"Time makes it right"-Paradox of the continuous longest settlement claim in Palestine

[Atlas]

One of the key arguments of every Palestinian or Palestinian supporter is the aggressive settlement of Jews in Israel\Palestine in the last century, together with the outcome of the 48' war brought the Jews to a sovereignty and majority in Israel after a definite Arab/Palestinian one that stood for more than a thousand years, so what was allegedly a cruel and violent takeover cannot be considered a rightful claim and control over the land, and when the other side mentions that the Arabs weren't such peace loving hippies either when they decided to move here the most common response is - "chill' man... it was like 1400 years ago...".

So, is time of residence really the main factor in a claim for a land regardless of the overall violence of the conquest, settlement, murder and deportation of unwanted populations ? If so shouldn't the Jewish claim be reinforced with the extra ~2000 they've been here before the Muslims and Arabs further down history ? or does the factor applies only to "the most time in the land by the current majority and the previous one", in that case the Arab claim surely wins by far, and in that case, shouldn't the twinkling Jewish majority of the Israel learn from this supposed factor that no one cares how you got here if you've been here long enough, maybe it should, deport all the Arabs to wherever, reset the timer, and start counting, until the answer to an Arab demanding to return to Palestine would be - "Chill' man... that was like a 1000 years ago...", and nobody would even remember what was the level violence and aggressiveness of the Jewish resettlement here way back in the 20th century, only that they are there, and where the only ones there for a while, the same status Arabs\Palestinians enjoy today.

[Yarn]

But Israel is still violently stealing land. Thats not just something it did 50 years ago, its still doing it today and it has been doing it for 50 years. Further more, Israel, for the sake of its security, impoverishes millions, kills thousands, and gets over a billion Muslims angry at the west.

[Dieval]

Quote by: Yarn But Israel is still violently stealing land.

I thought Isreal gave back land in an (unsuccessful) attempt to curb the violence....

Quote by: Yarn and gets over a billion Muslims angry at the west.

.....sooo...wipe Isreal off the map?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Dieval I thought Isreal gave back land in an (unsuccessful) attempt to curb the violence.... .....sooo...wipe Isreal off the map?

Stop supporting Isreal with money or military technology. Make a very public statement about this intention.

Isreal would of course scream betrayl, but other Arab nations would be forced to applaud the US (They use our support of Isreal all the time to incite hatred) It won't stop terrorism, but it will take away a key justification many groups us to confront and explain their attacks on US and allies.

Of course many jewish americans would be deepy offended, but the problem there is the fact they still consider themselves "jewish americans." If you live in the US as a citizen you should be an American, and not cling to your heritage as a way to identify yourself.

[Dieval]

Quote by: HelioPrime Stop supporting Isreal with money or military technology. Make a very public statement about this intention. Isreal would of course scream betrayl, but other Arab nations would be forced to applaud the US (They use our support of Isreal all the time to incite hatred) It won't stop terrorism, but it will take away a key justification many groups us to confront and explain their attacks on US and allies. Of course many jewish americans would be deepy offended, but the problem there is the fact they still consider themselves "jewish americans." If you live in the US as a citizen you should be an American, and not cling to your heritage as a way to identify yourself.

So, appeasement is your answer? Because the Arab nations don't like Israel, we should stop our support for them?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Dieval So, appeasement is your answer? Because the Arab nations don't like Israel, we should stop our support for them?

Why are we supporting Israel in the first place, for appeasment to our citizens and to snub the arab world which we view as breeding grounds for terrorism?

[GHook93]

Quote by: Yarn But Israel is still violently stealing land. Thats not just something it did 50 years ago, its still doing it today and it has been doing it for 50 years. Further more, Israel, for the sake of its security, impoverishes millions, kills thousands, and gets over a billion Muslims angry at the west.

Wrong Israel is giving it back! :rolleyes:

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: HelioPrime Stop supporting Isreal with money or military technology. Make a very public statement about this intention. Isreal would of course scream betrayl, but other Arab nations would be forced to applaud the US (They use our support of Isreal all the time to incite hatred) It won't stop terrorism, but it will take away a key justification many groups us to confront and explain their attacks on US and allies. Of course many jewish americans would be deepy offended, but the problem there is the fact they still consider themselves "jewish americans." If you live in the US as a citizen you should be an American, and not cling to your heritage as a way to identify yourself.

I consider myself Franco American, because I am, the vast majority of my descendants traveled to the Americas from France, that does not make me some French agent in the system, it simply means I am of French descent. Surely as an inhabitant of New England (though MA is more so in this respect) you know that many if not most people identify themselves as Irish american, Italian american, etc. As to the withdrawal of support, what will it solve besides making the jihadists work harder at proving we're zionist bastards.

[Yarn]

As far as I know, the giving back of the land in Gaza, is the only major giving back of land, that Israel has ever done.

"Jerusalem is about to embark on one of the largest demolition jobs in the city's recent history, with the homes of more than 1,000 Palestinians to be bulldozed.

The city council says the homes are illegal, built on a historic and religious site, and it plans to use the land in Arab East Jerusalem to build a park. But Palestinians say they've owned the land for longer than the State of Israel has existed.

It was only a few years after the fall of the Ottoman Empire in Palestine that Mohammad Badran's great-grandmother bought the land on which this house was built.

But like nearly 90 other homeowners in Silwan in East Jerusalem, Mohammad Badran has been served with a demolition order by Israel.

"We built this house in 1961, that's seven years before Israel annexed east Jerusalem," he tells me. "My family bought the land in 1920, before Israel was even created," he says.

"Ever since the Israelis occupied this part of the city we have paid all the rates and the taxes they have asked for," says Mohammad Badran. "So if this house was built illegally, why has Israel charged us taxes for the last 38 years?" He asks.

Israel is ordering the demolitions under law 212, which allows the State to demolish any building, legally erected or not. The demolitions have been ordered by the city engineer Uri Shetrit, who says the Palestinian houses are built on a site of religious and historical value.

URI SHETRIT: My responsibility is very clear. It's to impose the building laws in Jerusalem. If not for historic and heritage reasons, for the basic safety of people.

MARK WILLACY: In a protest tent in the heart of Silwan, Mohammad Badran and his neighbours discuss the demolition orders. Many acknowledge they have built illegally, because they say the Israeli authorities refuse to issue approvals for new housing.

"I live in this house with my three brothers and their families, 25 people in total," says Mohammad Badran. "If the Israelis demolish this house we'll all be out on the street, along with 1,000 others."

Then, clutching the faded and tattered land title deed issued in 1920, Mohammad Badran smiles. "For 20 years I worked for the Jerusalem City Council as a garbage collector. And as a reward they want to demolish my house," he tells me."
- AM - Israel plans to bulldoze houses in Palestinian area of Jerusalem

Israel is stealing Palestinian owned land within Israel's 1967 borders.

"From the outset of its occupation, the government of Israel has deliberately settled its citizens in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip despite the clear prohibition of this action under the Fourth Geneva Convention, to which Israel is a party. Israel has constructed a legal shroud to shield its settlement policy from criticism by maintaining that these territories are not occupied but were "liberated" or are "disputed," despite international consensus and decisions by Israel's High Court to the contrary.

Israel has institutionalized its settlement project by creating government departments and "lawful" procedures for construction of settlements. Israeli ministries are involved in almost all steps, from confiscating Palestinian land to developing and approving the physical and economic infrastructure, issuing tenders for building, and constructing roads for settlers. Some settlers, often driven by religious belief in their divine right to the land, establish outposts outside the "lawful" settlement zone and subsequently secure government authorization.

However, the majority of Israeli settlers are lured to occupied territory by promises of subsidies from six government ministries for those living in areas formally designated by the Israeli cabinet as a "national priority." To date, the Israeli government has sunk approximately $10 billion into building settlements.

While expanding settlements Israel simultaneously contains Palestinian development. It unlawfully confiscates property, denies Palestinians the right to register their land and restricts Palestinian growth to limited areas, thereby reserving available land for settlement expansion. In order to ensure Israeli citizens have access to their settlements, Palestinians face restrictions on movement, including 600 physical barriers on West Bank roads, and endure long waits at checkpoints."
- MERIP Op-Eds: Israeli Settlements Illegal and Getting Worse, by Stephanie Koury

"The US has issued a rare rebuke to Israel over its plan to build its first new settlement in the West Bank for more than 10 years.

Israel says a former army base will house 30 families who left the Gaza Strip last year when Israeli troops and settlers were withdrawn."
- US condemns Israeli settlement plan. 28/12/2006. ABC News Online

Israel has been stealing new land in the West Bank, and in Gaza, for most of the time of Israel's existence. And after a 10 year lull, Israel has started stealing more land in the West Bank again. This is all in the context, of many Palestinians being willing to have peace, only when Israel withdraws into its 1967 borders.

[Atlas]

Quote by: Yarn But Israel is still violently stealing land. Thats not just something it did 50 years ago, its still doing it today and it has been doing it for 50 years. Further more, Israel, for the sake of its security, impoverishes millions, kills thousands, and gets over a billion Muslims angry at the west.

Since 67' Israel did not expand its territory even by a mere inch, all of the west bank and Gaza strip still belong militarily to Israel, even if by no other power than the cease fire agreement with Jordan and Egypt that ended the war back then.

Quote by: HelioPrime Stop supporting Israel with money or military technology. Make a very public statement about this intention. Israel would of course scream betrayl, but other Arab nations would be forced to applaud the US (They use our support of Israel all the time to incite hatred) It won't stop terrorism, but it will take away a key justification many groups us to confront and explain their attacks on US and allies.

Yeah, like that's the only justification the fanatics can come up with to attack the west, if Israel was to be denied any military aid or even somehow razed from existence it would only provoke them to continue with terrorism because it provides them with successful results.

Quote by: HelioPrime Of course many jewish americans would be deepy offended, but the problem there is the fact they still consider themselves "jewish americans." If you live in the US as a citizen you should be an American, and not cling to your heritage as a way to identify yourself.

Right,,, unlike those millions of law abiding Muslim immigrants and their unparalleled devotion to the US and other countries they live in ...:rolleyes:

I think the Jews in America are the most Faithful minority in the US despite their obvious sympathy and support for their home country, like if Italy would be in some conflict and Italian Americans wouldn't support her... Please...:rolleyes:

Quote by: Yarn As far as I know, the giving back of the land in Gaza, is the only major giving back of land, that Israel has ever done.

Right... not counting the Sinai which is 2 times the size of Israel itself and the Administrative (and supposedly law enforcing) Autonomy in Gaza and the West Bank, We pulled out of Gaza razing the homes of our own citizens fore the chance of some regional and temporary peace and quiet and look what happend... an Islamic republic with the main agenda to destroy all of Israel right on our doorstep... well... that didn't work didn't it... than why should we possibly do it again in the west bank ?

Quote by: Yarn The city council says the homes are illegal, built on a historic and religious site, and it plans to use the land in Arab East Jerusalem to build a park. But Palestinians say they've owned the land for longer than the State of Israel has existed.

Right exactly like they had no trouble of building that golden shrine on the temple mound 1300 Years ago, that's not the point of the argument I presented, Israel technically control these lands, no matter who lives there, so why not give the finger to whoever objects, stick your claws into the holy ground and wait for time to wash away the ugliness of conquest (or should I say reconquest) like the Arabs did back when they came here ?

Quote by: Yarn It was only a few years after the fall of the Ottoman Empire in Palestine that Mohammad Badran's great-grandmother bought the land on which this house was built.

Actually, a time the first Zionist settlers already lived most of their live in Israel/Palestine since the end of the 19th century, but again, irrelevant.

Quote by: Yarn Palestinians being willing to have peace, only when Israel withdraws into its 1967 borders.

And many don't, some do ? Their opinions may drastically change within a short time in the case of the citizens of the Palestinian authority, so what we should just take a chance ? As any sane country, when at a conflict, Israel is willing to make sacrifices for the assurance of peace, not the slight possibility of it, many regard the borders after 67' as controversial yet the borders after 48' where (if not are) just as controversial before 67'... so the Palestinians might start bitching about that if Israels "finally" withdraws to the 67' borders, or maybe Israel should just stream to war and conquer new territories so that the post - 67' borders would suddenly seem more legitimate ?

Again, I would appreciate a discussion about my first argument instead of the repeating of the same arguments circulated endlessly in other threads, I do not deny most of them, but they are quite the same every time I see them.

So, shortly, the Roman and later Arab cruelty of the conquest of Palestine from its former owners (the Jews) is ignored because of the vast amount of time that had past since then, the question is why shouldn't be as cruel as it can and as it needs to ensure full control over their homeland and just wait for time to pass ?

[grandpa]

Quote by: Atlas Since 67' Israel did not expand its territory even by a mere inch, all of the west bank and Gaza strip still belong militarily to Israel, even if by no other power than the cease fire agreement with Jordan and Egypt that ended the war back then. Yeah, like that's the only justification the fanatics can come up with to attack the west, if Israel was to be denied any military aid or even somehow razed from existence it would only provoke them to continue with terrorism because it provides them with successful results.

Okay, that's your opinion. And I certainly agree that, as time goes on, Islamic crazies will likely be a bigger problem.

But let's look at some general details:

1. Israel and the massive expulsion of Palestinians in 1948 is not a fiction.

2. Palestinians are second class citizens, with few or no rights at all.

3. Israel tries to justify its illegal fence of apartheid because of Palestinian terrorist reactions (it's by no means unfair to mention Israeli "apartheid," because, unsurprisingly, Israel also supported South African apartheid).

4. Israel is heavily reliant on US military aid (in fact, this aid is the leading cause of Israeli military capacity).

5. Some Israelis have the radical view that Palestinians never existed on "Israeli" soil (a view held by the late Israeli PM Golda Meir, and also a viewpoint which obviously could delay peace forever)

There is another option left to people, one that is not Israel or Islam.
It's simply to put nationalism, religion, terrorism, coercion and elitism aside.
But that's apparently an unthinkable option. Nukes and increased hostilities are the way to go -- so long as the nukes are in "Western" hands (I suppose, the US does know how to use them).

Grandpa h.

[Yarn]

Since 67' Israel did not expand its territory even by a mere inch, all of the west bank and Gaza strip still belong militarily to Israel, even if by no other power than the cease fire agreement with Jordan and Egypt that ended the war back then.

When they refer to 1967, I believe they refer to before the occupation.

Right... not counting the Sinai which is 2 times the size of Israel itself

Which is a bunch of worthless desert. Withdrawing occupation does not count as giving back land. Only withdrawing settlement does. You can't give back land which you didn't own.

and the Administrative (and supposedly law enforcing) Autonomy in Gaza and the West Bank, We pulled out of Gaza razing the homes of our own citizens fore the chance of some regional and temporary peace and quiet and look what happend... an Islamic republic with the main agenda to destroy all of Israel right on our doorstep... well... that didn't work didn't it... than why should we possibly do it again in the west bank ?

What a selfish question to ask.

Ok, the settlements exist, they do exist at least in part, on what is in every sense stolen land, but why don't we just forget that. Even if we do, by vice of their existence-this fence, the Palestinian economy is being choked to death and people are as a result starving.

And similarly, while it may be permissable in some cases to just live and let live, and (given enough time passed, and enough practical concerns) forget that land is stolen, as I proved with my articles earlier, Israel is still stealing land. Is not theft wrong? Or do you not share that belief?

Right exactly like they had no trouble of building that golden shrine on the temple mound 1300 Years ago, that's not the point of the argument I presented, Israel technically control these lands, no matter who lives there, so why not give the finger to whoever objects, stick your claws into the holy ground and wait for time to wash away the ugliness of conquest (or should I say reconquest) like the Arabs did back when they came here ?

The Arabs 1300 years ago, are not the same Arabs who possess these lands today, and these Arabs are entirely innocent from the crime of land theft. This idea of an millenia jumping eye for an eye conflict, justifying stealing land from innocents, is barbaric. Israel is not poor and its population is not growing greatly, let it buy the land it wants to expand to encompass, or if such land is not for sale, then let it live on and use well the plentiful and rich land it already owns.

Actually, a time the first Zionist settlers already lived most of their live in Israel/Palestine since the end of the 19th century, but again, irrelevant.

So whats your point?

That does not refute the fact that this man's great grandmother bought the property, and that it was his, until the state of Israel stole it, without giving just compensation which it was perfectly capable of bestowing.

And many don't, some do ? Their opinions may drastically change within a short time in the case of the citizens of the Palestinian authority, so what we should just take a chance ? As any sane country, when at a conflict, Israel is willing to make sacrifices for the assurance of peace, not the slight possibility of it, many regard the borders after 67' as controversial yet the borders after 48' where (if not are) just as controversial before 67'... so the Palestinians might start bitching about that if Israels "finally" withdraws to the 67' borders, or maybe Israel should just stream to war and conquer new territories so that the post - 67' borders would suddenly seem more legitimate ?

I would state that it would appear obvious to me the biggest thing preventing Israel from obtaining peace, and the biggest thing preventing it from obtaining amicable relations with its neighboors, is the resentment and hatred it recieves for the flagrant selfishness, and disresprect for all human life but its own, it exhibits, via its continous strangling of the economies of millions, its continuous stealing of property, its repeated out proportion humanitarian disaster creating responses to minute threats, which produce for example, hundreds to over a thousand deaths, and up to millions of refugees...

I mean what person on Earth wouldn't hate you if you did all of that to his people?

Sure there is a religious element. But even Syria and Saudi Arabia, are not all together against the prospect of an permenent Israel in Cannaan with certain conditions. You have got relations with Egypt. All this in spite of all of the henious things youve done. The religious element is a slogan, but it is not the primary motivator, has not been for a long time.

Look at how peaceful muslims in America are. You want to know why?

Because they have decent lives.

[shrike]

Quote by: grandpa Okay, that's your opinion. And I certainly agree that, as time goes on, Islamic crazies will likely be a bigger problem. But let's look at some general details: 1. Israel and the massive expulsion of Palestinians in 1948 is not a fiction.

There were no systematic expulsion of Palestinians like you claim most of the Palestinians fled because of the war not Israel started bat their Arab friends.

2. Palestinians are second class citizens, with few or no rights at all.

Why should Palestinians receive any rights? They not Israeli citizens they are PA citizens. It’s like asking from Israel give some rights to Syrians.

3. Israel tries to justify its illegal fence of apartheid because of Palestinian terrorist reactions (it's by no means unfair to mention Israeli "apartheid," because, unsurprisingly, Israel also supported South African apartheid).

Are you claim there is no terrorist action? The fence reduced greatly terrorist activity. If there was no terrorist activity there was no need of any fence. Yes it coursed some inconvenience to local population .What more important to you life of innocent person or some inconvenience?

4. Israel is heavily reliant on US military aid (in fact, this aid is the leading cause of Israeli military capacity).

Israel won 3 wars without American aid and it perfectly capable win more.

5. Some Israelis have the radical view that Palestinians never existed on "Israeli" soil (a view held by the late Israeli PM Golda Meir, and also a viewpoint which obviously could delay peace forever)

Radical views exist in every society.

There is another option left to people, one that is not Israel or Islam. It's simply to put nationalism, religion, terrorism, coercion and elitism aside.

This will never happen and because of this Jews have to rely only on themselves because no one care when someone kill Jews. History showed it vey well.We would be stupid not to learn from that.

[Yarn]

Why should Palestinians receive any rights? They not Israeli citizens they are PA citizens. It’s like asking from Israel give some rights to Syrians.

Many Palestinians live within Israels borders (and not the PAs), why shouldn't they be Israeli citizens, if they have been there for decades?

Are you claim there is no terrorist action? The fence reduced greatly terrorist activity. If there was no terrorist activity there was no need of any fence. Yes it coursed some inconvenience to local population .What more important to you life of innocent person or some inconvenience?

"Medecins du Monde, the Palestinian Red Crescent Society and Physicians for Human Rights-Israel have stated that the barrier "harms West Bank health".[51] Upon completion of the construction, the organizations predict, the barrier would prevent over 130,000 Palestinian children from being immunised, and deny more than 100,000 pregnant women (out of which 17,640 are high risk pregnancies) access to healthcare in Israel. In addition, almost a third of West Bank villages will suffer from lack of access to healthcare. After completion, many residents may lose complete access to emergency care at night. In towns near Jerusalem (Abu Dis and Aizaria), for example, average time for an ambulance to travel to the nearest hospital has increased from 10 minutes to over 110 minutes.[52]

A report from Physicians for Human Rights-Israel also states that the barrier imposes "almost-total separation" on the hospitals from the population they are supposed to serve.[53] The report also noted that patients from the West Bank visiting Jerusalem's Palestinian clinics declined by half from 2002 to 2003.
"
- Israeli West Bank barrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes it is effective in preventing terrorist attacks, and in reducing provocation of Israel's wrath, and so it saves both Israeli and Palestinian lives. However, if the above statistics are accurate, it significantly harms the health of hundreds of thousands people, and if it does so, then the equation does not tilt towards humanitarian good or less deaths.

I will admit, I should have done my research on this earlier. Were it not for its isolating so many Palestinians from Physcians, this wall would be an overall good thing.

Israel won 3 wars without American aid and it perfectly capable win more.

I would agree that Israel doesn't need the USes help to be militarily viable. However, as Jimmy Carter proved, the US is capable of reigning Israel in, when Israel gets too wild.

What we want to do, is excersize our leverage over Israel, in order to make it more moral. If we withdraw support from Israel completely, the effects will not destroy it, and Israel will just start acting even less responsibly.

This will never happen and because of this Jews have to rely only on themselves because no one care when someone kill Jews. History showed it vey well.We would be stupid not to learn from that.

There is never an excuse for net evil, and Israel frequently pursues net evil. Furthermore, jews are no longer opressed in the west.

[grandpa]

Quote by: shrike Why should Palestinians receive any rights? They not Israeli citizens they are PA citizens. It’s like asking from Israel give some rights to Syrians.

Why should Israel deprive them of rights (which is exactly what Israel is doing)?

Quote by: shrike Are you claim there is no terrorist action? The fence reduced greatly terrorist activity. If there was no terrorist activity there was no need of any fence. Yes it coursed some inconvenience to local population . What more important to you life of innocent person or some inconvenience?

Apparently, you have a reading problem. I indeed said Palestinians have committed terrorist acts, but so does Israel. I have no doubt of that. In fact, the fence they erected no doubt contributes to their terrorist planning (as did the World Bank funds which built it).

But this is an age old tactic. If you oppose one side, you must support the other. Israel is incapable of doing anything wrong, and it, like any other state, supposedly has a right to exist and push others around. So I'll use the fence as a methaphor. When it comes to atrocities, there is no fence to sit upon. You either pledge support to them, or you work in whatever little way you can to subvert them. That's why I try to count one atrocity as relatively equal to another.

The "inconvenience" you mention is state policy-induced fear, poverty and humiliation, which people react to with violence.
All of this is predictable.

Quote by: shrike Radical views exist in every society.

Sure enough, but that's an Israeli PM, right? Some views are more dangerous than others, especially in the hands of the powerful. That particular view is a perversity, as is your view that palestinians were never expelled from Israel.

Quote by: shrike This will never happen and because of this Jews have to rely only on themselves because no one care when someone kill Jews. History showed it vey well. We would be stupid not to learn from that.

Whatever. Plenty of people care when Jews die. You have to be kidding! That's like saying lierally nobody cared about the Trail of Tears or teh abolition of slavery.

What you are forgetting is that Israel does not represent all Jews, nor could it ever. More importantly, this issue could have a quick fix, and that's obviously true. But it would require the abolition of certain things, such as Islam, Judaism and the state of Israel. You, like many, are unwilling or unable to see the obvious solution to your destructive ideology--just stop thinking and acting it out. Israel's actions are only contributing to anti-Semitism, just like plenty get turned off from Islam by Muslim terrorists. But you're not interested in history based on evidence. You view history through an ideological lense, and that lense has become a prison, quite literally.

Grandpa h.

[Dieval]

Quote by: HelioPrime Why are we supporting Israel in the first place, for appeasment to our citizens and to snub the arab world which we view as breeding grounds for terrorism?

How is supporting Isreal going to appease our citizens? I'd bet that most of our citizens are indifferent or against Isreali support, just like you.

It still sounds to me like you're preaching appeasement of the arab world.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Yarn But Israel is still violently stealing land. Thats not just something it did 50 years ago, its still doing it today and it has been doing it for 50 years. Further more, Israel, for the sake of its security, impoverishes millions, kills thousands, and gets over a billion Muslims angry at the west.

Nonsense! Go study the history. When Israel obtained additional territory after the 1967 war, it was only after it had miraculously stomped all over the several Arab nations that had attempted to invade Israel (the Arabs initiated the war, not Israel). Then, in 1973 on Judaism's most sacred holy day, the Arabs again tried invading Israel and Israel again miraculously stomped all over them. I will not begrudge them the relatively small amount of land they kept after winning those wars. Besides, there is no such thing as a "Palestinian" people. They do not have a distinct genetic line (distinct from, say, the Arabs), they have never been a geopolitical entity (like, say, Egypt), and many of them came into Israel from places like Jordan following after Yasser Arafat.

In a fine example of America butting its nose where it doesn't belong, Israel gave up essentially 90 percent of the West Bank and entirely pulled out of Gaza because the so-called "Palestinians" made false promises of peace. Yet, the "Palestinians" continue to send women and children into Israel to blow up buses, movie theaters, etc. and continue to lob missiles at Israel.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: HelioPrime Stop supporting Isreal with money or military technology. Make a very public statement about this intention.

No, I think the U. S. should butt out of every nation's internal affairs and go into the arms business. Then let all these countries blow themselves and their neighbors off the map if they want.

Isreal would of course scream betrayl, but other Arab nations would be forced to applaud the US (They use our support of Isreal all the time to incite hatred) It won't stop terrorism, but it will take away a key justification many groups us to confront and explain their attacks on US and allies.

No, Israel would feel free to take actions to defend itself that the United States has been pressuring it not to take.

Of course many jewish americans would be deepy offended, but the problem there is the fact the