.


  6. #18
    sdbest
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    Quote Quote by: Technosoul View Post
    Big government should respect individual rights and diversity.
    In the western democracies, with the possible exception of the United States, "big government" not only respects individual rights and diversity, but also promotes it.

    Regards
    S.


  7. #19
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    Quote Quote by: Autolykos View Post
    I suggest reading the 9th and 10th Amendments. Translation: Not all rights need be enforced on the national level.



    As Wikipedia would say, citation (or explanation) needed.



    Close! Change "companies" to the more general "organizations" and you would be spot-on. (I.e., not all private organizations are for-profit.)



    I think you need to be more explicit with your reasoning here. Translation: Non sequitur (logic) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    At least you put "free" in quotes, which means (hopefully) that you understand these things are not actually free at all. So what difference does it make? We pay for services one way or another.



    The first part is already here "in spite of" government. As for the second part, it smells like a non-sequitur to me (in relation to the first).



    Of course, that depends on how you define "control".



    Ironically enough, right now we have the biggest government and the most corporate involvement in government! Doesn't that kinda invalidate your hypothesis?



    "Movement"? Hell, by your standards, they already have.

    - Rob
    About your objection (with link provided) - I am not presenting a philosophy theory here in this post. I am showing the difference between governmental programs and domestic industries. Your claim about those non-profit organizations is wrong, they make lots of profit for their managers, the Pope's organization owns more property here in the USA then most people on wall street. ( hmm, we should place a sin tax on all the Pope's profit he makes off of charity). You want some free charity... we will pray for you. Get real. People don't want prayers or a balony sandwish handout, they want real help.

    "free" was as you said. It means that if someone needs medical attention or a fire put out it will be provided even if they cannot prove they can personally pay for it up front. If does not force people to have a credit card in good standing.

    Yes, I mentioned that in my O.P. The current big government is largely controlled by the corperate interests of private industry and such coruption must be rooted out before my claim becomes a valid reality.
    To have a real and valid government it must be free of improper influences concerning policy making. Although the voice of industry should not fall on deff ears ether.

    Thank you for standing by....


  8. #20
    Altruism Assassin Gods_Mercenary's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Technosoul View Post
    Sorry, the title stands as is.

    "what? your house is on fire with the baby inside, okay, let us run a credit check on you before our private company can put out your fire for you'.... stand by please.,... oops, sorry but you were not approved".
    Ben Franklin invented the first munincipal fire department long before government was as big as it is, I don't think many of us are complaining that town governments are too invasive. Since fire and police are run at this level, you wouldn't need to privatize anything.

    “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.”
    -Albert Einstein

  9. #21
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    Quote Quote by: sdbest View Post
    In the western democracies, with the possible exception of the United States, "big government" not only respects individual rights and diversity, but also promotes it.

    Regards
    S.
    I would agree that those are the idealistic reasons for a modern democracy.

    Would of, could of, should of. In a nut shell. The consitution should be of an for the people, and the government should make sure it is interpreted that way. And not just the wealthy gun dealers or the superstars of Starbuck, but also those at the bottom of economical system. But it is also about America as an idenity. That identity will live on from generation to generation while the rest of us are only passing through it from one sleep into another sleep. It is something that was passed down to us and that we will pass down to the future generations. We each have some responsibility to pass it down in good condition. And that duty rests cheifly on the shoulders of our government to insure that the concept of America remains forever solid and upright, like a flag that has not fallen into the dust of deception and coruption. We the people, those who labor and defend that concept in times of war, are the flesh and blood of that concept.

    Remember the fallen and lift up the future. Let compassion, understanding, fairness, honesty, and the self evident truisms of equality illuminate the pathway before us, and be swayed not off the pathway by the dogmatic demonizers of democracy.


  10. #22
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    Quote Quote by: Gods_Mercenary View Post
    Ben Franklin invented the first munincipal fire department long before government was as big as it is, I don't think many of us are complaining that town governments are too invasive. Since fire and police are run at this level, you wouldn't need to privatize anything.
    I am all for the idea of community spirit getting together to respond to emergency situations, in the last neighborhood I lived in we had a community watch program, and a group of people who were prepared to respond locally duing an earthquake to help out folks in our local community. Those plans work best in small towns but can also work in city neighborhoods. One group spearheaded a project to plant gardens through out the neighborhood. But the fire departments are no longer run that way (where townspeople would all come rushing in to help out), in fact the police often rope off an emergency area to keep the public away so that the "officals" can operate without the confusion that a large crowd of people might cause. Fire departments are in fact partly funded by the federal government. Many poorer neighborhoods or poor towns could not afford to keep a "state of the art" fire department in operation and so only the rich neighborhoods would have such a service if it were not of outside funding coming in via taxes.


  11. #23
    Altruism Assassin Gods_Mercenary's Avatar
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    So then the state helps balance the situation out with a few of the funds gained from its taxes. No one's questioning that the government should tax it's citizens, just on the scale that they do now.

    “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.”
    -Albert Einstein

  12. #24
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    Quote Quote by: Gods_Mercenary View Post
    So then the state helps balance the situation out with a few of the funds gained from its taxes. No one's questioning that the government should tax it's citizens, just on the scale that they do now.
    People are indeed concerned about the high costs of taxation.

    And waste was one of the reasons things got too much out of hand, the only person I know of who took action on governmental waste was VP Al Gore. Partly by replacing paperwork with computers to bring government up to some of the standards used by private industry, relative to regulating overhead expendatures. His involvement helped to give the Clinton budget some good reviews.

    The other stuff people debate about is not only tax collection but how the tax is spent and for what purposes. If they do not like a program they sceam "higher taxes and more spending", but if they favor a program then they often remian silent about the "costs to the taxpayer". Few bitched about spending money to rebuild the south or to aid the victims of that big hurricane which distroyed a whole city. But were unhappy to find out the money was not being spent as promised.

    We bitch because our freeways are grid locked with too many cars but also would bitch about more taxes to build more freeways to solve that problem. If we want to partake of the American Pie we have to pay for it, bake it and shake it. But we must also find ways to streamline the system and effect the projects of most value to the majority and drop some of the projects that only aid the wealthy few, or some other minority group of odd ducks.


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