Hu Jintao executed prudish Zheng Xiaoyu hastily for international view !

[宣昶玮]

Zheng Xiaoyu, former director of China's State Food and Drug Administration (SFDA), was executed on Tuesday morning, July 10 2007.

How hapless! Zheng Xiaoyu's crime is just average in China today.If he had flattered Jiang or Hu more,he would die? Let us see an example.

The railway minister,Liu Zhijun has married five times, yes, in self-claimed commie China. His brother is a gangleader,who was given a suspended death sentence in April 2006.

Son of Cai Qinghua, former vice minister of railway, do the same thing as Zheng Xiaoyu's son,running fundless company,but more cleverly,with sons of other officials. Every section chief of China railway snatches more money a year than Zheng Xiao's declared number.

But Liu Zhijun cringes before HU JINTAO,so he is safe.

[rmnunez]

There may be corruption problems in high circles of Chinese administration, but as far as the execution goes I'm shocked and worried. I'd suggest leading figures in multinational corporations which invest in China seek a clarification on the applicability of such laws to foreign investments and operations.

[tinybear]

The law applies when the Chinese authorities say that they do. Conversely, they do not apply when the authorities say that they don't.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: rmnunez There may be corruption problems in high circles of Chinese administration, but as far as the execution goes I'm shocked and worried. I'd suggest leading figures in multinational corporations which invest in China seek a clarification on the applicability of such laws to foreign investments and operations.

Oh come on now, do not attempt to give me some false glimmer of hope.

[Scribbler1]

It would appear a purely internal issue to me. It's not like it's the first time they've bumped somebody off, and his crime WAS pretty bad.

And it doesn't affect our business with them at this point, anyway.

[smallpox]

Internal issue? This is nothing but international show off. It's not like the death penalty would solve the problem of quality/security standards in China and it's not like it would even deter crime or negligence. China just wants to show foreign buyers that they have "dealt" with the problem.

[Scribbler1]

And how is that not "internal"? Did anyone outside of China tells these people to execute this guy? This apparently had nothing to do with the tainted food and other products exported to the US.

Besides, IMO, this guy kind of deserved it considering what he did. Being responsible for all those deaths is deserving of more than a slap on the wrist at any rate.

[smallpox]

And how is that not "internal"? Did anyone outside of China tells these people to execute this guy? This apparently had nothing to do with the tainted food and other products exported to the US.

Maybe you should have read the next sentence. I don't know how to word it differently.......China murder official to regain foreign trust in Chinese made products? What do you mean he had nothing to do with it? He's suppose to stop tainted food from being consumed. He neglected his job.

Besides, IMO, this guy kind of deserved it considering what he did. Being responsible for all those deaths is deserving of more than a slap on the wrist at any rate.

"Deserve". I don't understand, how the judicial system has somehow turned into a competition of what level of action deserves what punishment. The judicial system shouldn't try to answer to emotional pleas, rather ensure that preventative initiatives are taken in order to cease the commission of crime. Appealing to public anger does not serve this purpose, it only victimizes the family of capital-punished victims.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: smallpox Maybe you should have read the next sentence. I don't know how to word it differently.......China murder official to regain foreign trust in Chinese made products? What do you mean he had nothing to do with it? He's suppose to stop tainted food from being consumed. He neglected his job.

I read your whole response and your OPINION that they executed this man to gain the west's trust is only an opinion.
It will take more than executions of officials to gain the trust of anyone if they keep sending garbage over here. If China wants us to trust their food exports, they just have to stop sending tainted food. I suspect they know that.
And this wasn't reported as a case of not doing his job. It was a serious criminal act.

"Deserve". I don't understand, how the judicial system has somehow turned into a competition of what level of action deserves what punishment. The judicial system shouldn't try to answer to emotional pleas, rather ensure that preventative initiatives are taken in order to cease the commission of crime. Appealing to public anger does not serve this purpose, it only victimizes the family of capital-punished victims.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

My understanding is the man was executed because he accepted BRIBES which allowed bad drugs to kill Chinese people. It had nothing to do with us.

[smallpox]

I read your whole response and your OPINION that they executed this man to gain the west's trust is only an opinion. It will take more than executions of officials to gain the trust of anyone if they keep sending garbage over here. If China wants us to trust their food exports, they just have to stop sending tainted food. I suspect they know that. And this wasn't reported as a case of not doing his job. It was a serious criminal act.

In all fairness, anything beyond an axiom can be taken as an "OPINION", even what you just said there. I don't see it as a relevant point against my "OPINION".
Negligence can be a crime.
Apparently it works. I don't see any trade embargoes against Chinese made food. As a matter of fact, half of my dry storage of food is of Chinese origin

I have no idea what you are talking about. My understanding is the man was executed because he accepted BRIBES which allowed bad drugs to kill Chinese people. It had nothing to do with us.

So he accepted BRIBES to be NEGLIGENT in his job. Bribes occur all the time in China. Unless it's of a very very very large sum, then it's no grounds for execution unless they have another political agenda behind their actions. If you live in a country with a judicial system, it's about you also. My main point is that the judicial system shouldn't make decisions based on what your anger feels. So what if you feel he deserves to die? Is that all you care about? Or do you care if it happens again or not?

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: smallpox In all fairness, anything beyond an axiom can be taken as an "OPINION", even what you just said there. I don't see it as a relevant point against my "OPINION".

You said "It's not like the death penalty would solve the problem of quality/security standards in China and it's not like it would even deter crime or negligence. China just wants to show foreign buyers that they have "dealt" with the problem." Which may or may not be correct. But as an OPINION, unsupported by facts it is not really a debatable point.
You don't know what kind of deterrent it would be and you don't know if they executed him to impress us.

Negligence can be a crime.

Apparently so, and they dealt with it. Again, it was for BRIBERY and it was about drugs sold in China, NOT in the United States.
If the Chinese wanted to execute the person responsible for tainted food, they would have SAID it was for that reason, wouldn't they?

Apparently it works. I don't see any trade embargoes against Chinese made food. As a matter of fact, half of my dry storage of food is of Chinese origin

You have provided nothing to show there is ANY connection.

So he accepted BRIBES to be NEGLIGENT in his job. Bribes occur all the time in China. Unless it's of a very very very large sum, then it's no grounds for execution unless they have another political agenda behind their actions.

And what do you have to show that there is another agenda?
Again, it is a very serious crime and they dealt with it in their own way. It doesn't affect us, so I fail to see the reason we should think it does.
Don't get me wrong. I have no use for the government of Communist China but I'm dealing with the points you have brought up.

If you live in a country with a judicial system, it's about you also.

No it isn't. The judicial systems in our country is different. We cannot force the Chinese to adopt our system any more than they can force us to adopt theirs.

My main point is that the judicial system shouldn't make decisions based on what your anger feels.

I'm not angry in the least, and even if I was it wouldn't compel the Chinese to do anything about it based on my personal feelings. Which is why I see it as an internal matter.

So what if you feel he deserves to die? Is that all you care about? Or do you care if it happens again or not?

I don't care either way. I don't have the power to force China to play nice. I think that's the job of the Chinese to do that.
As far as him deserving to die, while it might be a little excessive, he DID take a bag full of yuan and the result was many Chinese dying because of that. When people die it becomes much more than simple bribery.
This isn't about selling defective shoes.

[smallpox]

You said "It's not like the death penalty would solve the problem of quality/security standards in China and it's not like it would even deter crime or negligence. China just wants to show foreign buyers that they have "dealt" with the problem." Which may or may not be correct. But as an OPINION, unsupported by facts it is not really a debatable point. You don't know what kind of deterrent it would be and you don't know if they executed him to impress us.

It's an educated opinion. Capital punishment is useless at deterring crime in general. The only absolute deterrent the death penalty offers is a specific deterrent (we can be assured that the dead corpse will not again commit a crime again). But considering that the crime was committed because the offender held a post of authority, then we can assure that it would not occur once the offender has been stripped of his power to commit the offence. So basically, once he lost his job, he could no longer be bribed to be negligent again.
There are no statistical conclusions that would suggest the death penalty a means of deterring crime. Prove me wrong if you can, but I can't really cite something that doesn't exist. I can say things like: Canada and Japan don't have capital punishment and they have lower crime rates than the USA, if that means anything to you. Then you'll probably post some stats on how a state in a while with capital punishment happens to have lesser crime rates than the next without capital punishment. But then I'll just argue that several factors affect crime rates such as how many people report crimes, the efficiency of the police force at finding crime and so on. It all boils down to how crimes are committed and logic. Does RESPONDING to crime PREVENT crime? No one can really argue that certainty deters crime much better than harsh punishment. So can I prove that Zheng Xiao yu would have continued his offences if it were not for capital punishment?...well, once fired he couldn't have carried his offences any longer. Making this just another useless murder by the state. Would this have deterred others? Like I said, certainty is much more efficient at this.

Apparently so, and they dealt with it. Again, it was for BRIBERY and it was about drugs sold in China, NOT in the United States. If the Chinese wanted to execute the person responsible for tainted food, they would have SAID it was for that reason, wouldn't they?

Of course they won't say it, cause then we'll turn around and say "look at those barbarians." For all we know, the one responsible for our tainted food was coincidently executed for another crime so we should fear not of tainted food from China.

You have provided nothing to show there is ANY connection.

Well, it's a fundamental principal that if we distrusted Chinese made goods, we would stop purchasing them.

And what do you have to show that there is another agenda?

How perfect is it that he gets executed just after there have been a series of tainted food being exported from China.

Don't get me wrong. I have no use for the government of Communist China but I'm dealing with the points you have brought up.

How is China even Communist anymore?
Either ways, this is a strawman. I'm not arguing his charges in Chinese court. I'm saying that killing him won't solve anything, what he "deserves" should be the last thing anyone worries about, and this seems like a show to regain foreign trust in Chinese manufactured food.

No it isn't. The judicial systems in our country is different. We cannot force the Chinese to adopt our system any more than they can force us to adopt theirs.

Strawman. I was referring to the death penalty. I never said anything about changing their laws (they're doing it on their own anyways).

I'm not angry in the least, and even if I was it wouldn't compel the Chinese to do anything about it based on my personal feelings. Which is why I see it as an internal matter.

When you say he gets what he deserve, it's an appeal to your emotions.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: smallpox It's an educated opinion. Capital punishment is useless at deterring crime in general. The only absolute deterrent the death penalty offers is a specific deterrent (we can be assured that the dead corpse will not again commit a crime again). But considering that the crime was committed because the offender held a post of authority, then we can assure that it would not occur once the offender has been stripped of his power to commit the offence. So basically, once he lost his job, he could no longer be bribed to be negligent again.

That's a slap on the wrist for any crime that results in loss of life.

There are no statistical conclusions that would suggest the death penalty a means of deterring crime. Prove me wrong if you can, but I can't really cite something that doesn't exist. I can say things like: Canada and Japan don't have capital punishment and they have lower crime rates than the USA, if that means anything to you.

This is why the death penalty is debated so often, but that wasn't my point, was it?
Don't switch this to a death penalty argument. YOU started the thread, and it wasn't about the DP, it was about China executing this man as a way to look good in the eyes of the US. Strawman indeed.

Of course they won't say it, cause then we'll turn around and say "look at those barbarians." For all we know, the one responsible for our tainted food was coincidently executed for another crime so we should fear not of tainted food from China.

"For all we know" is a weak argument when discussing specifics. Did they or did they not kill this man to gain favor with the US?

Well, it's a fundamental principal that if we distrusted Chinese made goods, we would stop purchasing them.

We might, if the Chinese government was responsible. These tainted food examples are hardly representative of China's total output to the US. If the Chinese government says they are cracking down on these practices we will take them at their word unless it continues. THEN you'll probably see some boycotts at least.

How perfect is it that he gets executed just after there have been a series of tainted food being exported from China.

I wouldn't know, and neither would you.

How is China even Communist anymore?

For starters, the CIA factbook says so, plus THIS site and this Wikipedia article.


Since we can't even agree on what type of government China has, I'll leave you to your opinions. There is nothing to debate here.

[rmnunez]

The facts of the case are conclusive, Zheng Xiaoyu was guilty of causing many deaths. However, his role was not as direct as that of an assasin. What is the quality of evidence showing Xiaoyu's intent, knowledge, awareness..? Likely documenting this requires reference to the implementation of management decisions despite counsel to the contrary. Without dismissing the magnitude of the wrongs wrought in this case, I'd be mindful of notions like business judgment, practice in the industry, level of oversight and risk.

[tinybear]

There are many others whose crimes are more serious, but they get away with it because the authorities turn a blind eye.

[smallpox]

That's a slap on the wrist for any crime that results in loss of life.

Again, the goal here is not punishment and seeing people suffer. It's pointless, barbaric and a waste of money.
Focus on preventing crime, even if that means not killing people and victimizing their families.

This is why the death penalty is debated so often, but that wasn't my point, was it? Don't switch this to a death penalty argument. YOU started the thread, and it wasn't about the DP, it was about China executing this man as a way to look good in the eyes of the US. Strawman indeed.

I didn't start this thread.....
And the death penalty is half of the debate. If you would not like to debate this side of the debate, then don't answer my posts.

"For all we know" is a weak argument when discussing specifics. Did they or did they not kill this man to gain favor with the US?

Not the US, but world wide. The Chinese depend strongly on export to support their economy and that has made them very cautious about their international image. Look at all the measures they took against SARS, even though the disease had a 98% survival rate. If only they'd do that for mine workers. "For all we know" is not even an argument, it IS all we know unless you provide more information.

We might, if the Chinese government was responsible. These tainted food examples are hardly representative of China's total output to the US. If the Chinese government says they are cracking down on these practices we will take them at their word unless it continues. THEN you'll probably see some boycotts at least.

It's funny how we use to have the exact same worries about Japanese made goods.

For starters, the CIA factbook says so, plus THIS site and this Wikipedia article. Since we can't even agree on what type of government China has, I'll leave you to your opinions. There is nothing to debate here.

Think for yourself. What is communism? Abolition of classes, absence of the market economy, and absence of the government. China has classes, a HUGE market economy and a very present government. Type of communist? You mean Maoist? Have you ever heard of Deng Xiaoping? They call themselves communist.....North Korea calls itself a democracy.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: smallpox Again, the goal here is not punishment and seeing people suffer. It's pointless, barbaric and a waste of money. Focus on preventing crime, even if that means not killing people and victimizing their families.

That's your opinion. I don't share it.

I didn't start this thread..... And the death penalty is half of the debate. If you would not like to debate this side of the debate, then don't answer my posts.

Apologies. I was thinking you were the OP.

No, this is NOT about the death penalty. The argument was he was killed to suck up to the US.
Death penalty threads go nowhere and they just water down a topic. If you want to do that, fine.

I'll take your advice and stop responding to you after this post.

Think for yourself. What is communism? Abolition of classes, absence of the market economy, and absence of the government. China has classes, a HUGE market economy and a very present government. Type of communist? You mean Maoist? Have you ever heard of Deng Xiaoping? They call themselves communist.....North Korea calls itself a democracy.

I'll take the sources I listed over yours, thank you.

[smallpox]

That's your opinion. I don't share it.

Give me one good reason for capital punishment then.

No, this is NOT about the death penalty. The argument was he was killed to suck up to the US. Death penalty threads go nowhere and they just water down a topic. If you want to do that, fine. I'll take your advice and stop responding to you after this post.

And part of that is that killing him was useless. He wouldn't commission these offences again once he lost his position. So why kill him?

I'll take the sources I listed over yours, thank you.

So China has no government? Brilliant.

[smallpox]

Do we even know the total value of bribes that has been proven?

[rmnunez]

I don't, how much was that?