Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

**Sean** · Oct 18, 2003, 11:16 pm

I must say I respect the guy. I've looked into him quite a bit, and I think he's very promissing. He's a fresh face in the democratic party, which desparately needs one. I was watching some of his interviews on deanforamerica.com, and liked where he wanted to go with the country.

What's your take on the man, and his ideas?

RebelWithanAK · Oct 19, 2003, 12:35 am

Bad:
- Vermont is not a hard place to run. It has no race relations to speak of, no troubles with heath coverage or welfare or affordable housing, no real principle democratic issues to speak of. Most of the people there are White and comfortably well off.
- Barely any voting record. The guy doesn't have a voting record on many of the aforementioned issues, nor on gay rights or the like. He'll never be called a career politician, but he's won't exactly be considered experienced either.
- He's a northerner. The last president north of the Mason-Dixon line to be elected was JFK.

Good:
- He's the most electable candidate. I'd much rather Al Sharpton, but I'm sure the majority of this nation would rather surrender to the Chinese than elect a Black man.
- He's as leftist a Democrat as we need. Gore's main losing point was not being left enough, and we certainly don't need no Clarks or Liebermans (spit!!!).

Impenitent · Oct 19, 2003, 01:06 am

dean will get elected by the base and we'll have a replay of 1984...

don't worry about clark, the peacenik wing of the democrats will never let him get elected...

as far as the ideas of the party, well the economics of the democrats are over... there are too many investors in the stock market today, too many citizens who understand how the stock market and the economy works... the days of tax and spend liberalism are over and that is all the democrat party knows...
not to mention the abysmal record on military and intelligence spending that is the hallmark of the democrat party... massada and 9-11... never again...

then again, a sucker is born every minute...

RebelWithanAK · Oct 19, 2003, 01:09 am

Clark won't get elected because he's not a democrat, not because of whether he's a dove or not.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll barf on your economics. A Bush is the LAST thing we need to get a turnaround in our economy.

Impenitent · Oct 19, 2003, 01:29 am

too late... last 2 quarters have been growth and unemployment has been dropping... bush's economics is working...

dow 10,000 by april and dow 11,000 by next november... the democrat economic lie is over...

RebelWithanAK · Oct 19, 2003, 01:31 am

Excuse me, but we've lost 2.7 million jobs in 3 years. Unless there's going to be a miracle before Nov of 2004, you're pretty fucked in your little theory.

Impenitent · Oct 19, 2003, 01:35 am

as I said, the economy is growing now and throwing a tantrum will not help you "talk it down" ... the economy is rising and your gloom and doom will not sell...

**Sean** · Oct 19, 2003, 02:10 am

Impenitent could you give me some intel on the recent recovery you speak of? I've been keeping track of it for some time and don't see anything spectacular, but I could be wrong.

As for Rebels "gloom and doom", I bought into it. The economy sucks and I'm pissed as well. In my opinion Bush really hasn't done much for the country. His job is to motivate those in control to fine tune the system. He hasn't done this.

Impenitent · Oct 19, 2003, 02:32 am

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100465,00.html

bush's tax cuts have revived the economy and it is growing... where do you get your news? have you considered the source?
bush has done and is doing more than you know for the economy... is the liberal media telling you the truth?

watch cavuto's programs on fox if you get a chance...

**Sean** · Oct 19, 2003, 03:26 am

I get my news from the BBC, and use CNN money to follow the economy as best I can.

There is very little liberal media in my opinion. If there was then I wouldn't hear so many softball questions come out of every reporters mouth.

Oh, and please don't ruin your credibility in my mind by telling me to watch a show on fox (it receives tons O' $$ from the Republican party).

Impenitent · Oct 19, 2003, 12:34 pm

please don't ruin your "open-mindedness" by stereotyping the station without you even listening to it... show me proof of one dime from the republican party to fox... buying advertisments? both parties do that... sorry... that is exactly like me claiming that cnn msnbc and the big 3 all recieve tons of $$$ from the democrat party... the last 5 do push a "liberal" (in the american political sense of the term, not as in liberty) agenda, and if you can't see that, you haven't been paying attention or looking at them critically...

**Sean** · Oct 19, 2003, 05:21 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
please don't ruin your "open-mindedness" by stereotyping the station without you even listening to it... show me proof of one dime from the republican party to fox... buying advertisments? both parties do that... sorry... that is exactly like me claiming that cnn msnbc and the big 3 all recieve tons of $$$ from the democrat party... the last 5 do push a "liberal" (in the american political sense of the term, not as in liberty) agenda, and if you can't see that, you haven't been paying attention or looking at them critically...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

http://media.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4...-110280,00.html

but that's a tangent. Let's focus on Dean.

Impenitent · Oct 19, 2003, 05:41 pm

thanks, but that "story" didn't tell me a thing... I can post pages from "right wing" journalists that demonstrate how the main stream american media are slanted left just as you can post pages from "left wing" journalists who claim that only fox is evil... yes it is a tangent, but we are searching for the "unbiased" truth, no? all I said was don't lean so far either way, and by prejudging one, that is exactly what happens...

I thought we did the dean bit... the far left liberal base of the democrat party (they are the only ones who turn out for primary elections) will elect him as their standard bearer and he will shine like mondale in 84... there is nothing fresh about dean, same old democrat promises... soak the "rich" with more taxes and redistribute wealth... you would think that they would have fullfilled those tired old campaign promises years ago when they first made them... dangle those carrots...

**Sean** · Oct 19, 2003, 05:49 pm

nothing new about univsersal health care? Not in my opinion.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 19, 2003, 09:45 pm

Excuse me, Impenitent, but Bush's reign has heralded the worst drop in the economy since the Depression. The only "recovery" is a jobless one. Unemployment has not gone down. Claims have not gone down. There is simply no one left to lay off.

If that isn't a failure of economic policy, then to you nothing is. The tax cut has served no purpose but to bankrupt all the states and put our federal government even further into debt.

That, and if you expect us to take anything said by Fox at face value, then you absolutely must at least attempt to reciprocate the gratitude by actually reading a Guardian article. It won't kill you.

Impenitent · Oct 20, 2003, 12:16 am

sean... what is new about the universal health care proposal? hillary's universal health care proposal in 93 is what caused the american public to vote in a republican majority in the house in 94 for the first time in 40 years... americans don't want tax and spend democrat socialists running things anymore...

AK... that is a flat out falsehood about the bush administration... if anything this has been the mildest recession... stocks are up, all economic indicators are up, 50,000 new jobs created last quarter, unemployment HAS gone down... keep reading pravda... the last bush's economy was being lied about and talked down (yes it was actually rising as well) before clinton was elected... this bush will not allow the democrat media machine of liars to get away with it this time...

I did read the guardian article and it didn't tell me anything but a series of ad homenum attacks against fox news... look critically at the noise you are being fed...

Waychel · Oct 20, 2003, 12:43 am

Forgive me for being so clueless, but could someone please point me in the right direction as to learn more about Howard Dean? I've never heard of him before.. I'm assuming he's some Democratic candidate running for presidency? I'd like to learn more about him and his positions.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 20, 2003, 12:47 am

Where are your numbers coming from, then; Impenitent? Here, from the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

Number of unemployed as of Sept 2000: 5,645,000
Number of unemployed as of Sept 2003: 8,973,000

RebelWithanAK · Oct 20, 2003, 12:48 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel,)
Forgive me for being so clueless, but could someone please point me in the right direction as to learn more about Howard Dean? I've never heard of him before.. I'm assuming he's some Democratic candidate running for presidency? I'd like to learn more about him and his positions.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

*smack*

Waychel · Oct 20, 2003, 01:10 am

Geez.. sorry for even asking.. I wasn't aware that I am supposed to know or be on top of everything. :\

Oct 18, 2003, 11:16 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Sean former overlord Location: New York Posts: 2,383	I must say I respect the guy. I've looked into him quite a bit, and I think he's very promissing. He's a fresh face in the democratic party, which desparately needs one. I was watching some of his interviews on deanforamerica.com, and liked where he wanted to go with the country. What's your take on the man, and his ideas? So it goes

Oct 19, 2003, 12:35 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Bad: - Vermont is not a hard place to run. It has no race relations to speak of, no troubles with heath coverage or welfare or affordable housing, no real principle democratic issues to speak of. Most of the people there are White and comfortably well off. - Barely any voting record. The guy doesn't have a voting record on many of the aforementioned issues, nor on gay rights or the like. He'll never be called a career politician, but he's won't exactly be considered experienced either. - He's a northerner. The last president north of the Mason-Dixon line to be elected was JFK. Good: - He's the most electable candidate. I'd much rather Al Sharpton, but I'm sure the majority of this nation would rather surrender to the Chinese than elect a Black man. - He's as leftist a Democrat as we need. Gore's main losing point was not being left enough, and we certainly don't need no Clarks or Liebermans (spit!!!). . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 19, 2003, 01:06 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	dean will get elected by the base and we'll have a replay of 1984... don't worry about clark, the peacenik wing of the democrats will never let him get elected... as far as the ideas of the party, well the economics of the democrats are over... there are too many investors in the stock market today, too many citizens who understand how the stock market and the economy works... the days of tax and spend liberalism are over and that is all the democrat party knows... not to mention the abysmal record on military and intelligence spending that is the hallmark of the democrat party... massada and 9-11... never again... then again, a sucker is born every minute... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 19, 2003, 01:09 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Clark won't get elected because he's not a democrat, not because of whether he's a dove or not. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll barf on your economics. A Bush is the LAST thing we need to get a turnaround in our economy. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 19, 2003, 01:29 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	too late... last 2 quarters have been growth and unemployment has been dropping... bush's economics is working... dow 10,000 by april and dow 11,000 by next november... the democrat economic lie is over... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 19, 2003, 01:31 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Excuse me, but we've lost 2.7 million jobs in 3 years. Unless there's going to be a miracle before Nov of 2004, you're pretty fucked in your little theory. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 19, 2003, 01:35 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	as I said, the economy is growing now and throwing a tantrum will not help you "talk it down" ... the economy is rising and your gloom and doom will not sell... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 19, 2003, 02:10 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Sean former overlord Location: New York Posts: 2,383	Impenitent could you give me some intel on the recent recovery you speak of? I've been keeping track of it for some time and don't see anything spectacular, but I could be wrong. As for Rebels "gloom and doom", I bought into it. The economy sucks and I'm pissed as well. In my opinion Bush really hasn't done much for the country. His job is to motivate those in control to fine tune the system. He hasn't done this. So it goes

Oct 19, 2003, 02:32 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100465,00.html bush's tax cuts have revived the economy and it is growing... where do you get your news? have you considered the source? bush has done and is doing more than you know for the economy... is the liberal media telling you the truth? watch cavuto's programs on fox if you get a chance... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 19, 2003, 03:26 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Sean former overlord Location: New York Posts: 2,383	I get my news from the BBC, and use CNN money to follow the economy as best I can. There is very little liberal media in my opinion. If there was then I wouldn't hear so many softball questions come out of every reporters mouth. Oh, and please don't ruin your credibility in my mind by telling me to watch a show on fox (it receives tons O' $$ from the Republican party). So it goes

Oct 19, 2003, 12:34 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	please don't ruin your "open-mindedness" by stereotyping the station without you even listening to it... show me proof of one dime from the republican party to fox... buying advertisments? both parties do that... sorry... that is exactly like me claiming that cnn msnbc and the big 3 all recieve tons of $$$ from the democrat party... the last 5 do push a "liberal" (in the american political sense of the term, not as in liberty) agenda, and if you can't see that, you haven't been paying attention or looking at them critically... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 19, 2003, 05:21 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Sean former overlord Location: New York Posts: 2,383	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) please don't ruin your "open-mindedness" by stereotyping the station without you even listening to it... show me proof of one dime from the republican party to fox... buying advertisments? both parties do that... sorry... that is exactly like me claiming that cnn msnbc and the big 3 all recieve tons of $$$ from the democrat party... the last 5 do push a "liberal" (in the american political sense of the term, not as in liberty) agenda, and if you can't see that, you haven't been paying attention or looking at them critically...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> http://media.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4...-110280,00.html but that's a tangent. Let's focus on Dean. So it goes

Oct 19, 2003, 05:41 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	thanks, but that "story" didn't tell me a thing... I can post pages from "right wing" journalists that demonstrate how the main stream american media are slanted left just as you can post pages from "left wing" journalists who claim that only fox is evil... yes it is a tangent, but we are searching for the "unbiased" truth, no? all I said was don't lean so far either way, and by prejudging one, that is exactly what happens... I thought we did the dean bit... the far left liberal base of the democrat party (they are the only ones who turn out for primary elections) will elect him as their standard bearer and he will shine like mondale in 84... there is nothing fresh about dean, same old democrat promises... soak the "rich" with more taxes and redistribute wealth... you would think that they would have fullfilled those tired old campaign promises years ago when they first made them... dangle those carrots... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 19, 2003, 05:49 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Sean former overlord Location: New York Posts: 2,383	nothing new about univsersal health care? Not in my opinion. So it goes

Oct 19, 2003, 09:45 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Excuse me, Impenitent, but Bush's reign has heralded the worst drop in the economy since the Depression. The only "recovery" is a jobless one. Unemployment has not gone down. Claims have not gone down. There is simply no one left to lay off. If that isn't a failure of economic policy, then to you nothing is. The tax cut has served no purpose but to bankrupt all the states and put our federal government even further into debt. That, and if you expect us to take anything said by Fox at face value, then you absolutely must at least attempt to reciprocate the gratitude by actually reading a Guardian article. It won't kill you. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 20, 2003, 12:16 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	sean... what is new about the universal health care proposal? hillary's universal health care proposal in 93 is what caused the american public to vote in a republican majority in the house in 94 for the first time in 40 years... americans don't want tax and spend democrat socialists running things anymore... AK... that is a flat out falsehood about the bush administration... if anything this has been the mildest recession... stocks are up, all economic indicators are up, 50,000 new jobs created last quarter, unemployment HAS gone down... keep reading pravda... the last bush's economy was being lied about and talked down (yes it was actually rising as well) before clinton was elected... this bush will not allow the democrat media machine of liars to get away with it this time... I did read the guardian article and it didn't tell me anything but a series of ad homenum attacks against fox news... look critically at the noise you are being fed... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 20, 2003, 12:43 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	Forgive me for being so clueless, but could someone please point me in the right direction as to learn more about Howard Dean? I've never heard of him before.. I'm assuming he's some Democratic candidate running for presidency? I'd like to learn more about him and his positions. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Oct 20, 2003, 12:47 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Where are your numbers coming from, then; Impenitent? Here, from the Bureau of Labor Statistics: Number of unemployed as of Sept 2000: 5,645,000 Number of unemployed as of Sept 2003: 8,973,000 . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 20, 2003, 12:48 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel,) Forgive me for being so clueless, but could someone please point me in the right direction as to learn more about Howard Dean? I've never heard of him before.. I'm assuming he's some Democratic candidate running for presidency? I'd like to learn more about him and his positions.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> smack . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 20, 2003, 01:10 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	Geez.. sorry for even asking.. I wasn't aware that I am supposed to know or be on top of everything. :\ Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.