Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Impenitent · Oct 23, 2003, 08:32 pm

how do you know it's bullshit-speak? can't you decide for yourself? can't you make up your own mind? do you need some left wing ideologue to tell you how to think? if you don't listen, how can you even judge for yourself? you are a slave and you don't even know it...

FREE YOUR MIND...

RebelWithanAK · Oct 23, 2003, 10:04 pm

Fuck you, you conservative Reilly-Borg. I AM the left wing ideologue, and I'm calling Fox News an oversimplified, heavily biased right wing piece of donkey doo headed by Lucifer himself in a cheap suit! That's my opinion, it's based off of my own experiences, and I'm sticking to it!

*cleaned up (slightly) for content... censorers.*

**Sean** · Oct 23, 2003, 11:46 pm

whoa...this isn't constructive at all. You guys are better than this. Please don't scare off new members/veterans with this terrible abuse. I was just about to comment on how good we're all getting at following the simple guidelines, and then I saw this.

Rebel, you should know better. This language isn't doing anything but making it personal. You're debating about bias, and political ideology, not Rebel vs. Impenitent.

Impenitent, everyone who doesn't agree with you and shows you sources that aren't from FOX are not sheep, so give it a rest. Back yourself up before you come to every topic with the same response. It's not working.

Impenitent · Oct 24, 2003, 03:17 am

Sean

I know that not everyone agrees with me...
they repeat the same worn out propaganda over and over again...
when I try to "back myself up" and introduce a new perspective on the situation, I am told that it is right wing trash from fox before it is even discussed. that makes for no communication, no debate. it is like trying to argue with certain bible thumpers who believe only their interpretation of the bible (or certain political hacks who are convinced that theirs is the one true path)... nothing else can even have the slightest hint of being true... their minds are closed to the possibility of anything else being right... people with closed minds such as those are no better than sheep... that is the only distinction I draw that way...

when I pointed out the lack of debate, and the obvious bias, I get attacked... ad homenium fallacies happen all the time on philosophy boards and I am used to it... but you are correct, it is not working... but only because the possibility of disagreement and other opinion is not being allowed, not because the "popular" opinion is true or valid...

G. Adams · Oct 24, 2003, 07:28 am

my liberal heart bleeds for you.

all of that coming from a guy whose only consistency has been to ignore what people have posted and pronounce sieg hail.

well, on a more constructive note, Fox News was established because it appeared to the right wing of America (read murdoch and the richer republicans, plus CC) that CNN had far too much of a liberal and Democrat bias. It is and has always been centred around a right wing agenda. So why would it be giving out accurate information that would help to de-stabilise Bush, particularly at this vulnerable time for?

Impenitent · Oct 24, 2003, 12:45 pm

G

you'd best stop the bleeding

I ignore nothing, I have heard most of these arguments at least 10 years ago, they were fallacious and invalid then just as they are fallacious and invalid now... if you don't like being compared with a totalitarian, don't advance totalitarian positions...

your idea of fox is completely wrong... it is a balanced perspective, it shows both sides, not exclusively right wing... why do you think colmes and von susteren have programs? have you ever seen fox news watch? jane hall and neil gabler are certainly right wingers... and have you ever seen a hint of a right wing perspective on any other station that isn't labeled negatively? but the objection I have is that the other side here refuses to even look at the information, it is prejudged and no logical arguments are advanced...

G. Adams · Oct 24, 2003, 01:07 pm

Well lets take some stats from the most hated liberal, Michael Moore, and his new book "Dude, wheres my country?"(which is way too short, i read in about four hours dammit).

He has however well sourced his work this time.

"The US media watchdog FAIR studied the evening newscasts of six US television networks and news channels for three weeks, starting on March 20 - the day after the U.S. bombing of Iraq began. The study examined the affliations and views of more than 1600 sources who appeared on-camera in stories about Iraq. The results were hardly a surprise:

Viewers were more than 25 times a likely to see a pro-war U.S. source than someone with an anti war point of view.
Military sources were featured twice as frequently as civillians
Only 4% of sources appearing during the three weeks were afflilliated with universities, think tanks or NGO's.
Of a total of 840 U.S. sources who were current or former government or military officials, only four were identified as being opposed to the war."

Now that includes all those stations you would label as liberal. So what the hell must Fox have been like? The US media is in the pockets of this administration. At least while it looks liek Bush will win the next election. If this turns around they will be on the Democrat wagon to try and corrupt their candidates to their views with untold campaign donations.

Impenitent · Oct 31, 2003, 09:06 am

have you noticed the SILENCE about the american economy from our left wing friends?

the most growth in one quarter since Reagan...

doom and gloom, tax cuts don't work... fox news is right wing liars...

open your eyes and learn some economic reality...

**Sean** · Nov 1, 2003, 11:53 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
have you noticed the SILENCE about the american economy from our left wing friends?

the most growth in one quarter since Reagan...

doom and gloom, tax cuts don't work... fox news is right wing liars...

open your eyes and learn some economic reality...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

DOOM AND GLOOM..sounds like a beacon of freedom, etc..cliche'

Did fox news also tell you about the largest increase in HISTORY of the deficit?

Impenitent · Nov 1, 2003, 12:00 pm

LOL yeah... the deficit is nothing compared to that left by the democrat congresses... you really need to learn some perspective... but that is the democrat talking points, deficit and jobless economy ... until the economy creates more jobs than you can lie about... keep being a good drone for the democrats

**Sean** · Nov 2, 2003, 10:37 pm

No need to attempt to offend me (as you do in almost every post). I'm merely expressing another opinion. But my point was that there was the largest increase in the deficit, so I don't see how you can say that it's nothing compared to the democrats. I suggest if you're going to say such defensive (and probably wrong) statements you back them up with some examples. The whole name calling concept you've got going isn't making any progress.

Impenitent · Nov 3, 2003, 02:47 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sean,)
No need to attempt to offend me (as you do in almost every post). I'm merely expressing another opinion. But my point was that there was the largest increase in the deficit, so I don't see how you can say that it's nothing compared to the democrats. I suggest if you're going to say such defensive (and probably wrong) statements you back them up with some examples. The whole name calling concept you've got going isn't making any progress.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I never attempt to offend anyone... if you are offended that is your perrogative... you may express whatever opinion you like, I argue in facts... the "largest increase in the deficit" is a lie... the democrats have that distinction of creating and having the largest increase in deficit spending under Reagan... you never backed up your democrat lie about the "bush deficit"... I, on the other hand, have the facts about the federal budget, the deficit and the debt and the imaginary "surpluses", straight from the government...

http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=4129&sequence=0

http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1821&sequence=0

indierockboy · Nov 14, 2003, 04:16 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
my liberal heart bleeds for you.

all of that coming from a guy whose only consistency has been to ignore what people have posted and pronounce sieg hail.

well, on a more constructive note, Fox News was established because it appeared to the right wing of America (read murdoch and the richer republicans, plus CC) that CNN had far too much of a liberal and Democrat bias. It is and has always been centred around a right wing agenda. So why would it be giving out accurate information that would help to de-stabilise Bush, particularly at this vulnerable time for?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

further, several of fox news' personalities (namely bill o'reilly) have been documented lying, distorting facts, and making statistics up. i don't mean misquoting stats, i mean complete fantasies of numbers.

anyways, on to the matter of the economy. i've been told that the job market is evolving, that we're in a jobless recovery, and all kinds of interesting spin to explain how the economy is recovering. i would like to point out that 40% of the latest jobs created are temp and retail jobs that don't pay enough to support a family. also, unemployment rates have been seasonally adjusted for some time, and do not include "discouraged workers", nor workers of part-time jobs who wish to work full time. the numbers can be easily misleading.

aditya_shivkumar · Nov 14, 2003, 09:08 am

Yeah....I very much agree that my take on Sen.Howard Dean is 100%He is the only guy after Gen Wes Clark who can defeat the callous and the most irresponsible president in the history of the United States of america George W Bush....But to run in Vermont is not a great deal...but to produce results is definetley a big deal....So Howard Dean has done that so why not elect him as the next president of the United States of America....Lets together kick the ass of GEORGE WRONG BUSH....

indierockboy · Nov 14, 2003, 02:40 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
LOL yeah... the deficit is nothing compared to that left by the democrat congresses... you really need to learn some perspective... but that is the democrat talking points, deficit and jobless economy ... until the economy creates more jobs than you can lie about... keep being a good drone for the democrats<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

the democrat congress? you mean something akin to how the democrat congress was blamed for reagan's deficit?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent)
the most growth in one quarter since Reagan<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

something no democrat can do. i mean, it's not like bill clinton lead the longest economic expansion in american history or anything. it's not like bush inherited a surplus. it's not like 1.5 million jobs were lost. it's not as if to meet previous administrative job creation averages he would have had to create 500 000 (570 000 to keep up with clinton) new jobs a month for the remainder of his term. if he had started a few months ago.

next you'll be telling us it was the democrats that tried to block independant probing of 9/11.

Impenitent · Nov 14, 2003, 03:27 pm

-the democrat congress? you mean something akin to how the democrat congress was blamed for reagan's deficit?

who originates, writes and passes ALL united states spending bills?
(the answer is in your constitution)... hint: it wasn't Reagan

-something no democrat can do.

no, no democrat HAS done so... clinton presided over the expansion... clinton's first fiscal policy was the middle class tax increase and he tried to nationalize health care... and guess what happened for the first time in 40 years? REPUBLICAN CONGRESS... guess what they did? oh yes balanced the budget for the first time in 40 years... the democrats and clinton NEVER BALANCED a budget... clinton signed off on the balanced budgets that the republican congress made him sign...

bush inherited a recession and the $6.8 trillion debt that both parties have helped run up...

you are slipping in the talking points, it was 2.5 million but I did hear sharpton's lie that it was 6 million...

now you watch, as the election gets closer, the rhetoric and lies will be amplified... more deficits and job loss... and don't forget the "quagmire" in iraq... never mind the fact that every democrat knew that saddam had wmd's in 1998 when clinton wanted to bomb, but when bush actually took care of the problem, no, it's immediately political lies...

but I digress...

RebelWithanAK · Nov 14, 2003, 04:27 pm

You're both wrong - it's 3.3 million. And it's STILL the biggest deficit in American history.

indierockboy · Nov 14, 2003, 05:09 pm

thanks for the correction, rebel. can i get a link on that?

who originates, writes and passes ALL united states spending bills?

well, since you asked so nicely. the president of the united states proposes a budget before the next fiscal year, and then congress chooses whether or not it should pass it. given that during reagan's time congress accounted for an overall budget outlay difference of 0.6%, reagan and his administration were responsible for 99.4% of the spending. to his credit, however, he did end stagflation.

no, no democrat HAS done so... clinton presided over the expansion... clinton's first fiscal policy was the middle class tax increase and he tried to nationalize health care... and guess what happened for the first time in 40 years? REPUBLICAN CONGRESS... guess what they did? oh yes balanced the budget for the first time in 40 years... the democrats and clinton NEVER BALANCED a budget... clinton signed off on the balanced budgets that the republican congress made him sign...

the republican congress didn't balance the budgets. cutbacks on military spending, and a powerful economy did.

bush inherited a recession and the $6.8 trillion debt that both parties have helped run up...

bush inherited an estimated budget surplus of around $150 billion. but don't trust me, trust the white house:
"The White House said Wednesday [august 22nd 2001, i believe) the surplus estimate for fiscal year 2001, which ends September 30, had shrunk to about $158 billion." i believe it was clinton who proposed the FY2001 budget.

now that there is a republican congress and a republican administration, it would make sense (by your logic that republicans were able to balance a budget despite clinton) that we would have balanced budgets. not the biggest deficit in american history.

RebelWithanAK · Nov 14, 2003, 06:17 pm

Indierockboy:

http://www.volconvo.com/forums/index.php?s...t=15&#entry4095

indierockboy · Nov 14, 2003, 07:29 pm

many thanks, rebel.

Oct 23, 2003, 08:32 pm	#41 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	how do you know it's bullshit-speak? can't you decide for yourself? can't you make up your own mind? do you need some left wing ideologue to tell you how to think? if you don't listen, how can you even judge for yourself? you are a slave and you don't even know it... FREE YOUR MIND... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 23, 2003, 10:04 pm	#42 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Fuck you, you conservative Reilly-Borg. I AM the left wing ideologue, and I'm calling Fox News an oversimplified, heavily biased right wing piece of donkey doo headed by Lucifer himself in a cheap suit! That's my opinion, it's based off of my own experiences, and I'm sticking to it! cleaned up (slightly) for content... censorers. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 23, 2003, 11:46 pm	#43 (permalink) (top)
Sean former overlord Location: New York Posts: 2,383	whoa...this isn't constructive at all. You guys are better than this. Please don't scare off new members/veterans with this terrible abuse. I was just about to comment on how good we're all getting at following the simple guidelines, and then I saw this. Rebel, you should know better. This language isn't doing anything but making it personal. You're debating about bias, and political ideology, not Rebel vs. Impenitent. Impenitent, everyone who doesn't agree with you and shows you sources that aren't from FOX are not sheep, so give it a rest. Back yourself up before you come to every topic with the same response. It's not working. So it goes

Oct 24, 2003, 03:17 am	#44 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	Sean I know that not everyone agrees with me... they repeat the same worn out propaganda over and over again... when I try to "back myself up" and introduce a new perspective on the situation, I am told that it is right wing trash from fox before it is even discussed. that makes for no communication, no debate. it is like trying to argue with certain bible thumpers who believe only their interpretation of the bible (or certain political hacks who are convinced that theirs is the one true path)... nothing else can even have the slightest hint of being true... their minds are closed to the possibility of anything else being right... people with closed minds such as those are no better than sheep... that is the only distinction I draw that way... when I pointed out the lack of debate, and the obvious bias, I get attacked... ad homenium fallacies happen all the time on philosophy boards and I am used to it... but you are correct, it is not working... but only because the possibility of disagreement and other opinion is not being allowed, not because the "popular" opinion is true or valid... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 24, 2003, 07:28 am	#45 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	my liberal heart bleeds for you. all of that coming from a guy whose only consistency has been to ignore what people have posted and pronounce sieg hail. well, on a more constructive note, Fox News was established because it appeared to the right wing of America (read murdoch and the richer republicans, plus CC) that CNN had far too much of a liberal and Democrat bias. It is and has always been centred around a right wing agenda. So why would it be giving out accurate information that would help to de-stabilise Bush, particularly at this vulnerable time for? Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 24, 2003, 12:45 pm	#46 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	G you'd best stop the bleeding I ignore nothing, I have heard most of these arguments at least 10 years ago, they were fallacious and invalid then just as they are fallacious and invalid now... if you don't like being compared with a totalitarian, don't advance totalitarian positions... your idea of fox is completely wrong... it is a balanced perspective, it shows both sides, not exclusively right wing... why do you think colmes and von susteren have programs? have you ever seen fox news watch? jane hall and neil gabler are certainly right wingers... and have you ever seen a hint of a right wing perspective on any other station that isn't labeled negatively? but the objection I have is that the other side here refuses to even look at the information, it is prejudged and no logical arguments are advanced... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 24, 2003, 01:07 pm	#47 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Well lets take some stats from the most hated liberal, Michael Moore, and his new book "Dude, wheres my country?"(which is way too short, i read in about four hours dammit). He has however well sourced his work this time. "The US media watchdog FAIR studied the evening newscasts of six US television networks and news channels for three weeks, starting on March 20 - the day after the U.S. bombing of Iraq began. The study examined the affliations and views of more than 1600 sources who appeared on-camera in stories about Iraq. The results were hardly a surprise: Viewers were more than 25 times a likely to see a pro-war U.S. source than someone with an anti war point of view. Military sources were featured twice as frequently as civillians Only 4% of sources appearing during the three weeks were afflilliated with universities, think tanks or NGO's. Of a total of 840 U.S. sources who were current or former government or military officials, only four were identified as being opposed to the war." Now that includes all those stations you would label as liberal. So what the hell must Fox have been like? The US media is in the pockets of this administration. At least while it looks liek Bush will win the next election. If this turns around they will be on the Democrat wagon to try and corrupt their candidates to their views with untold campaign donations. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 31, 2003, 09:06 am	#48 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	have you noticed the SILENCE about the american economy from our left wing friends? the most growth in one quarter since Reagan... doom and gloom, tax cuts don't work... fox news is right wing liars... open your eyes and learn some economic reality... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Nov 1, 2003, 11:53 am	#49 (permalink) (top)
Sean former overlord Location: New York Posts: 2,383	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) have you noticed the SILENCE about the american economy from our left wing friends? the most growth in one quarter since Reagan... doom and gloom, tax cuts don't work... fox news is right wing liars... open your eyes and learn some economic reality...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> DOOM AND GLOOM..sounds like a beacon of freedom, etc..cliche' Did fox news also tell you about the largest increase in HISTORY of the deficit? So it goes

Nov 1, 2003, 12:00 pm	#50 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	LOL yeah... the deficit is nothing compared to that left by the democrat congresses... you really need to learn some perspective... but that is the democrat talking points, deficit and jobless economy ... until the economy creates more jobs than you can lie about... keep being a good drone for the democrats "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Nov 2, 2003, 10:37 pm	#51 (permalink) (top)
Sean former overlord Location: New York Posts: 2,383	No need to attempt to offend me (as you do in almost every post). I'm merely expressing another opinion. But my point was that there was the largest increase in the deficit, so I don't see how you can say that it's nothing compared to the democrats. I suggest if you're going to say such defensive (and probably wrong) statements you back them up with some examples. The whole name calling concept you've got going isn't making any progress. So it goes

Nov 3, 2003, 02:47 am	#52 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sean,) No need to attempt to offend me (as you do in almost every post). I'm merely expressing another opinion. But my point was that there was the largest increase in the deficit, so I don't see how you can say that it's nothing compared to the democrats. I suggest if you're going to say such defensive (and probably wrong) statements you back them up with some examples. The whole name calling concept you've got going isn't making any progress.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I never attempt to offend anyone... if you are offended that is your perrogative... you may express whatever opinion you like, I argue in facts... the "largest increase in the deficit" is a lie... the democrats have that distinction of creating and having the largest increase in deficit spending under Reagan... you never backed up your democrat lie about the "bush deficit"... I, on the other hand, have the facts about the federal budget, the deficit and the debt and the imaginary "surpluses", straight from the government... http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=4129&sequence=0 http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1821&sequence=0 "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Nov 14, 2003, 04:16 am	#53 (permalink) (top)
indierockboy Molten Ash Location: ontario canada Posts: 104	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) my liberal heart bleeds for you. all of that coming from a guy whose only consistency has been to ignore what people have posted and pronounce sieg hail. well, on a more constructive note, Fox News was established because it appeared to the right wing of America (read murdoch and the richer republicans, plus CC) that CNN had far too much of a liberal and Democrat bias. It is and has always been centred around a right wing agenda. So why would it be giving out accurate information that would help to de-stabilise Bush, particularly at this vulnerable time for?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> further, several of fox news' personalities (namely bill o'reilly) have been documented lying, distorting facts, and making statistics up. i don't mean misquoting stats, i mean complete fantasies of numbers. anyways, on to the matter of the economy. i've been told that the job market is evolving, that we're in a jobless recovery, and all kinds of interesting spin to explain how the economy is recovering. i would like to point out that 40% of the latest jobs created are temp and retail jobs that don't pay enough to support a family. also, unemployment rates have been seasonally adjusted for some time, and do not include "discouraged workers", nor workers of part-time jobs who wish to work full time. the numbers can be easily misleading. http://www.autophobic.net/tmesis/sig.gif

Nov 14, 2003, 09:08 am	#54 (permalink) (top)
aditya_shivkumar Sedimentary Rock Posts: 1	Yeah....I very much agree that my take on Sen.Howard Dean is 100%He is the only guy after Gen Wes Clark who can defeat the callous and the most irresponsible president in the history of the United States of america George W Bush....But to run in Vermont is not a great deal...but to produce results is definetley a big deal....So Howard Dean has done that so why not elect him as the next president of the United States of America....Lets together kick the ass of GEORGE WRONG BUSH....

Nov 14, 2003, 02:40 pm	#55 (permalink) (top)
indierockboy Molten Ash Location: ontario canada Posts: 104	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) LOL yeah... the deficit is nothing compared to that left by the democrat congresses... you really need to learn some perspective... but that is the democrat talking points, deficit and jobless economy ... until the economy creates more jobs than you can lie about... keep being a good drone for the democrats<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> the democrat congress? you mean something akin to how the democrat congress was blamed for reagan's deficit? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent) the most growth in one quarter since Reagan<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> something no democrat can do. i mean, it's not like bill clinton lead the longest economic expansion in american history or anything. it's not like bush inherited a surplus. it's not like 1.5 million jobs were lost. it's not as if to meet previous administrative job creation averages he would have had to create 500 000 (570 000 to keep up with clinton) new jobs a month for the remainder of his term. if he had started a few months ago. next you'll be telling us it was the democrats that tried to block independant probing of 9/11. http://www.autophobic.net/tmesis/sig.gif

Nov 14, 2003, 03:27 pm	#56 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	-the democrat congress? you mean something akin to how the democrat congress was blamed for reagan's deficit? who originates, writes and passes ALL united states spending bills? (the answer is in your constitution)... hint: it wasn't Reagan -something no democrat can do. no, no democrat HAS done so... clinton presided over the expansion... clinton's first fiscal policy was the middle class tax increase and he tried to nationalize health care... and guess what happened for the first time in 40 years? REPUBLICAN CONGRESS... guess what they did? oh yes balanced the budget for the first time in 40 years... the democrats and clinton NEVER BALANCED a budget... clinton signed off on the balanced budgets that the republican congress made him sign... bush inherited a recession and the $6.8 trillion debt that both parties have helped run up... you are slipping in the talking points, it was 2.5 million but I did hear sharpton's lie that it was 6 million... now you watch, as the election gets closer, the rhetoric and lies will be amplified... more deficits and job loss... and don't forget the "quagmire" in iraq... never mind the fact that every democrat knew that saddam had wmd's in 1998 when clinton wanted to bomb, but when bush actually took care of the problem, no, it's immediately political lies... but I digress... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Nov 14, 2003, 04:27 pm	#57 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	You're both wrong - it's 3.3 million. And it's STILL the biggest deficit in American history. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Nov 14, 2003, 05:09 pm	#58 (permalink) (top)
indierockboy Molten Ash Location: ontario canada Posts: 104	thanks for the correction, rebel. can i get a link on that? who originates, writes and passes ALL united states spending bills? well, since you asked so nicely. the president of the united states proposes a budget before the next fiscal year, and then congress chooses whether or not it should pass it. given that during reagan's time congress accounted for an overall budget outlay difference of 0.6%, reagan and his administration were responsible for 99.4% of the spending. to his credit, however, he did end stagflation. no, no democrat HAS done so... clinton presided over the expansion... clinton's first fiscal policy was the middle class tax increase and he tried to nationalize health care... and guess what happened for the first time in 40 years? REPUBLICAN CONGRESS... guess what they did? oh yes balanced the budget for the first time in 40 years... the democrats and clinton NEVER BALANCED a budget... clinton signed off on the balanced budgets that the republican congress made him sign... the republican congress didn't balance the budgets. cutbacks on military spending, and a powerful economy did. bush inherited a recession and the $6.8 trillion debt that both parties have helped run up... bush inherited an estimated budget surplus of around $150 billion. but don't trust me, trust the white house: "The White House said Wednesday [august 22nd 2001, i believe) the surplus estimate for fiscal year 2001, which ends September 30, had shrunk to about $158 billion." i believe it was clinton who proposed the FY2001 budget. now that there is a republican congress and a republican administration, it would make sense (by your logic that republicans were able to balance a budget despite clinton) that we would have balanced budgets. not the biggest deficit in american history. http://www.autophobic.net/tmesis/sig.gif

Nov 14, 2003, 06:17 pm	#59 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Indierockboy: http://www.volconvo.com/forums/index.php?s...t=15&#entry4095 . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Nov 14, 2003, 07:29 pm	#60 (permalink) (top)
indierockboy Molten Ash Location: ontario canada Posts: 104	many thanks, rebel. http://www.autophobic.net/tmesis/sig.gif