Can fascism be American?

[rmnunez]

the states would always eventually come in to straighten the mess out. So, if the fasicst control continued, it would be nothing other than a coup.

We can only hope the federal structure would serve as a brake because there have been fascist models in federal states (Germany). I think a much closer state/national relationship is required than what prevails in the US.

if the fasicst control continued, it would be nothing other than a coup.

I'm not sure I follow. The coup, short for "coup d'etat" is the way fascists take control. It means hit, strike or blow, against the state in French. This is typically undertaken by the military and literally involves hitting or striking the head of state, often by actually attacking and killing him or destroying the seat of executive power and chasing him away.

This system of government is attractive because it always features messianic leadership, great visions of the future and highly motivated leaders with great goals. Everyone is imbued with this shared spirit and purpose, a pursuit of some epic "national mission".

But it has its serious difficulties. One crucial problem is legitimacy and this always involves problems with institution, term and succession. The coup is thrown, martial law applied and emergency powers assumed, these are specified and limited, of provisional application due to exceptional circumstances, but it is completely within the bounds of the law. Once the enhanced powers are seized, the ruler applies them to accomplish that mission. Usually this works out quite well, but then the ruler realizes that he would rather remain in control and can accomplish other missions, and when his subjects express disapproval those enhanced powers make repression an easy choice.

Dictators, tyrants, despots, "strongmen" and other rulers become entrenched in their positions. Sometimes they become paranoiac and purge the military. Often they want to favour their most loyal followers and promote family and friends whose rapacity and greed are ignored and disregarded. With time all this gets institutionalized and corruptly exploited, interests arise and this problem with continuity and succession.

If you figured the states would throw a coup against the federal government if it became too fascistic, this is more unlikely. You need a charismatic leader to throw a coup, the states don't act together except via the executive. A bunch of them are not going to rally together under one of their governors, and if some were in the coup and others opposed, the stage is laid for civil war.

Impeachment is a special and highly politicised procedure to attack the personification of executive authority. This is something that is inherently risky to national security in peacetime, while at war it would be even more so -particularly as the proceedings are pursued due to opposition to the war.

The process requires qualified majorities to make it more difficult to do this, because we don't want an Italian-style system with governments ousted every time the president has a disagreement with the legislature. Hence a 'supermajority' is required in Congress to initiate these proceedings against Bush.

This isn't going to happen for many reasons; it would be very bad for any Republican prospects in the elections; it is very risky in an electoral context as the endorsers stake their prospects to the outcome; it would be very bad for the military engagements underway; it looks like this is done because of disagreements on policy issues which are recognized as an executive capacity; it is a complicated and arduous process which is unlikely to conclude satisfactorily before Bush's term ends.

State governors favouring impeachment are not part of the picture, what are needed is state legislators in Washington of this mien.

The only "mechanism" states have to prevent fascism is one that arises naturally triggered by federal encroachments. Since fascism applies exceptional powers from a centralized authority, invariably these come into conflict with the current sharing of competences and capacities. When this happens, governors challenge the sacrifice of their state's authority. This acts as a brake at all levels through administrative agencies.

Consider how governors and the federal authorities have dealt with the immigration matter and notice how budgets, jurisdictions, equipment and responsibilities constantly are subject to dispute between state and federal institutions pursuing conflicting policies. Governors with large, powerful and active immigrant communties who want to take a more laid back attitude struggling against federal excesses, others alarmed over the "aliens" chaffing at the federal curbs on what states can do and restrictions in funding.

I think the difficulties prevent a fascist system from ever being successfully implemented, presidents can assume exceptional powers, but in due course the need passes and the status quo ante restored.

[christibe]

Thank you. :)

I agree. Also, I was using coup only to mean that the fascist government performed the overthrow of federalism.

[grandpa]

Quote by: BobbyO Gee grandpa, in all the other posts we have clashed on, you have repeatedly stressed as to how "simple" in practice and execution your proposals really are...

Authoritarian systems tend to be simple-minded, which is why a lot of changes would be quite simple.

Grandpa h.

[Nono]

Quote by: Bob Huey Long once said that if fascism came to America, it would be called "Americanism." The problem is in defining fascism. It is NOT a conservative movement. On the contrary, fascists always call for programs and policies that are decidedly progressive in nature. It is NOT a millitary movement. Fascists tend to dislike the their country's professional millitary and either seek to supplant it with something like a people's millitia, or they place their allies in key positions in the millitary, so as to control. It is NOT a minority movement as it justifies its existence and power on the basis of it having majority support of the people. It is NOT a defender of capitalism, as it blames it for the miseries of people which fascism pledges to fix. What it is IS, is a movement which seeks to use the power of the government to improve and better the lives of people through governemt action. It can certaily be racial and ethnic, as it often seeks to create a common bond with people along those lines.

I was going to quote Huey Long myself. In fact, think I will: "Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised as 100 percent Americanism. "

There's a great deal to what you say about fascism. But you leave out the part about improving the common lot in order to sacrifice the little guy on the altar of war with one's neighbours. That's the way it goes -- militarism, militarism and more miltarism.
And, naturally, the fat cats generally get a lot fatter in the process.

And even before that there's the scapegoating of minority groups in society as a means to get the majority foaming at the mouth.

Ain't pretty.

[christibe]

Quote by: Nono And even before that there's the scapegoating of minority groups in society as a means to get the majority foaming at the mouth. Ain't pretty.

...I can't wait

[billybobama]

You are right. We put in power the Fascist Republican Party. Now look where we are at. Huge Government, Huge Fascist Military State dedicated to constant warfare, Huge Debt ( I like to call it the Debt Tax), a constant stream of misinformation, lies and propaganda, a controlled News Media (hardly liberal), the normal common man being used as nothing but fodder for big business and a big war machine. It will be interesting to see where we go from here.

[billybobama]

Quote by: christibe True. But, if in our understanding of the Constitution through law and legislation it becomes acceptable to have fascism, does it not then become American to be fascist in that form? I am suggesting that the current Administration has used the tools of the system to create fascism.

If you study U.S. History you will find that the Republican Party has always been Fascist. Just google the American Liberty Party.

[grandpa]

Quote by: billybobama If you study U.S. History you will find that the Republican Party has always been Fascist. Just google the American Liberty Party.

Honestly, I think any political party claiming to do thing in God's name ould probably be autocratic/fascist.

And, of course, the Democratic Party was the party of outspoken racism.

[christibe]

Yep, the depression and WWII started switching around what the 'parties' are. In the 60s-late-80s, probably?, there were still two, at least. Now there is one. How long will it take to blend them officially?

joy joy

Honestly, though, what IS there to do about all of this? I really don't know if it can be changed by us people anymore. Is it going to take just one too many provocations by the US to other nations, and THEY will have to come in and stabilize us? Or, do we all just have to sit and watch America's despotism grow, until the ruling class destroys itself, as they usually do?