"Time makes it right"-Paradox of the continuous longest settlement claim in Palestine

[Atlas]

Quote by: Yarn And similarly, while it may be permissable in some cases to just live and let live, and (given enough time passed, and enough practical concerns) forget that land is stolen, as I proved with my articles earlier, Israel is still stealing land. Is not theft wrong? Or do you not share that belief ?

Again, the whole point of the Palestinian claim is "Yes, it's OK to "steal" land, as long as you live here long enough, say 1300 years, that way the previous owners have no right to claim it back", what I'm asking is, why shouldn't the Jews exercise the Palestinian logic of the claim and say "OK, we "stole" our land back, now we should do everything within our power, no matter how brutal or inhumane, to ensure our sovereign and demographic control of this here land for the next couple of hundred years and then the Arab would be the ones that have no right to claim it back by the power of their own claim for it because we are the ones now who have been here for quite a while".

Quote by: Yarn The Arabs 1300 years ago, are not the same Arabs who possess these lands today, and these Arabs are entirely innocent from the crime of land theft.

So all the Jews have to do is wait a couple of generations before the "sins" of their ancestors will be washed by time, my point exacly.

Quote by: Yarn This idea of an millenia jumping eye for an eye conflict, justifying stealing land from innocents, is barbaric.

OK, but the deed has allready been done a couple of times, the fact that the Jews commited this "barbaric" act last is not an excuse to do it again
and forcefuly displace the millions which are the Jewish majority of Israel, or even the west bank settlements for all that matters.

Quote by: Yarn Israel is not poor and its population is not growing greatly, let it buy the land it wants to expand to encompass,

Guess what ? Some of us are not rich either, I personaly cannot spare any shekels for a new place here, let alone anywhere else in the world.


I'm sure if Jews wanted to settle in any other land but Israel they would probably have done it by now, we didn't just spin the globe around at the beginning of the previous century and came to settle to the first piece of land our finger stopped, you know, I'm getting tired to explain that point over time.

Quote by: Yarn or if such land is not for sale, then let it live on and use well the plentiful and rich land it already owns.

Again, why is Israeli land after 48' is so much different than the land added to it in 67' both already had Jewish settlements in it both where achnowleged by a cease fire agreement, Ironicaly the PA territory today is roughly the core of the Jewish and Israelite kingdoms there in ancient times, with the most national and religious value, if Israel had pressed on in the war of 48' and gained\occupied\freed\retaken those teritorries before 67' would it be more legitimate (as Israel's current post 48' border with the PA) for it to control and further settle in them them ? the borders before 67' are nothing more than where the troops and tanks of either side stopped to advance, and the legitimacy of the borders is based almost merely on that.

Quote by: Yarn So whats your point? That does not refute the fact that this man's great grandmother bought the property, and that it was his, until the state of Israel stole it, without giving just compensation which it was perfectly capable of bestowing.

My real (relevant) point is that he's no different than the Jew who lived in Jerusalem in the time of the Roman, and later Arab conquests, they had no disregard for his life , let alone his rights to the land, if we are to take into acount that then humans where barbarians and now we are more enlightened and civilized then we must also take into acount that back than it was the Arab chaliphate controlling the land under its citizens feet and now it is the state of Israel,
perhaps the specific example could be handled more humanley and I am not saying such injustices never occure, but in general, the modern state that has an obligation to treat its citizens and other residents within the boundaries of international law, even on a supposed occupied territory, should expect some sort of respect from them for upholding that law, even when it has the power not to.


I think the economic and demographic growth of the Arab population in the PA and Israel itself since the middle of the previous century compared to the populations of the Arab world speaks for itself that such examples of misstreatment are relatively rare.

Quote by: Yarn I would state that it would appear obvious to me the biggest thing preventing Israel from obtaining peace, and the biggest thing preventing it from obtaining amicable relations with its neighboors, is the resentment and hatred it recieves for the flagrant selfishness, and disresprect for all human life but its own,

The peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan had been relatively prosperous although I'm quite tired of pointing out the same facts over and over, a standing proof to all those so called anti-Zionists out there that a long term peace with Israel is not impossible, while I had some vacations in the Sinai a few years back, great place to chill out :)

[Atlas]

Quote by: Yarn it exhibits, via its continous strangling of the economies of millions, its continuous stealing of property, its repeated out proportion humanitarian disaster creating responses to minute threats, which produce for example, hundreds to over a thousand deaths, and up to millions of refugees...

It does what it has to keep its territory and its citizens safe, and I don't see any other logical reasons for Israels actions weather theyr'e considered justified or even commonly sensible in the long run (believe me, I have enough criticism about my current government), true, there is civilian damage and casualties, but any country would put the safety of it's own citizens above the safety of others to some point, there is nothing sinister in that, it's common sence, any kind of restrain or caution that Israel shows is automatically translated with more Israeli civilians being killed, yet there are no news flashes like "Today the IDF didn't bomb Gaza" or whatever, it seems there is no sence in it, yet time after time I see terror acts unretaliated, I bet if I will put New York under the same daily routine as the towns surrounding the Gaza strip the US would invade Iran in 3 days or so, yet all we can do out here is bite our lips most of the time.

Quote by: Yarn I mean what person on Earth wouldn't hate you if you did all of that to his people?

Well, there was the holocaust and you dont see Israel invading Germany any time soon.


Sure, Hate is understandable between two peoples fighting for the same piece of land, especialy if one group wins but the other is still there, it's common sence that not Israel and especialy not the Palestinians are going to achieve anything else through force and terror, that should preveil over hatred eventualy.

Quote by: Yarn The religious element is a slogan, but it is not the primary motivator, has not been for a long time.

Well, I wish I could share your optimism but Islamic fundamentalism is becoming stronger than ever over the past few year, with Iran as the main sponsor Gaza had already fallen to the radical Islam, the secular Palestinian authority is weaker than ever, not to mention Hezbollah slowly taking over lebanon and the Shi'a uprisings in Iraq, perhaps its true that the economic factor of the recent conflicts in those regions had something to do with it, and I'm even sure that if it was possible Israel would remove all those roadblocks and grant all those working passes in those relatively quiet tims to save the Palestinian crumbling economy from total collapse, but all it takes is one fanatic 20kg of explosives and 50 dead Israelis to get right back where we started, except now 50 people are dead plus about the same amount of Palestinians if you don't count the terrorists, so better safe then sorry, that's the short-sighted and short-term scenario.

Quote by: Yarn Look at how peaceful muslims in America are. You want to know why? Because they have decent lives.

Yes, it's amazing how a house in the suburbs and a fat paycheck can sometimes cure the deepest religious extremism, but it too has a limit, for the obvious you cant move all the Palestinians to the US voluntarily or involuntarily nor the Jews for that matter, secondly even western lifestyle can't change everything, with the growing Muslim communities in Europe and the US terrorist cells grow like mushrooms, not to mention that it doesn't take much for Israel to do for thousands of demonstrators to burn Israeli flags, shouting death to Israel like madmen.

Quote by: grandpa Why should Israel deprive them of rights (which is exactly what Israel is doing)?

Again I point out to the "ugly" truth of security, the fastest way to eliminate a current threat is by military action, anything that doesn't involve it like diplomatic solutions may resault in longer terms of peace and quiet, but eventualy are much more risky in the short term, its that simple.

Quote by: grandpa Whatever. Plenty of people care when Jews die.

The point is most of the people care mostly about Palestinian casualties, because of the fact that the Jews have enough firepower to blast the Palestinians to smitherines for a change, they'll never have the same sympathy the Palestinians enjoy, and it is quite proven over this forum as well, and unless we change from M-16's to slingshots and die a little bit more that ain't gonna change.

Quote by: grandpa What you are forgetting is that Israel does not represent all Jews, nor could it ever.

Well it represents most of them.

Quote by: grandpa More importantly, this issue could have a quick fix, and that's obviously true. But it would require the abolition of certain things, such as Islam, Judaism and the state of Israel. You, like many, are unwilling or unable to see the obvious solution to your destructive ideology--just stop thinking and acting it out. Israel's actions are only contributing to anti-Semitism, just like plenty get turned off from Islam by Muslim terrorists. But you're not interested in history based on evidence. You view history through an ideological lense, and that lense has become a prison, quite literally.

Again, I would love to live in your happy tree world, seriously, even with the obvious notes of sarcasm, but if I were to drive to Gaza now wearing a poncho and flowers in my hair you'll probably probably see my corpse on the news tommorow, together with the only hippie Palestinian dude in the west bank that had the same crazy idea and tried to cross the fence at night. I'm an all out anti-nationalist and generally atheist but as long as there are countries and nations in this world, I'm ready to defend mine.
Verbaly and physically.


Man, that took a long time, I'll probably will answer the actuall arguments that are relevant to the tread from now on.

[Yarn]

Again, the whole point of the Palestinian claim is "Yes, it's OK to "steal" land, as long as you live here long enough, say 1300 years, that way the previous owners have no right to claim it back", what I'm asking is, why shouldn't the Jews exercise the Palestinian logic of the claim and say "OK, we "stole" our land back, now we should do everything within our power, no matter how brutal or inhumane, to ensure our sovereign and demographic control of this here land for the next couple of hundred years and then the Arab would be the ones that have no right to claim it back by the power of their own claim for it because we are the ones now who have been here for quite a while".

The land was never stolen from you. That goes to every Israeli alive.

You never stole any land. That goes to every Palestinian alive.

It is not right for the living to reap the reward or punishments deserved to the long dead.

Yes, if you take the land, your ancestors will have it via no sin of their own, and the ancestors of the Palestinians will not have any proper claim of deserving it somehow.

Stealing the land is evil. None of your arguement changes that fact one iota. You commit evil against innocents, for personal, and ethnic gain. The sin may not be passed on to your kids, but it will forever be in your possession.

Why shouldn't the US, try to restrain you from conducting.evil?

Well, there was the holocaust and you dont see Israel invading Germany any time soon.

I am certain that the jews hated Hitler and Nazis, and still do.

Sure, Hate is understandable between two peoples fighting for the same piece of land, especialy if one group wins but the other is still there, it's common sence that not Israel and especialy not the Palestinians are going to achieve anything else through force and terror, that should preveil over hatred eventualy.

Israel hasn't had to fight for its existence for decades. The stakes are much lower (Quassam rockets, are worth destroying Gaza's biggest generator over?) Israel can afford to stop using as much force and terror as it does. If it wants stop the cycle, it needs to cease creating wounds, and start healing them. This will take a long time, and will never be done completely, but it is the right thing thing to pursue, and the only sensible thing to pursue, if Israel wants peace.

Well, I wish I could share your optimism but Islamic fundamentalism is becoming stronger than ever over the past few year, with Iran as the main sponsor Gaza had already fallen to the radical Islam, the secular Palestinian authority is weaker than ever, not to mention Hezbollah slowly taking over lebanon and the Shi'a uprisings in Iraq, perhaps its true that the economic factor of the recent conflicts in those regions had something to do with it, and I'm even sure that if it was possible Israel would remove all those roadblocks and grant all those working passes in those relatively quiet tims to save the Palestinian crumbling economy from total collapse, but all it takes is one fanatic 20kg of explosives and 50 dead Israelis to get right back where we started, except now 50 people are dead plus about the same amount of Palestinians if you don't count the terrorists, so better safe then sorry, that's the short-sighted and short-term scenario.

You invaded Lebanon, we invaded Iraq. Very few don't directly correlate those two things, to the surge in terrorism. Thus, it would appear that the cause is non-religious.

Terrorism can't be destroyed completely by good behaviour from its targets, because Islam I think does ensure some level of terrorism. Nevertheless, the problem would be greatly diminished were wiser about what our force can and cannot do, and what blowback its use is liable to create.

Yes, it's amazing how a house in the suburbs and a fat paycheck can sometimes cure the deepest religious extremism, but it too has a limit, for the obvious you cant move all the Palestinians to the US voluntarily or involuntarily nor the Jews for that matter, secondly even western lifestyle can't change everything, with the growing Muslim communities in Europe and the US terrorist cells grow like mushrooms, not to mention that it doesn't take much for Israel to do for thousands of demonstrators to burn Israeli flags, shouting death to Israel like madmen.

The US lets in very few Muslim immigrants today.

Addressing religion directly, no offense, but i've read your holy book, and it hardly seems like a great book of morals. I think it might have a fair amount to do with what I criticize Israel for.

That having been said, Muslims are plenty bad to, though they are probably more pious, defenitely more missionary, and they have more to be upset about.

I would not deny that 95-99% of muslims, will always prefer Israel didn't exist. Israel however, common sense tells us, is not going away any time soon, and some muslims listen to common sense. I think a lot more would, if Israel would stop going crazy whenever it was hit by some small insignificant attack. It is difficult to listen to common sense, when your brain is being bombarded by outrage.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Atlas That's why I'm implying some Palestinians and maybe most of them wouldn't be so satisfied with the magical solution of Israeli total withdrawal to the 67' borders, look above.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict does not have magic solutions, but practical ones of the kind I have described. On the present course, nothing will be solved, and I'm not living in a "fantasy world" for pointing that out, though you express that sentiment later in your post.

Quote by: Atlas The ones you reffer to as Palestinians are either Arab Israelis with full rights and citizenship (within the borders of 48') or citizens of the PA (within the 67' borders) with PA responsible (unresponsibly, I might say) for their rights and duties.

The minorities within the arrangement are oppressed. You leave that out.

Quote by: Atlas The terrorism was there before the fence, thats why they are building it, not the other way around, and Israel never supported South African apartheid, the close relations that existed between the two countries at the time was thanks to the mere fact that they where both diplomatically isolated at the time, I won't even get in to compairing the two, well... mostly because this is not the topic of this thread, unfortunately, so is everyother topic brought up here except the one on the first post, but never mind that, it got out of my hands very quickly.

here is some information on Israel and South African Apartheid:
http://www.endtheoccupation.org/down...ections%20.pdf

The connections weren't as tenuous as you make them out to be.

here's another link:
Brothers in arms - Israel's secret pact with Pretoria | Israel and the Middle East | Guardian Unlimited

How is this off-topic? We're discussing Israel and Palestine, and this type of apartheid relationship is proof enough that Israel doesn't shy away from endorsing racist policies. Presumably, it's another reason some Palestinians would want to rise up and kill the Israeli tyrant.

Quote by: Atlas There is a lot of truth to this simingly ignorrant statement of our former prime minister, the "Palestinians" of today had no distinct national identity until the rise of Zionism and the Jewish resettlement of Israel began, they where simply Arabs living in Palestine, by the irony of faith the struggle for independence of one nation formed another one.

There is very little truth to his words whatsoever. Back then I believe palestinians were called "Phillistines." That's the only difference. So it doens't just seem ignorant, it is ignorant.

Philistines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In fact, if you wanted, you could say the Palestinians lack a distinct identity now. It would make just as much sense.
And sure enough, there is no absolutely universal identity. There are possibly other representations of "Palestinians" one can dream up, as such a discussion is limited only to teh imagination.
But that doesn't mean people bearing that name are not living in or around Israel, and that Israel doesn't regard them all as second-class people to push around.
There are better options than dismissing the existence of Arabs at that time period. But a certain PM realized his policies could not stand unless he lied and said ignorant things.

And, again, I'm not suggesting jews or Christians living inside or outside Islamic countries never get harassed. I must also stress that.

Quote by: Atlas Boy... wouldn't that be a blast, unfortunateley we do not live in TeleTubbie land yet, as long as there are more insane than sane people in the world ( and by that I mean any hardcore nationalists, religious fanatics or corporate tycoons) this won't change by a bit.

No one seems to want to accept the obvious: The solutions I proposed are the ONLY ones that are almsot guaranteed to work. There is nothing "dreamland" about it.
It's not the reckless, religion-addled nonsense that plagues the Middle East now, sure. But it's more realistic, not less. If peopel want more stupidity and death, they'll cling to business as usual. If they want change, they'll halt the religious and state-sanctioned terrorism. That's not some fantasy solution, but the only reality-based one. I'm not going to feel stupid for advocating it, because the need for it crystal clear. It's not simply a "gut feeling" or a utopian vision, but the only one that would seem to work.

Quote by: Atlas You suppose unstable Muslim countries should have them as well then ?

I was merely pointing out the irony that the only nation which actually used nukes is telling others not to develop nuclear programs. That's a pretty glaring hypocrisy. It's also hypocritical when this same nation is developing more nuclear weapons, which presumably could still get sold, traded, lost or stolen.
Also, Israel has nuclear weapons.

My personal view is that no one should have them, but that's another "fairytale" view that no one seems to heed.

For someone who seems to distrust hardcore nationalists, religious fanatics and tycoons, you sure seem to be copying your answers straight from their playbooks.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Atlas Again I point out to the "ugly" truth of security, the fastest way to eliminate a current threat is by military action, anything that doesn't involve it like diplomatic solutions may resault in longer terms of peace and quiet, but eventualy are much more risky in the short term, its that simple.

You call it "security," but it could more accurately be called "tyranny." And it certainly is ugly.
And the fastest way to eliminate a military threat is by terrorist action (though the corpses notice no difference between militarism and terrorism).

In your sheer fantasy world (not my alleged one), deliberation is more risky than militarism.

Keep in mind we're not just talking about views, but of functions. And a simple function in terms of warfare may assume the value of mass destruction and retaliation
ad infinitum. that's what we're currently seeing.

Quote by: Atlas The point is most of the people care mostly about Palestinian casualties, because of the fact that the Jews have enough firepower to blast the Palestinians to smitherines for a change, they'll never have the same sympathy the Palestinians enjoy, and it is quite proven over this forum as well, and unless we change from M-16's to slingshots and die a little bit more that ain't gonna change.

Yes, some people side with the Palestinians in Volconvo, but clearly not everyone.
In fact, I don't consider myself as taking sides, though Israel is clearly more detsructive in its efforts, for reasons you have just noted.
More generally, though, how can you prove that people care more about Palestinian casualties, at least in the US, where virtually any action Israel takes is defended?
In fact, even basic critcisms of Israel are often deemed "anti-Semitic." That's a clear sign of Israeli sympathy.

Again, this is not to say Israel's actions have not fed anti-Semitic attitudes. That's clearly the case, and predictable like so much else. Most everyone has heard the stereotype of Jews controlling western media, for example. People believe such things for a variety of reasons, but one is American media's overwhelming bias toward Israel. Similarly, one could peruse Usenet and find people using expressions such as "Islamic sandmonkey," "Palesimian" or "Dune coon."

Israel certainly does have enough firepower to blast these "sandmonkeys" to smithereens, and they haven't been shy of demonstrating this power. Nor has Israel shied away from strangling the Palestinians economically while perversely referring to them as an independent people. How are they even vaguely independent when virtually any action Israel takes affects them, and overwhelmingly disastrously?

The closest thing to a moral defense Israel has is firepower to target the enemy.
And,. sure enough, that's what sympathy for Israel basically entails--more military hardware. I don't have the slightest satisfaction with this kind of "security" and the terrorism is breeds.

Quote by: Atlas Well it represents most of them.

In your opinion, though there are enough Jews--including Israeli Jews--that would disagree.

Quote by: Atlas Again, I would love to live in your happy tree world, seriously, even with the obvious notes of sarcasm, but if I were to drive to Gaza now wearing a poncho and flowers in my hair you'll probably probably see my corpse on the news tommorow, together with the only hippie Palestinian dude in the west bank that had the same crazy idea and tried to cross the fence at night. I'm an all out anti-nationalist and generally atheist but as long as there are countries and nations in this world, I'm ready to defend mine. Verbaly and physically.

yet again, my view is not based on fantasy, but a practical course of action currently regarded as untouchable options. But I want you to consider why it is untouchable. It has more to do with the fantasies of others than with the reality on the ground. Accepting business as usual (and it is profitable to certain people) is not all we can do now. We can advocate another direction. It's not necessarily the "hippie" thing to do (another buzzword to distract the discussion), but the rational one.

And you are not at all "anti-nationalist." You are advocating precisely what nationalism stands for, verbally and physically. Also, you are representing exactly what the religious fanatics want: legitimacy granted to their physically violent visions.

Quote by: Atlas Man, that took a long time, I'll probably will answer the actuall arguments that are relevant to the tread from now on.

Again, how is this discussion not relevant? That's what I hate about debate forums. Whenever you get somewhere someone calls you "irrelevant." I'm not sure what that accomplishes, but it apparently satisfies some people.

Grandpa h.

[Atlas]

Quote by: Yarn The land was never stolen from you. That goes to every Israeli alive. You never stole any land. That goes to every Palestinian alive. It is not right for the living to reap the reward or punishments deserved to the long dead. Yes, if you take the land, your ancestors will have it via no sin of their own, and the ancestors of the Palestinians will not have any proper claim of deserving it somehow. Stealing the land is evil. None of your arguement changes that fact one iota. You commit evil against innocents, for personal, and ethnic gain. The sin may not be passed on to your kids, but it will forever be in your possession.

So in another 100 years it would be illegitimate for the sons of the Palestinians today to demand a return to the land of their fathers and grandfathers because that land is by now inhabited by the descendants of the Jews who supposedly stole it but they themselves had done no wrong, by that logic Israel shouldn't return or evacuate any land or settlement because it would be legitimate in a few decades anyways.


Jordan and Egypt controlled the west bank, Gaza and easter Jerusalem before 67', the same territories that are now the core of the Palestinian demand, why didn't they give their fellow Arab Palestinians independence back then ? They had no "legitimate" right for holding it as their own, so the independence they didn't get from their friends they somehow manage to slowly squeeze from their relatively enlightened enemies even when it has far more religious and national value to Israel than than to Jordan or Egypt, the logical thing that Israel should have done by the same logic once the "land stealing" deed is already done is to hold it enough time until the legitimacy of owning it officially transfers itself to you or your descendants, can't you see the paradox of the Palestinian claim once the same logic of it is used to support Israeli hold on any land they had conquered ?

By that stealing land is evil but not giving it back is perfectly OK, so if you already successfully "stole", just keep it and it will be yours eventually.

Either this is true and the land owner should eventually be the one who controls it, in this case the Jews, or

The land belong to whoever was here first and longest, and who is still ethnically alive to claim it no matter who controls it now, lets go back through the time line shall we - Britain, the Turks, the Arabs, the crusaders, the Arabs again, the Romans (they're extinct already), aah... the Jews.

Quote by: Yarn Why shouldn't the US, try to restrain you from conducting.evil?

Well because we have a privilege of having it as an ally (quite a smart choice for the US, no matter what others may say, but that's a debate for another time), so we have to do some serious shit to change that, not to mention how serious those things should be for the US to take any military action against Israel, all I'm saying here that what perceives to be by some (and mostly falsely) as the most inhumane actions by Israel, we could much much worse (for the Palestinian and better for ourselves) and still "get away with it", yet we don't.

Quote by: Yarn I am certain that the jews hated Hitler and Nazis, and still do.

Yes, but in time we (at least most of us) learned to reason that hatred, and not to direct it against all the Germans of today, as the Palestinians should (and some probably are) don't hate all Jews and Israelis just for who they are, because that hatred won't lead them anywhere better, just as it wouldn't do us much good to hate all the Germans today.

Quote by: Yarn Israel hasn't had to fight for its existence for decades. The stakes are much lower (Quassam rockets, are worth destroying Gaza's biggest generator over?) Israel can afford to stop using as much force and terror as it does. If it wants stop the cycle, it needs to cease creating wounds, and start healing them. This will take a long time, and will never be done completely, but it is the right thing thing to pursue, and the only sensible thing to pursue, if Israel wants peace.

Israel tried the non-retaliation policy several times now, but no matter how long they last there will be always someone on the Palestinian side to break them 1, 5, 10 Rockets, Bombings, Shootings 10, 20, 50 Israelis dead without retaliation, eventually it fuels the sense of some Israelis that the their current government is unable to protect their lives, which only creates more radicalism in Israeli society, which democratically transformers itself to a more radical government, and eventually increases the violence on both sides, the rise of the right winged government in 2001 and its grasp on power since then is a direct result of Arafat's second intifada, moderate retaliation is the only humane way to keep the Israeli public opinion and its current relatively balanced (though not that well preforming...) government from sliding further right, everybody says the Palestinians only react to Israels actions, well, it's not a one way street, the severity of the military actions are defined by the orders of the current government, which democratically reflect the reaction of the Israeli public to the same Palestinian terrorism, we have our fanatics too you know, and unlike with the Palestinians, they are on both sides of the political rainbow.

[Atlas]

Quote by: Yarn You invaded Lebanon, we invaded Iraq. Very few don't directly correlate those two things, to the surge in terrorism. Thus, it would appear that the cause is non-religious.

As I said I do not deny there is a possible connection and fundamentalists thrive in times of conflict, but it's not like those religious fanatics weren't there before, they where just waiting (and in the case of Israel initiating) for the next conflict to round more supporters for their cause, every Muslim country from Morocco to Indonesia is infested with them, though most of those countries have a stable enough government and a relatively good economical status to keep them and their possible supporters at bay through social and law enforcing means.

Quote by: Yarn Terrorism can't be destroyed completely by good behaviour from its targets, because Islam I think does ensure some level of terrorism. Nevertheless, the problem would be greatly diminished were wiser about what our force can and cannot do, and what blowback its use is liable to create.

True, though total unretaliatory apathy to the problem of terrorism and the acceptance of even some of the terrorists demands would not only not vanquish terrorism from the planet but will encourage it to grow, many Palestinians attribute Israels signing of the Oslo accords to the terrorist acts of the first intifada, as well as the cease fire in Lebanon and the IDF retreat to the rocket bombing of the Israeli northern towns by Hezbollah, I'm sure that as soon as the US pulls out of Iraq some fanatics will use it as a propaganda victory as well, if Israel gives in to more Palestinian demands while it is under constant attack from terrorists it will surely be seen as if terrorism had worked once again, and thus gain more support, bringing a third intifada with it, that's why the only agreements and any seedings of territory to the Palestinians must be done with a total cease fire from both sides, and that could only happened, when the Palestinian government is strong enough to disarm its own citizens and enforce the law on its own territory, Israel solved the same internal problem swiftly and brutally with the Altalena affair back in 48', the Palestinian government must find the strength to do the same thing now for the sake of peace.

Quote by: Yarn The US lets in very few Muslim immigrants today.

Maybe they are not a large percent in the US but about 3 million is still a large number, and they sure can scream very loud in those protests as soon as Israel had done something "bad", this "reversed colonization" is sure much worse in western Europe, in France they are almost 10% of the population and growing rapidly, not to mention the over-liberal laws there allows them to maintain quite a lot of the initial fanaticism of some of them.

Quote by: Yarn Addressing religion directly, no offense, but i've read your holy book, and it hardly seems like a great book of morals. I think it might have a fair amount to do with what I criticize Israel for.

Non taken, I am not a religious person and Israel is not a religious state so your criticism of the bible is irrelevant, though their a lot of BS in the bible as there is in its Cristian add-on (the new testament) and the Quraan (a lousy rip-off of them both, but that is just my opinion) I think we can take a little national pride for being the first nation to come up with any kind of written moral standard and the duty to enforce it.

Quote by: Yarn That having been said, Muslims are plenty bad to, though they are probably more pious, defenitely more missionary, and they have more to be upset about. I would not deny that 95-99% of muslims, will always prefer Israel didn't exist. Israel however, common sense tells us, is not going away any time soon, and some muslims listen to common sense.

At least something I could totally agree with.

Quote by: Yarn I think a lot more would, if Israel would stop going crazy whenever it was hit by some small insignificant attack. It is difficult to listen to common sense, when your brain is being bombarded by outrage.

When people are being killed or are at a real danger of being killed it doesn't matter what is their weapons or how often can you do it, when people die, get wounded or could be dead if they where in the time and place of the attack it will never be "small and insignificant" one, and if we should be to enlightened to retaliate for the obvious sake of revenge then for the sake of future prevention of such acts, and as with fighting all terrorist groups that deeply entrenched themselves within the local population and sometimes enjoys their support it's statistically impossible for civilians not to get hurt in one way or another, not that I'm saying there aren't over-proportioned, mistakenly or not, but Israel has at least the ability to control the severity of their actions well below their full capacity when with terrorists it's never bellow maximum not to mention their pursuit for the easiest kill which limits them mostly to innocent civilians.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Atlas True, though total unretaliatory apathy to the problem of terrorism and the acceptance of even some of the terrorists demands would not only not vanquish terrorism from the planet but will encourage it to grow, many Palestinians attribute Israels signing of the Oslo accords to the terrorist acts of the first intifada, as well as the cease fire in Lebanon and the IDF retreat to the rocket bombing of the Israeli northern towns by Hezbollah, I'm sure that as soon as the US pulls out of Iraq some fanatics will use it as a propaganda victory as well, if Israel gives in to more Palestinian demands while it is under constant attack from terrorists it will surely be seen as if terrorism had worked once again, and thus gain more support, bringing a third intifada with it, that's why the only agreements and any seedings of territory to the Palestinians must be done with a total cease fire from both sides, and that could only happened, when the Palestinian government is strong enough to disarm its own citizens and enforce the law on its own territory, Israel solved the same internal problem swiftly and brutally with the Altalena affair back in 48', the Palestinian government must find the strength to do the same thing now for the sake of peace.

The connection between radical religion and conflict is one reason to oppose both.
People have, quite reasonably, been protesting the collective punishments Israel imposes for the acts of a few.
In fact, those with power often behave this way and face protests.

Israel's collective punishements only enhance terrorism. Sharon should have known this very well, as should any other Israel planner. It's also an emerging possibility that the US will step up its efforts on the African continent, due to some there who deal diamonds and launder money in support of Lebanon's Hezbollah. But there is no evidence whatsoever that the same old behavior will bring about different results. But the US will keep intervening and stretch things out, obviously with a lack of active Arab support (after all, they keep getting attacked).

Meanwhile, people will still overlook how a flurry of Israeli rockets is not less destructive than Palestinian rockets, and how the US is generally flooding the arms market to contribute to the various losing sides.
Because of this, people will stupidly conclude they are strong because they stick togather and commit acts of terrorism and keep the cycle going, while hypocritically charging the others must pay
for their aggression. It's the same old nonsense, and it's profitable to some who do not give a damn.

Grandpa h.

[Dieval]

Quote by: grandpa Meanwhile, people will still overlook how a flurry of Israeli rockets is not less destructive than Palestinian rockets,

What do you mean by this? Should the people of Isreal allow themselves to be pummeled by rockets because Isreal's weaponry is more advanced than that of their enemy?

[Mia]

Quote by: GHook93 Wrong Israel is giving it back! :rolleyes:

FINALLY they are. Up to just a few months ago they were doing the opposite.

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa The Israeli-Palestinian conflict does not have magic solutions, but practical ones of the kind I have described. On the present course, nothing will be solved, and I'm not living in a "fantasy world" for pointing that out, though you express that sentiment later in your post.

Yet you will put sole blame on Israel

QUOTE=grandpa The minorities within the arrangement are oppressed. You leave that out

.

You leave out the most the Israeli Arabs live better than Muslim Arabs in throughout the M.E., especially Iran.

here is some information on Israel and South African Apartheid: http://www.endtheoccupation.org/down...ections%20.pdf

Nice propaganda sources. You can't compare the 2. Israel has more Muslims in their government than all theMuslim countries (exlcuding Lebanon) have Christian, Jews or Buddhist combined. But you will conveniently forget that.

QUOTE=grandpa How is this off-topic? We're discussing Israel and Palestine, and this type of apartheid relationship is proof enough that Israel doesn't shy away from endorsing racist policies. Presumably, it's another reason some Palestinians would want to rise up and kill the Israeli tyrant.

Gaza and the W.B. aren't part of Israel.

QUOTE=grandpa There is very little truth to his words whatsoever. Back then I believe palestinians were called "Phillistines." That's the only difference. So it doens't just seem ignorant, it is ignorant.

Wrong wrong wrong! God get a history lesson. The Phillistines have absolutely nothing to do with the Palestinians. The Phillistines was an ancient enemy of the Israelis. You can recall David and Goliath (Goliath was the Phillistines). The Phillistines are a long extinct tribe.

The current Palestinians are decendents of the Arab Crusaders that under the direction the Prophet War-lord conquered the Palestine.

Palestinian received its name from the Romans, well after the Death of Christ. It was give as punishment for the 2nd Jewish Revolt.

There is absolutely no connections between the Phillistines and the Palestines. The the baseless connection is used as a way to try to diminish the claim that the Jews were in Israel first.

Nice try though.

QUOTE=grandpa And, again, I'm not suggesting jews or Christians living inside or outside Islamic countries never get harassed. I must also stress that.

Yet that is only one you stress! :rolleyes:

[ No one seems to want to accept the obvious: The solutions I proposed are the ONLY ones that are almsot guaranteed to work. There is nothing "dreamland" about it.

You also propose Anarchy! I think your view falls easily into unrealistic as best.

B]QUOTE=grandpa [/b]I was merely pointing out the irony that the only nation which actually used nukes is telling others not to develop nuclear programs. That's a pretty glaring hypocrisy. It's also hypocritical when this same nation is developing more nuclear weapons, which presumably could still get sold, traded, lost or stolen.

The hyprocritical or not a regime like Iran should never have nukes!

QUOTE=grandpaAlso, Israel has nuclear weapons.

Constantly attacked and threaten by her larger and crazier neighbors, the only smart thing she could do is develop nukes.

QUOTE=grandpaMy personal view is that no one should have them, but that's another "fairytale" view that no one seems to heed.

In a perfect world then maybe, but not in the real world.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dieval What do you mean by this? Should the people of Isreal allow themselves to be pummeled by rockets because Isreal's weaponry is more advanced than that of their enemy?

My words and my point was simple. Israeli deaths are no more tragic than palestinian ones. If Israel wasn't so keen on punishing Palestinians as a group, they wouldn't have as many enemies.

Grandpa h.