BBC: Bush's Grandfather Planned Fascist Coup In America:

[Netopalis]

Sorry, I've been rather busy, but I'm back and ready to respond to each of the comments directed towards me.

Christibe:
1) The fact that many don't like him, but don't know why is largely due to the media's portrayal of him. Comedians and TV personalities have pictured him as dumb, therefore causing Americans to think lowly of him as well, causing them to not like him. Even so, nobody's going to cite that as a reason.

2) I really don't believe that Jeb Bush caused GWB to be President. It wasn't Bush's final call. There were sketchy parts on Gore's part too, such as a supposedly missing ballot box that was full of supposed Gore votes found in a supporter's garage that many wanted counted. The insinuation that the Butterfly Ballot is confusing is, quite simply, ridiculous - it had been used for years without issue, and if a person can't follow an arrow and put a stick into a hole to mark their vote, then quite frankly, they probably don't have the mental capacity to have a voice in who should be the next President. As for the illuminati and masons, there has been no proof that either organization has influenced things. Show me proof and not mere speculation, and I might be more inclined to listen to you.

3) I agree that certain measures taken by the government recently make me nervous. That being said, most of these have been accomplished by Congress, not Bush, and we can't fault him for how Congress votes. Further, the much-talked about Democratic congress has done nothing to change matters in this regard (or, really, in any regard).

4) This last paragraph is rather unintelligible, but it appears to accuse Bush of subliminal messaging? There has been no proof that subliminal messaging is anything more than a hoax. Trust me, if we were living in a fascist government, we wouldn't even be able to have this conversation.

Nono:
If you're not going to hold Bush accountable for his grandfather's actions, why even bring it up? Why is it newsworthy? As for Mien Kampf, racism was a largely accepted position in the 1930s, and thus it was not seen as truly surprising. It wasn't until after the holocaust that the American people began to see the dangers of racism.

Billyobamba:
The person who makes the claim is the person who should be able to cite their sources - not the readers. It's not that I'm lazy, it's merely that it's not my job - it's yours. Nobody would ever submit a college term paper, a newspaper article or anything of the sort, and ask their readers to find the information that they cited on their own.

On your second post: Relevance?

[BobbyO]

Quote by: billybobama Let me give you a fact that relates to FACSISM and the GREAT DEPRESSION. "1937 Wagner Housing Act opposed by rural and southern congressmen led by Senator Harry Byrd of Virginia: southeners also opposed 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act that sought to eliminate child labor that was widely used in the south and that established minimum wage and maximum hours for all workers,including blacks; southeners also killed the anti-lynching bill in 1938 with a 6 week filibuster.

Now this is the type of post which displays the total ignorance and lack of understanding of fascism which the conspiracy lunatics thus far on this thread have displayed.

Fascism ABSOLUTELY suppored using government to support improving housing and living standards. Hell, Hitler himself designed new housing designs for the German workers.

Fascism ABSOLUTELY supported using government to establish minimum wages (in fact, wages were fixed and could NOT be lowered without state approval). It also supported existing laws which capped the amount of hours which people can work. Child labor was already illegal in Germany, and the National Socialists naturally did not change the law.

The amusing part of whole claim that these businessmen wanted a "fascist" style solution to the great depression was that FDR was giving it to the USA anyways. The only diffeence was that of degree. Germany, being far more "socially" advanced of the USA in 1933 started at a higher lebvel, and went more further, and of course, more harshly, than what occurred in the USA. In the end, what ended the grat depression in the USA, and to a lesser extent in the USA, was the arms buildup.

[BobbyO]

Quote by: another day What does genocide have to do with fascism? Your thinking of the holocaust. Fascism is an authoritarian governing ideology that involves nationalism, statism, militarism, corporatism, populism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, racism and opposition to economic and political liberalism. Almost all of those fit with modern day america...The only thing left is to go further down the road of totalitarianism, which is happening every day. How many of those concepts have we seen expand throughout the two Bush's reigns, and how many of their antithesis have we seen repressed? As someone mentioned, bush's grandfather likely wasn't talking about the genocide of the nazis because he wouldn't have known much about it at the time (though I'm sure he would have liked the idea when he did hear about it). He's talking about the ideology...the ideology of oppression.

One could say it exists EVERYWHERE. Fascism is a modern and progressive ideology, not "ancient" and conservative.

[christibe]

Quote by: Netopalis Sorry, I've been rather busy, but I'm back and ready to respond to each of the comments directed towards me. Christibe: 1) The fact that many don't like him, but don't know why is largely due to the media's portrayal of him. Comedians and TV personalities have pictured him as dumb, therefore causing Americans to think lowly of him as well, causing them to not like him. Even so, nobody's going to cite that as a reason. 2) I really don't believe that Jeb Bush caused GWB to be President. It wasn't Bush's final call. There were sketchy parts on Gore's part too, such as a supposedly missing ballot box that was full of supposed Gore votes found in a supporter's garage that many wanted counted. The insinuation that the Butterfly Ballot is confusing is, quite simply, ridiculous - it had been used for years without issue, and if a person can't follow an arrow and put a stick into a hole to mark their vote, then quite frankly, they probably don't have the mental capacity to have a voice in who should be the next President. As for the illuminati and masons, there has been no proof that either organization has influenced things. Show me proof and not mere speculation, and I might be more inclined to listen to you. 3) I agree that certain measures taken by the government recently make me nervous. That being said, most of these have been accomplished by Congress, not Bush, and we can't fault him for how Congress votes. Further, the much-talked about Democratic congress has done nothing to change matters in this regard (or, really, in any regard). 4) This last paragraph is rather unintelligible, but it appears to accuse Bush of subliminal messaging? There has been no proof that subliminal messaging is anything more than a hoax. Trust me, if we were living in a fascist government, we wouldn't even be able to have this conversation.

I don't really want to respond to your first 3 oppositions, as they don't relate to the thread... and I have proved through basically all of my posts to take these off-topic, something I will work on.

As to the fourth, I know it is rather unintelligible. It took to free writing. It came to the conclusion that the American system and American ideals themselves allows for fascism to become the form of government if the techniques do not break any of the 'rules'. And that fascism is then American, and that there is nothing wrong with it. I'm going to start a thread on that question, in better form than I presented here. Because I sincerely need to be proven wrong... otherwise I am no longer American.

[Netopalis]

I can certainly help you there, if you wish to take it elsewhere. If you would like me to debate that here instead, I can do that as well. Your pick.

[christibe]

Excellent. I will create that thread elsewhere as it will bring this one to a place it didn't intend. Give me some time to write. :)

[grandpa]

Quote by: Praxius I dunno, but everytime I brought up the relation or comparison, there are a select few here who alway harp that there is no comparision to Bush and Nazism.... or that he's for freedom and looking out for out best interest...

Those who believe "it can't happen here" can only enable tyranny to develop. The assumption so often made is that we either support Bush or we support "the terrorists." Well, that's a rotten choice--almost unspeakably rotten--as far as I'm concerned.

This simplistic attitude is that our government must be benign. It boosts the outside chance of dissenters getting stomped to death so their "theories" don't spread. Meanwhile, despite all the talk about WMD's in Iraq, the US is trying to flood the market with more of them. Our government has even shown a sadistic commitment to creating more landmines. Best interests my ass.

Grandpa h.

[Athena]

Quote by: Praxius Here's a bit of history of the Bush's, for those interested: Source: ShoutWire - BBC: Bush's Grandfather Planned Fascist Coup in America Can't say I didn't warn you guys about him..... of course before when I mentioned this, nobody believed me for the most part.... but there you go for all those who always ask for sources. So does anybody now believe me when I relate him to Hitler and the things he is doing to your country now under the mask of democracy? It's not speculation.... it's not just because of this article alone.... it's just following human trends in history and how we repeat the same mistakes in the past today without learning from them.... and he wants a legacy to make his family proud after all these years..... at the US's expense. This isn't finger pointing at you guys.... this is direct concern for your country and the rest of the world.

They did not fail! Eisenhower warned us of the military/industrial complex that was put in place while he is in office. This includes replacing our liberal education which defended our democracy in the classroom with education for technology for military and industrial purpose, and establishing links between government and research and media, enabling those in high places to control research and the media, such as the Reagan administration did when ir scapegoated the poor for the 1970 recission, slashed domestic budgets and poured money into military spending.

People who agree with what has happened to the US need to stand together and take a united action.

[Athena]

Quote by: Netopalis Sorry, I've been rather busy, but I'm back and ready to respond to each of the comments directed towards me. Christibe: 1) The fact that many don't like him, but don't know why is largely due to the media's portrayal of him. Comedians and TV personalities have pictured him as dumb, therefore causing Americans to think lowly of him as well, causing them to not like him. Even so, nobody's going to cite that as a reason. 2) I really don't believe that Jeb Bush caused GWB to be President. It wasn't Bush's final call. There were sketchy parts on Gore's part too, such as a supposedly missing ballot box that was full of supposed Gore votes found in a supporter's garage that many wanted counted. The insinuation that the Butterfly Ballot is confusing is, quite simply, ridiculous - it had been used for years without issue, and if a person can't follow an arrow and put a stick into a hole to mark their vote, then quite frankly, they probably don't have the mental capacity to have a voice in who should be the next President. As for the illuminati and masons, there has been no proof that either organization has influenced things. Show me proof and not mere speculation, and I might be more inclined to listen to you. 3) I agree that certain measures taken by the government recently make me nervous. That being said, most of these have been accomplished by Congress, not Bush, and we can't fault him for how Congress votes. Further, the much-talked about Democratic congress has done nothing to change matters in this regard (or, really, in any regard). 4) This last paragraph is rather unintelligible, but it appears to accuse Bush of subliminal messaging? There has been no proof that subliminal messaging is anything more than a hoax. Trust me, if we were living in a fascist government, we wouldn't even be able to have this conversation. Nono: If you're not going to hold Bush accountable for his grandfather's actions, why even bring it up? Why is it newsworthy? As for Mien Kampf, racism was a largely accepted position in the 1930s, and thus it was not seen as truly surprising. It wasn't until after the holocaust that the American people began to see the dangers of racism. Billyobamba: The person who makes the claim is the person who should be able to cite their sources - not the readers. It's not that I'm lazy, it's merely that it's not my job - it's yours. Nobody would ever submit a college term paper, a newspaper article or anything of the sort, and ask their readers to find the information that they cited on their own. On your second post: Relevance?

Excuse me, what do you know of the order of facism? Damn! one of the most important things done through public education, is destroy the American hero's and praise effeciency. Besides changing from liberal education to education for technology and leaving moral training to the church, we also replaced training for independent thinking with group think, and we have gone from focusing on cooperation to competition and stressing kids with time limits. Teachers were taught to be impersonal so that each child would be equal, as in military equal, not family close.
We have radically changed our national values and character exactly the same as this was done in Germany, and this includes citizens preferring candidates and laws and policies, that are facist. This is not an overnight, Bush, did it thing. It has been happening slowly since Roosevelt and Hoover redesigned government,creating a huge shift of power to the government. The change really picked up spend when these folks took control of public education, research and media.

[Netopalis]

I agree with your statements on education - that is why I was homeschooled - I like to determine the veracity of statements for myself. Just because I don't think that the election was rigged doesn't mean that I'm not a free thinker - it simply means that I have thought about it and believe that it was highly unlikely that the ballots were rigged.

[Athena]

Quote by: grandpa Those who believe "it can't happen here" can only enable tyranny to develop. The assumption so often made is that we either support Bush or we support "the terrorists." Well, that's a rotten choice--almost unspeakably rotten--as far as I'm concerned. This simplistic attitude is that our government must be benign. It boosts the outside chance of dissenters getting stomped to death so their "theories" don't spread. Meanwhile, despite all the talk about WMD's in Iraq, the US is trying to flood the market with more of them. Our government has even shown a sadistic commitment to creating more landmines. Best interests my ass. Grandpa h.

We get this choice after after almost 50 years ater switching from independent thinking with "group think", praising effeciency, and government links to research and media. Am I communicating these concepts? Can someone paraphrase what I have said? This is mass mind control and it began over 50 years ago.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Netopalis 1) Like father like son does not necessarily have to hold true. I differ from my father in many views. I really don't think that there's a correlation between a conservative presidency and the complete overthrow of the government to support a fascist regime.

Oh indeed.... I'm not exactly like my father either.... but let's just focus into the Bush family for now.... all of them have been in the political stages at some point in their lives.... two have been presidents, two of them invaded Iraq, Bush Jr.'s traits and desires stink to high hell of Facism..... what did his grandfather tried to do?

Sometimes family goes in different directions, but sometimes, many hold true to their personal family values brought up to them from generation to generation. Father=Son is not the foundation of my opinions, but it is a factor.

2) The higher ups may have supported the Nazi regime, but that does not mean that the US government knew about the attack - especially since it was the Japanese, not the Nazis, who attacked.

They were warned if you read the article.... they were told who, how, when and why they were planning a takeover, but there was too many involved in too many sections and positions in the government to by-pass all of this, and brush it under the rug.

Japan attacked the US because they were allies with Nazi Germany, and if the Nazis directly started the war with them, then that would be like biting the hand that feeds you..... The Japanese were on their own terms on the other side of the world, they probably didn't know the whole details between the US and Germany, they got paranoid, and they attacked.... possibly saving us all when you think about it. If they didn't attack you guys, you guys probably would have never joined in WWII and those hiding in higher up positions would continue to supply the Nazi's with funding and the sort. But with the majority of the population now fueled by anger from the Attack, it was pretty difficult to not talk the country out of joining the allies..... therefore cutting off the Nazi's additional supplies and funding.... which would also explain why as soon as you guys started with us all on D-Day, they started to collapse.... they no longer had the US support..... which would explain a lot.

3) Bill Clinton was also prepared to invade Iraq, based on similar intelligence.

But he didn't.... so this is irrelevent, except showing that Clinton knew better then Bush not to invade until further information was provided.

4) I really don't believe that it would be possible for Bush's grandfather to start WWII in the hopes that his grandson could become President and take over the nation. That's the definition of a long shot.

It sure is, which is why I didn't say he started WWII.... he helped plan a forced government takeover which would replace the government you "Knew" with a facist government..... if this happened in time, you guys probably wouldn't have been attacked by the Japanese, and you guys wouldn't have joined in WWII... if you did.... it probably would have been on the Axis's side.

And as for the illuminati and the masons, people have had those theories for years, and it's never held true.

Everything thus far has come true.... WWI, WWII, they historically existed, they historically were a part of founding the US..... the Majority of your US presidents have been linked and/or registered to the Masons, including Bush Jr..... It's funny how people can't see the patterns in time until they already pass, in which by that time it's too late.

5) I agree that many of Bush's policies have stood on shaky ground as far as free speech, but to compare it to the Nazi regime is, again, rather extreme.

It is by no means extreme... if you pull the holocaust factor out of the equation (At least until we find Bush's concentration camps) the rise of the Nazi Party, the methods Hitler put into place to remain in power, the singled out race/religion for all to hate, the false information and propaganda that Bush has distributed across the country and around the world to suit his own personal agendas for those who work for him and who he works for.... gee I dunno.... looks pretty Nazi to me.

And remember, most of the world never knew truly of all the evil acts the Nazis did until after they were defeated and Hitler's rule ended.

6) That would be impossible without a constitutional amendment. If he tried to stay in office again, he would be forced from power.

Ha.... like's he's been forced so far? He's done so many things that goes against the constitution and he's already implaced laws to keep him in in case of emergencies where he feels those coming in after him will comprimise the security in Iraq, etc.... It's already too late.

7) Finally, I do think that this comparison of Bush to Hitler is rather degrading to the memory of those who died in the holocaust. You can't simply compare someone whose policies you don't like to a man who killed millions of people merely because he didn't like their race. That is an illogical jump and is, at best, spurious propaganda.

Only if you, like other people who seem to be quite narrow minded, like to put the holocaust as the only thing the Nazi's did during their reign.

We all know of the holocaust.... hell I've read, learned and have been told much of it during my growing up I have done..... I'm not ignorant on the holocaust.... perhaps if you learned more of the history of the Nazis, besides the fact that they killed millions of people, you might see some connections.

But no.... you like others who try and de-evaluate someone's comparisons to WWII to today, love to stop at the holocaust, you think that's what everybody is always talking about, and that everything roots to the holocaust..... open your dam eyes, read what people are talking about and then input.

If I wanted to compare him to what the Nazi's did with the Holocaust, I would bring it up..... But I didn't.... so leave it out.

Until we do find Hitler, I mean Bush's Concentration camps (AKA: secret detention facilities) in the middle east, leave that factor out..... until then.... stick to the comparisons that everybody is talking about and try not to go too far off the beaten topic but pulling out the holocaust to de-evaluate....

Trying to discredit someone's opinion and resources by claiming you can't compare to the "Holocaust" only proves and shows everyone your narrow point of view as to what all really happened in the past. There was much more that occured between 1932-1945 then just the holocaust.

Once again... unless someone here tries to compare the "Holocaust" with anything happeneing today, then the Holocaust is irrelevent in this conversation..... leave it out and stick to what is being talked about.

[The Decider]

Quote by: Praxius Japan attacked the US because they were allies with Nazi Germany, and if the Nazis directly started the war with them, then that would be like biting the hand that feeds you..... The Japanese were on their own terms on the other side of the world, they probably didn't know the whole details between the US and Germany, they got paranoid, and they attacked....

Could you cite the historical source or sources for the claim that Japan attacked Pearl Harbor out of paranoia caused by the US-Nazi Germany "alliance?" That's a new one for me.

Quote by: Praxius Everything thus far has come true.... WWI, WWII, they historically existed, they historically were a part of founding the US..... the Majority of your US presidents have been linked and/or registered to the Masons, including Bush Jr..... It's funny how people can't see the patterns in time until they already pass, in which by that time it's too late.

I never pegged you as a proponent of Masonic conspiracy theories. Which one do you advocate? There are many:

Masonic conspiracy theories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote by: Praxius It is by no means extreme... if you pull the holocaust factor out of the equation (At least until we find Bush's concentration camps) the rise of the Nazi Party, the methods Hitler put into place to remain in power, the singled out race/religion for all to hate, the false information and propaganda that Bush has distributed across the country and around the world to suit his own personal agendas for those who work for him and who he works for.... gee I dunno.... looks pretty Nazi to me.

Where is the Bush equivalent to Nazi eugenics? Where is the propaganda against one US racial/ethnic group? Where are the racial laws, which Hitler passed almost immediately after rising to power in 1933? Where are the political assassinations that also began early in Hitler's career? The comparison between Hitler and Bush Jr. is really off-base. Bush's faults and alleged crimes don't need false historical comparisons to make them smell. They smell bad enough already.

Quote by: Praxius And remember, most of the world never knew truly of all the evil acts the Nazis did until after they were defeated and Hitler's rule ended.

That's because most of the world didn't care about Hitler's racial laws in the early 1930's. There were plenty of warning signs for those who didn't share some of Hitler's paranoid prejudice against Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and other "deviants" of society. Hitler's official "anti-communism" helped also. Bush, for all his faults, doesn't remotely resemble the early, middle, or late career of Adolf Hitler.

[christibe]

Quote by: Praxius Japan attacked the US because they were allies with Nazi Germany, and if the Nazis directly started the war with them, then that would be like biting the hand that feeds you..... The Japanese were on their own terms on the other side of the world, they probably didn't know the whole details between the US and Germany, they got paranoid, and they attacked.... possibly saving us all when you think about it. If they didn't attack you guys, you guys probably would have never joined in WWII and those hiding in higher up positions would continue to supply the Nazi's with funding and the sort. But with the majority of the population now fueled by anger from the Attack, it was pretty difficult to not talk the country out of joining the allies..... therefore cutting off the Nazi's additional supplies and funding.... which would also explain why as soon as you guys started with us all on D-Day, they started to collapse.... they no longer had the US support..... which would explain a lot.

This isn't really accurate, though it is probably a better understanding than average Americans have of the alliances during WWII. The US govt. pretended to not really care that much about the battle going on in Europe, because of 'all we lost in WWI.' Really though, we wanted to see which direction it was going to head, which is why we supported everyone. (Also, we didn't halt trade with Germany at any point during the war once we entered... interesting) Mostly, it ended up that Germany took over France, and was encroaching on Russia, which we were kind of afraid of, and we couldn't really just sit on the fence anymore. There is evidence that shows that FDR knew, or could have ascertained very easily, that Japan planned to attack us. (..hmm... 9/11 conspiracies? It turns the question from 'how could the US military, intercepting all kinds of messages from everyone all the time NOT know about the Japanese sending a full-on fleet towards Hawaii, especially when there was kind of a WAR going on? to... and maybe it's too much of a stretch... but how could planes going off course not attract attention- automatically it is supposed to scramble some USAF, NORAD controls, etc., many things are supposed to happen, he doesn't care and tries to read a kids book, he doesn't institute emergency at first notice, he lets our only connection the people he blames go back home, where we will never see them again? is it conspiracy, or is it just the same old effing play-book?)

Sorry there, but many people believe that we knew Japan was going to attack, and we wanted them to because then we would have an immediate 'in' to the war. Nobody has alleged, at least from what I've read, that FDR knew in advance the extent of the Japanese attack. Mostly, the US was already worried about Russia's potential, and so we had to be against them and their allies. It wasn't known to the US if Russia had developed the atom bomb yet... and after much consideration and fear that they might use it first, we dropped two on Japan. Thus began the arms race and the Cold War.

Athena, I think you are very well advised. God, I really feel duped right now.. because I thought there was still something pure or ideal about my country.

[Athena]

Quote by: Praxius
Japan attacked the US because they were allies with Nazi Germany, and if the Nazis directly started the war with them, then that would be like biting the hand that feeds you..... The Japanese were on their own terms on the other side of the world, they probably didn't know the whole details between the US and Germany, they got paranoid, and they attacked....

Japan attacked only the navel fleet at Pearl Harbor in hopes of sinking the US navel fleet.. The US had been the world's supply of oil and was Japan's oil supplier, but the US embargoed oil to Japan to stop Japan's invasion of China. Japan had 5 years of oil stock piled and took the chance of sinking the US navy, hoping it could then get oil from new suppliers not controlled by the US. Then it could complete its invasion of China and China would not have become communist, but also our trading partners would have lost their control of Chinese businesses.

My Space calls war "mean politics", and politics are very much about trade agreements and economics, not just making laws to rule citizens.

[Praxius]

Quote by: The Decider Could you cite the historical source or sources for the claim that Japan attacked Pearl Harbor out of paranoia caused by the US-Nazi Germany "alliance?" That's a new one for me.

It should be... I just pulled it out of my ass.... however it is a half-truth based on common knowlege of WWII:

Japan attacked Pearl Harbor specifically for an important reason. Pearl Harbor was the home of the U.S. Pacific Fleet. Japan did not want the U.S. in the war because the U.S. at this time had the greatest Naval force. They concluded that if the Pacific Fleet was destroyed, Americans would feel de-moralized and not want to fight. Additionally, an attack on the Pacific Fleet would take the U.S. six months to recuperate and rebuild the Navy.

That and the US cutting off Japan's oil and resources when they invaded China and they feared too many Western Countries were begining to surround them.... there is a plithora of reasons..... however there is nothing out there that can discredit my speculation as well.

But that was basically just to see if anybody was paying attention..... however there is no evidence proving my theory as being impossible either

I never pegged you as a proponent of Masonic conspiracy theories. Which one do you advocate? There are many:

I don't believe in conspiracies unless there is enough evidence to claim they are not, and the only people calling them conspiracies are the government. There is too much actual historical evidence on the Masons and the Illuminati.... look it up and educate yourself on where they originated and why you no longer hear about them as often.

Where is the Bush equivalent to Nazi eugenics? Where is the propaganda against one US racial/ethnic group? Where are the racial laws, which Hitler passed almost immediately after rising to power in 1933? Where are the political assassinations that also began early in Hitler's career? The comparison between Hitler and Bush Jr. is really off-base. Bush's faults and alleged crimes don't need false historical comparisons to make them smell. They smell bad enough already.

Ask and thou shall recieve: (Quick Search)

Comparing U.S.A. to Nazi Germany

By all means, please pick a section and compare the similarities.... if the site doesn't look factual to you, then copy paste it into your respected historical reference and confirm the details.

Siege Heil: The Bush-Rove-Schwarzenegger Nazi Nexus and the Destabilization of California

Some more food for thought I just found.... interesting.

George W. Bush's grandfather helped finance the Nazi Party. Karl Rove's grandfather allegedly helped run the Nazi Party, and helped build the Birkenau Death Camp. Arnold Schwarzenegger's Austrian father volunteered for the infamous Nazi SA and became a ranking officer. Together, they have destabilized California and are on the brink of bringing it a new Reich. With the Schwarzenegger candidacy they have laid siege to America's largest state, lining it up for the 2004 election. The Bush family ties to the Nazi party are well known. In their 1994 Secret War Against the Jews, Mark Aarons and John Loftus use official US documents to establish that George Herbert Walker, George W. Bush's maternal great-grandfather, was one of Hitler's most important early backers. He funneled money to the rising young fascist through the Union Banking Corporation...... ........Often ignored are the Bush family's post-World War II dealings with former Nazis. John Foster Dulles, who had worked with the Bush family in the Harriman Company in laundering money for Nazi Germany, was Dwight Eisenhower's Secretary of State. His brother Allen became CIA director........ ........ As Martin Lee documents in The Beast Reawakens, American intelligence recruited numerous top Nazis to spy on the Soviets during the Cold War. Many established connections to the Bush family that had helped finance their original rise to power. In 1988 Project Censored, in its top award, noted "how the major mass media ignored, overlooked or undercovered at least ten critical stories reported in America's alternative press that raised serious questions about the Republican candidate, George Bush, dating from his reported role as a CIA 'asset' in 1963 to his presidential campaign's connection with a network of anti-Semites with Nazi and fascist affiliations in 1988." Investigative reporter Russ Bellant established ties between the Republican Party and former Axis Nazis and fascists.

Seeing anything yet?

On October 3, ABC News broke the story of Schwarzenegger's 1977 interview in which he was asked whom he admired. Schwarzenegger replied, "I admire Hitler, for instance, because he came from being a little man with almost no formal education, up to power. I admire him for being such a good public speaker and for what he did with it." To cover himself, Schwarzenegger has made substantial donations to the Los Angeles-based Wiesenthal Center, which tracks down ex-Nazis. Arnold has also renounced Hitler. But he has not renounced his friendship with fellow Austrian Kurt Waldheim, the one-time head of the United Nations with known Nazi ties. The book Arnold: An Unauthorized Biography, documents Arnold toasting Waldheim, who had participated in Nazi atrocities during World War II, at his wedding to Maria Shriver. "My friends don't want me to mention Kurt's name, because of all the recent Nazi stuff and the U.N. controversy," Arnold said. "But I love him and Maria does to, and so thank you, Kurt."

Dam, and I liked Arnold too.......

According to Bob Woodward's Bush at War, Bush attended a New York Yankees game soon after the September 11 World Trade Center disaster. He wore a fireman's jacket. As he threw out the first pitch, the crowd roared. Thousands of fans stuck out their arms with thumbs up. Karl Rove, sitting in the box of Yankee owner George Steinbrenner, likened the roar of the crowd to "a Nazi rally." He would know.

[Athena]

Quote by: christibe This isn't really accurate, though it is probably a better understanding than average Americans have of the alliances during WWII. The US govt. pretended to not really care that much about the battle going on in Europe, because of 'all we lost in WWI.' Really though, we wanted to see which direction it was going to head, which is why we supported everyone. (Also, we didn't halt trade with Germany at any point during the war once we entered... interesting) Mostly, it ended up that Germany took over France, and was encroaching on Russia, which we were kind of afraid of, and we couldn't really just sit on the fence anymore. There is evidence that shows that FDR knew, or could have ascertained very easily, that Japan planned to attack us. (..hmm... 9/11 conspiracies? It turns the question from 'how could the US military, intercepting all kinds of messages from everyone all the time NOT know about the Japanese sending a full-on fleet towards Hawaii, especially when there was kind of a WAR going on? to... and maybe it's too much of a stretch... but how could planes going off course not attract attention- automatically it is supposed to scramble some USAF, NORAD controls, etc., many things are supposed to happen, he doesn't care and tries to read a kids book, he doesn't institute emergency at first notice, he lets our only connection the people he blames go back home, where we will never see them again? is it conspiracy, or is it just the same old effing play-book?) Sorry there, but many people believe that we knew Japan was going to attack, and we wanted them to because then we would have an immediate 'in' to the war. Nobody has alleged, at least from what I've read, that FDR knew in advance the extent of the Japanese attack. Mostly, the US was already worried about Russia's potential, and so we had to be against them and their allies. It wasn't known to the US if Russia had developed the atom bomb yet... and after much consideration and fear that they might use it first, we dropped two on Japan. Thus began the arms race and the Cold War. Athena, I think you are very well advised. God, I really feel duped right now.. because I thought there was still something pure or ideal about my country.

The air warfare of WWII was a complete surprise to the US. I have books on the subject, okay? Even if the US government had Japanese plans spelled out in easy language, they wouldn't have believed the attack possible. The US was really retarded when it came to war issues, because it trusted the oceans would protect it from any serious attacks. We bungled the war so badly, those in high places determined this would never happen again.

This is really why the 1958 National Defense Education Act was passed. People wanted to make this change in education in the first world war, but our military and food technologies were so bad, our war effort depended on patriotism so education was used to make good citizens, patriotic citizens. The military technology in WWII radically changed our defense needs, and so education was changed for military reasons.

Blaming Bush for what is happening is retarded. During the Eisenhower administration, we did not demobilize our military industry following the Koran war, but embedded it in our country. We spend far more on the military and advancing military technology than any other country. This involves Haliboughton (sp?) (Cheney's company) because modern warfare is just as much about industrial out put and management of supplies, as is about soldiers. I got this information from a book about Germany published in 1912. We don't know what we need to know, because we have ignored Germany's history, and what it has to do with Prussians. However, in 1900-1940, people were very aware of what Prussians had to do with modern ways, especially in buraeucracy and war.

PS there was no thought of Russia having a nuclear bomb, until long after the war, when it got the necessary information from spies who feared if the US were the only country with nuclear weapons, it would misuse this technology. The fear of Russia's nuclear ability sky rocketed with Sputnik, because you must have a missel to deliever bombs. This is what resulted in the 1958 National Defense Education Act.

[christibe]

Athena, I wasn't arguing with you. :) I said that you are very well-advised!

In one of my history classes in college, my professor was amazingly awesome. He played Bob Dylan, talked about protesting Vietnam, and our texts were Howard Zinn's History of the United States series, among other things. Our exams were all oral and required we know everything, even though we would only be asked one question. It was in that class that my eyes were opened to the fact that the 'education' I had received was nothing other than politicized political history for the purpose of, among other things, creating a patriot, because the only truly loyal masses are ignorant. He taught through social history, or, history told by the people of the times in the traditional way that we used to learn about the past. It was truly fascinating, and also very horrifying, especially the journals of American soldiers WWI and WWII... I hope mankind never again uses warfare like that...

But, in that class, it was told that the US did know that Japan would attack. We did still trust the oceans to a great extent, but we also knew that Germany was using submarine warfare and since we were trying to figure out how to spot them still as we waited for GB to develop sonar, nod to the British for always keeping at par with German technological developments, otherwise the Allies would have lost WWII. But, because of that, and because Japan was somewhat allied with Germany, we had no reason to trust that they didn't have subs... we didn't know how they would attack. We knew that Germany was working on nuclear tech, as some of those physicists expatriated and came to us and told us so, and so we were worried about Russia also working on it. We worried about everyone, because we didn't really stand anywhere or fit in, because we were helping everyone out from the beginning. It's late right now and so I'm not going to search for backup... But, I do know that Russia was a deciding factor in dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Also, Prussia is the kingdom of sorts that led to modern-day Germany, before the 19th Century, modern Germany was a collection of small 'statelets' of tribes, if you will, connected by a common language and geography, mostly. The end of the Enlightenment and the rise of Romanticism which led to the situation where the French and the Americans revolted sort of made the Prussians aware that they wanted to combine the communities, and they started searching for their true ide