"Time makes it right"-Paradox of the continuous longest settlement claim in Palestine

[shrike]

In fact many so called "Palestinians" are arabs from other states that came to land of Israel as Jews started to develop it.
The Smoking Gun: Arab Immigration into Palestine, 1922-1931 - Middle East Quarterly

Therein lies the ideological warfare concerning claims to territorial inheritance and national sovereignty. Contrary to McCarthy's findings or wishes, there is every reason to believe that consequential immigration of Arabs into and within Palestine occurred during the Ottoman and British mandatory periods. Among the most compelling arguments in support of such immigration is the universally acknowledged and practiced linkage between regional economic disparities and migratory impulses. The precise magnitude of Arab immigration into and within Palestine is, as Bachi noted, unknown. Lack of completeness in Ottoman registration lists and British Mandatory censuses, and the immeasurable illegal, unreported, and undetected immigration during both periods make any estimate a bold venture into creative analysis. In most cases, those venturing into the realm of Palestinian demography—or other demographic analyses based on very crude data—acknowledge its limitations and the tentativeness of the conclusions that may be drawn

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[Atlas]

Quote by: grandpa How did that debunk that Palestinians are a mixture of the Canaanites, Philistines, Arabs and even Israelites? It didn't. You can't just look at how some British authors used the term 9which is the part of Wikipedia you quoted) and suggest that encompasses everybody's understanding of what Palestinians as a group identity. Wikipedia again: Palestinian people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Note the difference between this view and that of certain British writers. I think you just want to portray Palestinians as having no roots, like they just came out of nowhere simply to attack Israel. Grandpa h.

The etymology process of "Palestine" and "Palestinians" is a proved fact, mot the opinion of some British author, the "Philistines" article in Wikipedia (your source) never said that, even the word itself is Hebrew, and comes from the Hebrew root of פ.ל.ש meaning to invade or conquer, the original Crete originated Philistines certainly didn't call themselves that, by the same logic of your "unbiased" Arab researchers I could claim that Jews have more Philistine blood in them because their ethnic assimilation and fade of national identity occurred under the presence and rule of Jews\Israelites, way before Arabs came to rule the country, not thats that entitles to any territorial claim because Philistines where confined to a narrow strip of city states along the southern coastline, ruffly the Gaza strip of today.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Atlas The etymology process of "Palestine" and "Palestinians" is a proved fact, mot the opinion of some British author, the "Philistines" article in Wikipedia (your source) never said that, even the word itself is Hebrew, and comes from the Hebrew root of פ.ל.ש meaning to invade or conquer, the original Crete originated Philistines certainly didn't call themselves that, by the same logic of your "unbiased" Arab researchers I could claim that Jews have more Philistine blood in them because their ethnic assimilation and fade of national identity occurred under the presence and rule of Jews\Israelites, way before Arabs came to rule the country, not thats that entitles to any territorial claim because Philistines where confined to a narrow strip of city states along the southern coastline, ruffly the Gaza strip of today.

The claim that the Philistines and the Palestinians has any connection is the anti-semites way of diminishing the Fact that the Jews were their first.

Another popular trick of the anti-semite is to claim that todays Jews have no connections to the Ancient Israelites.

The funny thing is the leftist nutjobs eat it up, because they love to believe anything that is anti-Israel, anti-Jew and anti-American!

[Chancellor]

Quote by: GHook93 The claim that the Philistines and the Palestinians has any connection is the anti-semites way of diminishing the Fact that the Jews were their first. Another popular trick of the anti-semite is to claim that todays Jews have no connections to the Ancient Israelites. The funny thing is the leftist nutjobs eat it up, because they love to believe anything that is anti-Israel, anti-Jew and anti-American!

To many of these people, the notion of ancient Israelites is nothing more than myth. Have you ever noticed that the vast majority of secular textbooks about ancient Middle Eastern civilizations intentionally leave out anything about Israel? It's as if they're trying to say there was no Israel 3000 years ago.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Chancellor To many of these people, the notion of ancient Israelites is nothing more than myth. Have you ever noticed that the vast majority of secular textbooks about ancient Middle Eastern civilizations intentionally leave out anything about Israel? It's as if they're trying to say there was no Israel 3000 years ago.

And the leftist eat it up. They are also still doing it today. In Britian they are taking the Holocaust out of the history books for the sake of the poor ultra-sensitive Muslims. Now that is BS.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Atlas From all I understand your "practical" solution, with all my sympathy to it, to the problem is abolish 2 religions and nationalities simultaneously with no practical plan on how to actually do it.

You can approach the problem from my practical perspective. Stop giving moral support to highly organized religious extremists with nuclear weapons and racist policies.
This may mean Muslims, it may mean Israeli Zionists. You may not actually get through, but it's better than nothing.

Quote by: Atlas The Arab minority within Israel is treated as any minority would in a western nation country and is a subject to the same problems as in those countries in fact and by law. Palestinians on the other hand have their own government to give them the rights they deserve as well as to maintain their duties (like not shooting rockets to neighboring countries) when it fails to do that, the country suffering from this lack of enforcement has the complete right to do whatever it takes to protect its own citizens from the violence caused by this, and the full responsibility for the situation and consequences lies on the same incompetent government.

First of all, Israel is crippling the Palestinian economy. For a supposedly independent government, they sure seem heavily influenced by Israeli policy, almost as if Israel wants to run their lives or even decimate them:
Palestinian economy ever further shackled to Israel: UN - Yahoo! News

And, as for Israeli Arabs, they are in fact discriminated against.
Are Israeli Arabs second-class citizens?

Also, I'll quote a modest example from the following article:
Second-class citizens in their own country - Telegraph
The appointment of Ghaleb Majadla as science minister might have been a moment for celebration among the country's Arab minority, but it also reopened old wounds. You might have expected Right-wing Jewish extremists to be unhappy, but some of the most powerful dissent came from senior Jewish parliamentarians such as Esterina Tartman, who heads the parliamentary bloc of Yisrael Beitenu. This is not a fringe movement: it is a partner in Israel's coalition government. In her view, the appointment of an Israeli Arab minister was a "gigantic axe blow to the tree trunk of Zionism and a Jewish state''.

Another Right-wing MP demanded that the new minister be subjected to extra security vetting because, unlike a Jewish Israeli, he cannot be assumed to be a trusted guardian of the country's scientific knowledge. Amid such hostility, it was not surprising to hear of Israeli Arab unhappiness at their lot. What was surprising was to hear that this unhappiness might crystallise into the biggest danger to the Jewish state.
Yes, minorities are often treated the way Palestinians are, which is precisely why so many hop onto their bandwagon, for better or worse.

And you, because you are on the Israeli bandwagon, bizarrely hint that only Palestinians have conducted indiscriminate bombing.
That's an extreme perversion of truth.
In addition to what Western meddlers have done over the years, Israel has done plenty of damage. Yes, plenty say they have never commit any egregious crimes, but that is standard when it comes to state terrorism. Such hypocrisy is also not surprising for a country that some call "secular" when it isn't. In fact, we have similar problems right now with secularism versus Christianity in the United States.
Some just do not break down and see they are causing their own problems.
Its kind of a case of stupidity all around, whereas you just blame Palestinians for literally everything--much in the tradition of nationalist or religious delusion.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Atlas So your plan is basically to ask us and them nicely to stop ? The problem is almost no Israeli or Palestinian will abandon their indoctrinal national and religious zeal (as strong or weak as it is, but its present in everyone, even such enlightened people such as myself...)

We don't have to ask them nicely. We can push for withdrawing all military aid from either side (though mostly Israel). Such steps should also be applied generally. We should cut off the general flow of US arms around the world.

National or religious zeal is not present in everybody, nor need it be in so many people. But militarism certainly feeds existing nationalist and religious sentiments.
There is a simple principle to consider here: When one side declares they "will hit enemies anywhere," they should expect the declared enemies to react likewise.
That's been my argument all along. It is the practical thing to push for.

Most people change over 10, 20, 30 years. They could change for the better.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Atlas When a one sided cease-fire as you probably suggest will decrease violence on one side of the equation while keeping it the same on the other side, all until the first convinces himself in the uselessness of it, retaliates, most likely with more destructiveness to make up for all the time it stood down, and we've seen it happen just the way I described several times now. Yeah, but most of the ones involved in the debate supports and sympathize far more with the Palestinians, I'm not even talking about that a lot and sometimes most of the Israel supporters are themselves Israelis.

Actually, though you are apparently immune to understanding this: I haven't called for a one-sided anything, and I will not in the future. It'd be interesting if at least one person with Israel on the brain would stop lying about my position.

As for which side is more popular, I primarily see the Israeli side presented, or the right-wing Israeli side, that is. But more important is why people would side with Palestinians. As noted, they are being collectively punished by Israel, and not just in the form of rockets. Any honest person would admit that, and that is why they have whatever level of support they have, including support for terrorism.
Israel's government is clearly more powerful and has had the upper hand for a long time, thanks in part to US support.

If Israel wants to reduce the risk of terrorism, it could stop punishing the general Palestinian population. Palestinians who commit egregious acts of terror should also expect to see conflicts continue.

There it is, my position. I've stated it before numerous times and I'll say it again if I have to.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 Because its not true, Palestinians are the decendents of the ARAB CRUSADERS. Even the Pals will tell you this!

The Palestinian Arab of today is descended from one or a combination of the
following:
The Philistines, the Canaanites and other early tribes, and of the Greeks,
Romans, Arabs, Crusaders, Mongols and Turks.
There are thousands of Greek Palestinians, for example.

"Palestinian" doesn't mean they all have the same exact bloodline or history.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Atlas The etymology process of "Palestine" and "Palestinians" is a proved fact, mot the opinion of some British author, the "Philistines" article in Wikipedia (your source) never said that, even the word itself is Hebrew, and comes from the Hebrew root of פ.ל.ש meaning to invade or conquer, the original Crete originated Philistines certainly didn't call themselves that, by the same logic of your "unbiased" Arab researchers I could claim that Jews have more Philistine blood in them because their ethnic assimilation and fade of national identity occurred under the presence and rule of Jews\Israelites, way before Arabs came to rule the country, not thats that entitles to any territorial claim because Philistines where confined to a narrow strip of city states along the southern coastline, ruffly the Gaza strip of today.

Some Jews very well could have had "impure" blood in their family. It happens. It's history. I'm not doing this to justify ANY side in the conflict, just trying to clue you in on some facts.

Word origins or some British writers do not debunk the fact that Palestinians are of mixed geneology. Armenians also live among the Palestinian population. Sorry, it's the truth.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 And the leftist eat it up. They are also still doing it today. In Britian they are taking the Holocaust out of the history books for the sake of the poor ultra-sensitive Muslims. Now that is BS.

Source please, or even some rough argumentative equivalent. Not saying there is no factual basis, just standard procedure.

Also, pleas explain how ommitting the Holocaust from history books is "Leftist."

Grandpa h.

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa You can approach the problem from my practical perspective. Stop giving moral support to highly organized religious extremists with nuclear weapons and racist policies. This may mean Muslims, it may mean Israeli Zionists. You may not actually get through, but it's better than nothing. First of all, Israel is crippling the Palestinian economy. For a supposedly independent government, they sure seem heavily influenced by Israeli policy, almost as if Israel wants to run their lives or even decimate them: Palestinian economy ever further shackled to Israel: UN - Yahoo! News And, as for Israeli Arabs, they are in fact discriminated against. Are Israeli Arabs second-class citizens? Also, I'll quote a modest example from the following article: Second-class citizens in their own country - Telegraph The appointment of Ghaleb Majadla as science minister might have been a moment for celebration among the country's Arab minority, but it also reopened old wounds. You might have expected Right-wing Jewish extremists to be unhappy, but some of the most powerful dissent came from senior Jewish parliamentarians such as Esterina Tartman, who heads the parliamentary bloc of Yisrael Beitenu. This is not a fringe movement: it is a partner in Israel's coalition government. In her view, the appointment of an Israeli Arab minister was a "gigantic axe blow to the tree trunk of Zionism and a Jewish state''. Another Right-wing MP demanded that the new minister be subjected to extra security vetting because, unlike a Jewish Israeli, he cannot be assumed to be a trusted guardian of the country's scientific knowledge. Amid such hostility, it was not surprising to hear of Israeli Arab unhappiness at their lot. What was surprising was to hear that this unhappiness might crystallise into the biggest danger to the Jewish state. Yes, minorities are often treated the way Palestinians are, which is precisely why so many hop onto their bandwagon, for better or worse. And you, because you are on the Israeli bandwagon, bizarrely hint that only Palestinians have conducted indiscriminate bombing. That's an extreme perversion of truth. In addition to what Western meddlers have done over the years, Israel has done plenty of damage. Yes, plenty say they have never commit any egregious crimes, but that is standard when it comes to state terrorism. Such hypocrisy is also not surprising for a country that some call "secular" when it isn't. In fact, we have similar problems right now with secularism versus Christianity in the United States. Some just do not break down and see they are causing their own problems. Its kind of a case of stupidity all around, whereas you just blame Palestinians for literally everything--much in the tradition of nationalist or religious delusion. Grandpa h.

Right from your article. Nearly 20% want the country that has given them citizenship to be destroyed. How can they not be treated differently?

the number of Arabs who deny Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state increased to 18.4 percent, compared to 6.8 percent in 1995.

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa The Palestinian Arab of today is descended from one or a combination of the following: The Philistines, the Canaanites and other early tribes, and of the Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Crusaders, Mongols and Turks. There are thousands of Greek Palestinians, for example. "Palestinian" doesn't mean they all have the same exact bloodline or history. Grandpa h.

Please stop with your propaganda. The Palestinians are decendents of the Arab Crusaders!

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 Right from your article. Nearly 20% want the country that has given them citizenship to be destroyed.

And why might that be? Maybe because the current government is practicing collective punishment and is discriminatory. Though the views and situations aren't identical,
Malcolm X expressed similar sentiments about the United states:

"I'm not an American. I'm one of the twenty-two million Black people who are the victims of Americanism. One of the 22 million Black people who are the victims of democracy--nothing but disguised hypocrisy. So I'm not standing here speaking to you as an American, or a patriot, or a flag-saluter, or a flag-waver--no, not I. I'm speaking as a victim of this American system. And I see America through the eyes of the victim. I don't see any American dream; I see an American nightmare."

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 Please stop with your propaganda. The Palestinians are decendents of the Arab Crusaders!

So you are denying that any of the other groups I mentioned integrated with the Palestinians. Classic!:rolleyes:

Grandpa h.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Have to agree with Gramps, claiming the palestineans are all of european origin is very much like claiming all the Israelis are europeans.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Have to agree with Gramps, claiming the palestineans are all of european origin is very much like claiming all the Israelis are europeans.

Also, the big three organised religions are not entirely involving one region or ethnic origin.

In any case, Zionists, just like certain Muslim radicals, want their interpretation of reality to be the only one. This is harmful.

Here is another story to explain why Palestinians might be angry:

RIGHTS: Call to Halt EU Trade with Israel

Eoin Murray from the Irish anti-poverty organisation Trcaire said that the EU has become "a subcontractor for the occupation" of Palestine and that the Union's Rafah mission should be abandoned... "Opening Rafah is essential to open people's minds and end the suffocation of Gaza. At the moment, if you have cancer in Gaza you will just die because the Israelis will not allow you to cross to Egypt for radiological treatment." Murray called on the Union to rethink the willingness it has shown to repair civilian infrastructure, including schools and hospitals, destroyed by Israel. The European Commission has estimated that 44 million euros (60 million dollars) worth of damage has been done by Israel to EU-funded projects in the Palestinian territories. "The EU has picked up the tab for Israel," he said. "The EU has paid for reconstruction and never asked for a penny back. It has allowed Israel to ignore its responsibilities under international law."

Grandpa h.