New left/Trotskyism VS Stalinism/Maoism/Old Left.

[Maybe-not]

Even if this is mostly aimed at "LtMisha" I'd like to hear others to.

What are the arguments for still believing in the old systems, and still looking to people as Stalin, Mao, Lenin, and so on, for idols?

Personally i'm a complete New-Left man. New left commonly accepted as "Liberal Communism".

[SoylentGreen]

How does communism become liberal?

[Maybe-not]

Basically by not monitoring it's citizens, and killing/arresting everyone who's a "Contra-Revolutionary" or "Capitalist" as we saw in Soviet Russia, and in China.

[SoylentGreen]

So who are these liberal communists? The usual gang of suspects: Bill Gates and George Soros, the CEOs of Google, IBM, Intel, eBay, as well as court-philosophers like Thomas Friedman. What makes this group interesting is that their ideology is becoming indistinguishable from that of Antonio Negri, who has praised postmodern digital capitalism, which, according to Negri, is becoming almost indistinguishable from communism. By Negri’s reckoning, both the old Right—with its ridiculous belief in authority, order and parochial patriotism—and the old Left—with its big Struggle against Capitalism—are the true conservatives today, completely out of touch with the new realities as they fight their shadow-theatre struggles. The signifier of this new reality in the liberal communist Newspeak is “smart.” Smart means dynamic and nomadic against centralized bureaucracy; dialogue and cooperation against central authority; flexibility against routine; culture and knowledge against old industrial production; and spontaneous interaction against fixed hierarchy. Liberal communists are big executives reforming the spirit of contest, or, to put it the other way round, countercultural geeks who took over big corporations. Their dogma is a new, postmodernized, version of Adam Smith’s invisible hand: Market and social responsibility are not opposites, they can be employed together for mutual benefit. Collaboration with employees, dialogue with customers, respect for the environment and transparent deal-making are now the keys to a successful business. Liberal communists are pragmatic, they hate ideology. There is no single exploited Working Class today, only concrete problems to be solved, such as starvation in Africa, the plight of Muslim women or religious fundamentalist violence. When there is a humanitarian crisis in Africa—and liberal communists love humanitarian crises, they bring out the best in them!—instead of employing anti-imperialist rhetoric, we should simply examine what really solves the problem: Engage people, governments and business in a common enterprise, approach the crisis in a creative, unconventional way, and don’t worry about labels.

Hey wow I didn't realise you are rich. How about throwing a few bucks my way, it would be the LC thing to do:)

[sevendogs]

Communism have never been liberal. Do you have an idea why it can be liberal?

[sevendogs]

If not supervised by violent governemnt measures, citizens would never accept communism. Perhaps, two elements can be accepted by the society voluntarily: free health care and free access to education. Even the most free society would need some regulations necessary for its own survival. However, this is done without ideological doctrine of Communism.

[grandpa]

Quote by: sevendogs If not supervised by violent governemnt measures, citizens would never accept communism. Perhaps, two elements can be accepted by the society voluntarily: free health care and free access to education.

If you mean state Communism, the kind that seeks to become a "world power," some would always resist that for reasons we have seen. But if you mean communism in some other sense--a truly egalitarian, anti-state sense-- it could become fairly popular, so long as capitalist elites are undermined on a large scale.

Grandpa h.

[Maybe-not]

Quote by: SoylentGreen Hey wow I didn't realise you are rich. How about throwing a few bucks my way, it would be the LC thing to do:)

Dude, i'm broke as f**k. And where the hell did you get that piece of nonsense?

[Maybe-not]

Quote by: sevendogs Communism have never been liberal. Do you have an idea why it can be liberal?

Not economically liberal. Please seperate Capitalist and Liberalism.

Quote by: sevendogs If not supervised by violent governemnt measures, citizens would never accept communism. Perhaps, two elements can be accepted by the society voluntarily: free health care and free access to education. Even the most free society would need some regulations necessary for its own survival. However, this is done without ideological doctrine of Communism.

This is a claim. No proof for this is to be found, only more claims. Nothing is impossible, it's just how to do it.

Quote by: grandpa If you mean state Communism, the kind that seeks to become a "world power," some would always resist that for reasons we have seen. But if you mean communism in some other sense--a truly egalitarian, anti-state sense-- it could become fairly popular, so long as capitalist elites are undermined on a large scale. Grandpa h.

Agreed. If the "state that owns everything" isn't just the new elite (The was Stalin was the new Tzar) and a true body of the people, i would be possible.

[arielmessenger]

Communitarian Capitalism: a Dual Economic System


10% of top exec salaries + 10% of stock market profits could easily pay for the the entire U.S. Social Security System with cradle to grave medical insurance coverage.

Since we know that the Capitalist economic system embraces and exalts liars, e.g., salesmen, lawyers and politicians, let's get rid of it and switch to a more honorable and of course fairer system: the Communitarian Capitalist system proposed here in outline form, is a model for such a better economic system:

The basic idea behind Communitarian Capitalism as a Dual Economic System is the simple humanitarian one that every human being on earth can be adequately fed and sheltered and given a decent life if we, as a universal human community, agree to share our knowledge and access to basic natural resources and basic community supporting technologies.

Two-Tier Economic System

All who read and digest the historical record of human technological advancement understand that it is not because information does not exist for setting up community self- sufficiency systems but that free market economic systems discourage such cooperative innovations in order for a relatively few to benefit in monopoly ownerships of the means of production.

But our aim here is to create a two-tier economic system: One where the basic support systems of human community life and well-being are cooperatively produced instead of capitalistically produced for monetary profit.

This leaves room for a free-enterprise system for production and distribution of all the goods and services over and above the basic minimum level, e.g., one may be entitled to a basic wardrobe set of clothes but anything fancy would be up to the individual to acquire through the free-market economy in non-essential items.

The guiding principle is not equal distribution of society's wealth but equitable distribution that allows for adjustments to actual economic realities and not a rigid coercive template forced on people whether they like it or not.

Pretty darn simple but convincing people to see the advantages of such a system takes complex explanations because of so much capitalist system supporting cultural conditioning in our society.

Jesus and the early Christians would know what I'm talking about and so do my tribal friends but for the U.S. citizen, they find it next to impossible to think they could do without their Fords, Sonys and Safeways even though Winco and our Co-ops are doing quite well.

Habitat for Humanity returns the spirit of the homestead house and barnraising, pitching in to help your neighbor. It's only a start but so much time and money could be saved while reinforcing community bonds.

Beyond Communitarian Capitalism..
The Gift Economy of the Future

The ultimate economic system communitarian capitalism leads to will be a Gift Economy where life-long social security is a given and everyone is economically secure in their lives.

In a Gift economy, things are exchanged as special gifts because the basics and even a lot of luxuries of life are easily obtained through advanced automation and robotics.

With material want removed from the human condition, humanity can blossom in its new role as guardians and caretakers of all life on Earth and wherever we go in the Universe.

* * *

[LadiesMan217]

What the hell does everyone have against Capitalism?

[Maybe-not]

Quote by: arielmessenger Communitarian Capitalism: a Dual Economic System 10% of top exec salaries + 10% of stock market profits could easily pay for the the entire U.S. Social Security System with cradle to grave medical insurance coverage. Since we know that the Capitalist economic system embraces and exalts liars, e.g., salesmen, lawyers and politicians, let's get rid of it and switch to a more honorable and of course fairer system: the Communitarian Capitalist system proposed here in outline form, is a model for such a better economic system: The basic idea behind Communitarian Capitalism as a Dual Economic System is the simple humanitarian one that every human being on earth can be adequately fed and sheltered and given a decent life if we, as a universal human community, agree to share our knowledge and access to basic natural resources and basic community supporting technologies. Two-Tier Economic System All who read and digest the historical record of human technological advancement understand that it is not because information does not exist for setting up community self- sufficiency systems but that free market economic systems discourage such cooperative innovations in order for a relatively few to benefit in monopoly ownerships of the means of production. But our aim here is to create a two-tier economic system: One where the basic support systems of human community life and well-being are cooperatively produced instead of capitalistically produced for monetary profit. This leaves room for a free-enterprise system for production and distribution of all the goods and services over and above the basic minimum level, e.g., one may be entitled to a basic wardrobe set of clothes but anything fancy would be up to the individual to acquire through the free-market economy in non-essential items. The guiding principle is not equal distribution of society's wealth but equitable distribution that allows for adjustments to actual economic realities and not a rigid coercive template forced on people whether they like it or not. Pretty darn simple but convincing people to see the advantages of such a system takes complex explanations because of so much capitalist system supporting cultural conditioning in our society. Jesus and the early Christians would know what I'm talking about and so do my tribal friends but for the U.S. citizen, they find it next to impossible to think they could do without their Fords, Sonys and Safeways even though Winco and our Co-ops are doing quite well. Habitat for Humanity returns the spirit of the homestead house and barnraising, pitching in to help your neighbor. It's only a start but so much time and money could be saved while reinforcing community bonds. Beyond Communitarian Capitalism.. The Gift Economy of the Future The ultimate economic system communitarian capitalism leads to will be a Gift Economy where life-long social security is a given and everyone is economically secure in their lives. In a Gift economy, things are exchanged as special gifts because the basics and even a lot of luxuries of life are easily obtained through advanced automation and robotics. With material want removed from the human condition, humanity can blossom in its new role as guardians and caretakers of all life on Earth and wherever we go in the Universe. * * *

A nearly acceptable system. But still, as a free market required of the majority they have to work, Capitalism, or any version of a "free" market, will lead to exploitation of the Majority.

Quote by: ladiesman217 What the hell does everyone have against Capitalism?

It hurt the Majority. In order to be able to make money of an idea, you need someone to produce these goods. If you wan't a surplus, you need to play them less than the % of the goods they produce. In order for Capitalism to work, there needs to be an exploited Majority.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: Maybe-not Dude, i'm broke as f**k. And where the hell did you get that piece of nonsense?

The Liberal Communists of Porto Davos -- In These Times

[Maybe-not]

Quote by: SoylentGreen The Liberal Communists of Porto Davos -- In These Times

:confused: This better be a joke... :rolleyes: Can't believe they are actually serious. :eek:

[LadiesMan217]

It hurt the Majority. In order to be able to make money of an idea, you need someone to produce these goods. If you wan't a surplus, you need to play them less than the % of the goods they produce. In order for Capitalism to work, there needs to be an exploited Majority.

No one is exploited. You get what you work for and if you work hard enough you get a raise or promotion or you can start you own business and make money off of your own new ideas. Capitalism provides motivation for people to work harder and the opportunity to make as much money as you want. In Communism everyone gets the same no matter how hard they work and everything is owned by the government and private property does not exist. Call me crazy but I like the idea of Capitalism better.

[another day]

communism by definition cannot be liberal...it requires a totalitarian government to enforce the policies, because communism by definition restricts every single basic freedom of the people.

[smallpox]

communism by definition cannot be liberal...it requires a totalitarian government to enforce the policies, because communism by definition restricts every single basic freedom of the people.

Do you even know the definition of communism? Or are you just jumping to conclusions based on what the media says?
Communism by definition does not have a government.

[LadiesMan217]

Communism by definition does not have a government.

Then Communism by definition is retarded.

[LadiesMan217]

But I think you might be confused with Anarchy.

[smallpox]

Sigh.... I blame American egocentric idea that if it's not American it's the way the conservatives define it.
Perhaps if you read the manifesto before making baseless assertions.

The Manifesto suggested a course of action for a proletarian (working class) revolution to overthrow the bourgeois social order and to eventually bring about a classless and stateless society.

The Communist Manifesto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia