Israel: The Most Racist Illegal Nation.

[Nono]

Quote by: Hook The Europeans leftist cry foul against Israel because they are deathly afraid of the Islamic Facist. They believe if we please the terrorist by condemning Israel ... (etc.)

If you read the papers once in a while, you'd realize that Israel (and its US sponsors) is Islamo-Fascism's best friend. Osama would be nowhere without the Palestinian issue. (Iraq has been a huge help too.)

"European leftists cry foul against" taking people's land away and basically locking them up in a huge open-air prison camp. Yeah.

And by the way, Israel itself, and all it once stood for, is the worse off as a result, obviously. It's bitten off way more than it can chew. It has totally vacated the moral high ground. All the old ideals are gone.

If you engaged in a bit more reflection and a bit less rant, you'd see this.

[shrike]

Quote by: nono If you read the papers once in a while, you'd realize that Israel (and its US sponsors) is Islamo-Fascism's best friend. Osama would be nowhere without the Palestinian issue. (Iraq has been a huge help too.)

What faulty logic. Its like saying Hitler would be nowhere without a Jewish question and Nazis is a best friends of Jews:eek:Islamo-facsists don't need external reasons to their ideology. The driven by their faith.

"European leftists cry foul against" taking people's land away and basically locking them up in a huge open-air prison camp. Yeah.

Well don't you get tired to post the same propaganda over and over again.

[Nono]

Quote by: shrike Its like saying Hitler would be nowhere without a Jewish question

Precisely. Hitler rode to power on the back of longstanding German anti-Semitism. Grievance was what his politics were all about.
So wake up.

Islamo-facsists don't need external reasons to their ideology. The driven by their faith.

Who cares about their faith?! It's their popularity you'd better think about.

Well don't you get tired to post the same propaganda over and over again.

I never tire of stating the facts.

[shrike]

Precisely. Hitler rode to power on the back of longstanding German anti-Semitism. Grievance was what his politics were all about. So wake up. Quote: Islamo-facsists don't need external reasons to their ideology. The driven by their faith. Who cares about their faith?! It's their popularity you'd better think about

.
So do you think that succumbing to their will diminish their popularity?
The Hamas was elected after Israel withdrew from Gaza.

I never tire of stating the facts.

Yes Goebelss too never tired to state his facts.

[Nono]

Quote by: shrike Yes Goebelss too never tired to state his facts.

So compare me to Goebbels. (ouch...) That doesn't change the facts.

[phoenix_fire]

Hitler planned (and to some extent did) to move on to blacks, gypsies, and a whole host of other so-called "undesirables", and I imagine that the radical Muslim leaders are the same. Even if they did succeed in driving the Jews into the sea and even if the U.S. did entirely pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan, they would still find someone to make an effigy of and go after. Even without Israel and without U.S. involvement in Muslim countries....I don't think I can stress this enough...but I'll certainly try...................................................................THEY DON'T LIKE US!!! Will giving them Israel placate them? Absolutely not.

[Nono]

Quote by: Phoenix Will giving them Israel placate them? Absolutely not.

Holy shit, Phoenix-shrike-Hook-&-Co, would you guys kindly take a Valium or two, calm down, and ditch this egregious strawmanism???!!!

You may find a nutbar or two on this board who wants to turn the clock back, but it ain't me. Israel is here to stay. (Hear that??) But if it wants to dream of a day without barbed wire and checkpoints, it's gonna have to face reality.

Reality is the open-air prison camp that the occupied territories (and Gaza, which they reoccupy any day they want) amount to. [Yeah shrike, I learned every word at Goebbels' knee.]

It's land (occupied territories) for peace. There's no other way.

Do stop foaming at the mouth and think about it.

[phoenix_fire]

I do not imply that about you individually. But I guarantee that it is a goal of the radical Muslims. No matter how much of the land they are given, no matter how much freedom, they will still claim oppression. The land was formerly Muslim, and they believe, religiously, that it should in its entirety be reclaimed. I personally believe that peaceful coexistence should be the aim. I truly am for it. But practically, I don't think the radical Muslims do. To them, sovereignty of the area, the entire area, must return to Muslims. I believe, however, that the Jews should retain their right to sovereignty. But so long as they try to maintain it, radical Muslims will religiously attempt to take it away.

[Nono]

Quote by: Phoenix I guarantee that it is a goal of the radical Muslims. No matter how much of the land they are given.

Well then, don't you think it might be a good idea to de-radicalize things a bit and thus yank the political carpet out from under their feet?

How do you imagine that might be done? By continuing to hand them fistfulls of propaganda ammunition as the Israeli government has for ages now, with unstinting help from the Bush regime?

The only hope is to cultivate reasonable partners for negotiation, and one doesn't do that by quadrupling the number of settlers (from a hundred thousand to half a million) in 15 years, by taking up something like 40% of the occupied territories with settlements, military bases, settlers-only roads, etc. -- all of it in breach of international law and all of it guaranteed to have the Palestinians seething forever.

I mean, the majority of Israelis clearly don't want peace on any conceivably workable conditions. Instead they seem to be planning on a state of endless low-level warfare.

Otherwise they'd start using their heads.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Most Radicals don't need a carpet under their feet, but I agree having Israel deal better with the palistineans would stop driving normal people into radicalism. Of course, how do you convince a country that's had more than a few concerted efforts to destroy it that lowering it's aggressiveness is the way to help?

[phoenix_fire]

You assume that common people in these nations are the same as common Americans. You factor out availability of information, freedom of the press and proliferation of technology.

[Gods_Mercenary]

You really think the Palestineans, with families and whatnot, would have elected Hamas if they felt they had anything to lose?

[Copernicus]

Quote by: Bob652 Israel has been doing ethnic cleansing since before 1948. It is a fact. You can't brainwash the people who know better. Only those who get their disinformation from the Zionist media can be duped into believing the Israeli lies. The idea of a Jewish state was and is considered impossible without a Jewish majority. It was a matter of common sense, albeit evil. Any pretense or excuse to wipe out Palestinian villages, and kill men, woman, and children was used, and is used. Thousands were deliberately terrorized to encourage them to leave their homes and homeland. Many left thinking it would be temporary. They believed things would eventually settle down. Getting rid of as many Palestinians as possible was their aim. Peaceful and defenseless villages were destroyed and replaced with Jewish settlements. This is a Zionist holocaust. As far back as the early 30's Zionist terrorist activity was already flourishing. Anyone who knows anything about the involvement of the US in Iran might be a little more understanding of the situation with Iran. Instead of patching up differences with the Iranian government the Zionists have exercised once again their devious control of American policy to the detriment of the US, Iran and the world.. Iran is not a threat to world peace and security. Israel is. I hope there is a very special place in hell for any American politician who continues to commit American blood and money to fight Israeli's wars of aggression as it seeks to dominate the world.

The shit is coming out of your ears, my anti-semitic friend.

If you are truly interested in the conflict BEFORE 1948, look up the Palestinian riots of the 20's and 30's. This was legitimate and unprovoked ethnic cleansing, and was not retaliatory by any stretch of the imagination.

Once again, the Jews CANNOT engage in ethnic cleansing, because a reasonable number among them (a remarkable portion of the group commonly called 'shepardic') share the same ethnicity as the arabs that continually attack them.

Israel has had nuclear weapons for some time. They will not use them, nor have they even shown an inclination to do so. Iran, however, is building nuclear power, clearly for weaponry (for as was said, they surely do not need the fuel in their oily spread) that they most likely have already commenced in constructing. Unlike Israel, their leaders have already stated their intentions to employ such weapons, and sharia is no joke in a country like that.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary You really think the Palestineans, with families and whatnot, would have elected Hamas if they felt they had anything to lose?

You think they might have thought the same about us electing and re-electing Bush?

[Gods_Mercenary]

not really relevant because bush wasn't voted in because of hs hardlne on a much more powerful country that currently occupies land we consider at least partly our own.

[Bob652]

Quote by: Copernicus The shit is coming out of your ears, my anti-semitic friend. If you are truly interested in the conflict BEFORE 1948, look up the Palestinian riots of the 20's and 30's. This was legitimate and unprovoked ethnic cleansing, and was not retaliatory by any stretch of the imagination. Once again, the Jews CANNOT engage in ethnic cleansing, because a reasonable number among them (a remarkable portion of the group commonly called 'shepardic') share the same ethnicity as the arabs that continually attack them. Israel has had nuclear weapons for some time. They will not use them, nor have they even shown an inclination to do so. Iran, however, is building nuclear power, clearly for weaponry (for as was said, they surely do not need the fuel in their oily spread) that they most likely have already commenced in constructing. Unlike Israel, their leaders have already stated their intentions to employ such weapons, and sharia is no joke in a country like that.

Iran has been threatened with invasion. They would have to be stupid not to attempt to do anything possible to deter it, just like the Israeli government has done.
Zionists in the 20's and 30's instigated so as to have an excuse to "retaliate". They had one version of the "truth" for public consumption, and another for their warriors. It was a sinister and clever strategy. Ben Gurion was a master of it.
I am not antisemitic. You have brainwashed into following the Zionist bullshit hook, line, and sinker. I would like to inform you, in case no one else has, that the Palestinian people and their children are not subhuman creatures. They have flesh, blood, and feelings just like you, I, and the other Jews.Their ancestral Villages have been destroyed, homes burned down and looted by Israeli soldiers, their children slaughtered before their eyes. and they have been herded out like cattle. Their paramilitary defenses were little to none, depending on the village, against well equipped and professionally trained (by the British) Zionist forces.
And with all this, Copernicus, you have the balls to call me antisemitic. The shit is not coming out of my ears; it is coming out of you mouth and your brain.

[Copernicus]

Quote by: Bob652 Iran has been threatened with invasion. They would have to be stupid not to attempt to do anything possible to deter it, just like the Israeli government has done. Zionists in the 20's and 30's instigated so as to have an excuse to "retaliate". They had one version of the "truth" for public consumption, and another for their warriors. It was a sinister and clever strategy. Ben Gurion was a master of it. I am not antisemitic. You have brainwashed into following the Zionist bullshit hook, line, and sinker. I would like to inform you, in case no one else has, that the Palestinian people and their children are not subhuman creatures. They have flesh, blood, and feelings just like you, I, and the other Jews.Their ancestral Villages have been destroyed, homes burned down and looted by Israeli soldiers, their children slaughtered before their eyes. and they have been herded out like cattle. Their paramilitary defenses were little to none, depending on the village, against well equipped and professionally trained (by the British) Zionist forces. And with all this, Copernicus, you have the balls to call me antisemitic. The shit is not coming out of my ears; it is coming out of you mouth and your brain.

Been threatened with invasion by whom? If your answer is Israel, you are lying, for no such statement or advance has come from that country's foriegn policy nor have any accomodations for such an offensive action been made by their legislature. Conversely, the leader of Iran denies the holocaust, and has publicly voiced his motivations to blow Israel off the map.

Palestinians subhuman creatures??? Foolish notions like 'subhuman' only come out of the minds of those of the most shameless ignorance, and apparently you feel that it is only logical that others classify human beings into groups of 'human' and 'subhuman' simply because you do (which was made clear by your endorsement of 'seig heil', and classifying human beings as 'sinister' as if the world is divided into fairy-tale good v. evil to suit your predjudices)

"Instigated instigated so as to have an excuse to "retaliate""??? Do you honestly believe that the Jews are willing to allow their own cities to be trashed simply for some sort of warring 'right of way'? The mere fact that you go to such absurdities to justify your own anti-semitism disgusts me. Clearly you do believe that the jews are 'subhuman' if you honestly believe that they would go so far as to pull off such measures.

I am not Jewish, by faith, or by genetic definition. I am not arabic, by faith, or by genetic definition. Neither am I conservative, for those liberals who may assume it simply because I engage in that which they assume they should be against, for they find their conscience better off if they support the underdog. Not only do they in this case support their 'underdog' by holding them to lower moral standards than that of Israel, but furthermore, they have no idea who the underdog really is... the Arabic Coalition is far stronger than Isreal can ever hope to be... it is a great tragedy from the point of a humanitarian such as myself that the mighty oil-drunken Arabic Governments are perfectly willing to purchase weapons and wage wars on account of their governmental anti-semitic policies; using the Palestinians as justification, but refuse to spend that same capital providing aid to those poor nationless souls (who, I daresay, would have land of their own were they not to endorse the dangerous aggressions of such governments).

As a person who considers himself only groupable within this species we call "human beings", I am terribly saddened by the fact that anti-semitism; the world's most irrational and perpetual hate, dissallows the wonders that the jews have brought to their own portion of that region. They have proved that it can be developed despite harsh climate, irrigated despite painful terrain, and thrived in despite all odds. I hope, deeply and truly that there will be peace, that the Palestinians will have land, and on account of the pragmatic necesities of such a hope, that the childish and tyranical governments of the area will learn to accept Israel so that such progress can finally commence.

[Bob652]

Quote by: Copernicus Been threatened with invasion by whom? If your answer is Israel, you are lying, for no such statement or advance has come from that country's foriegn policy nor have any accomodations for such an offensive action been made by their legislature. Conversely, the leader of Iran denies the holocaust, and has publicly voiced his motivations to blow Israel off the map. Palestinians subhuman creatures??? Foolish notions like 'subhuman' only come out of the minds of those of the most shameless ignorance, and apparently you feel that it is only logical that others classify human beings into groups of 'human' and 'subhuman' simply because you do (which was made clear by your endorsement of 'seig heil', and classifying human beings as 'sinister' as if the world is divided into fairy-tale good v. evil to suit your predjudices) "Instigated instigated so as to have an excuse to "retaliate""??? Do you honestly believe that the Jews are willing to allow their own cities to be trashed simply for some sort of warring 'right of way'? The mere fact that you go to such absurdities to justify your own anti-semitism disgusts me. Clearly you do believe that the jews are 'subhuman' if you honestly believe that they would go so far as to pull off such measures. I am not Jewish, by faith, or by genetic definition. I am not arabic, by faith, or by genetic definition. Neither am I conservative, for those liberals who may assume it simply because I engage in that which they assume they should be against, for they find their conscience better off if they support the underdog. Not only do they in this case support their 'underdog' by holding them to lower moral standards than that of Israel, but furthermore, they have no idea who the underdog really is... the Arabic Coalition is far stronger than Isreal can ever hope to be... it is a great tragedy from the point of a humanitarian such as myself that the mighty oil-drunken Arabic Governments are perfectly willing to purchase weapons and wage wars on account of their governmental anti-semitic policies; using the Palestinians as justification, but refuse to spend that same capital providing aid to those poor nationless souls (who, I daresay, would have land of their own were they not to endorse the dangerous aggressions of such governments). As a person who considers himself only groupable within this species we call "human beings", I am terribly saddened by the fact that anti-semitism; the world's most irrational and perpetual hate, dissallows the wonders that the jews have brought to their own portion of that region. They have proved that it can be developed despite harsh climate, irrigated despite painful terrain, and thrived in despite all odds. I hope, deeply and truly that there will be peace, that the Palestinians will have land, and on account of the pragmatic necesities of such a hope, that the childish and tyranical governments of the area will learn to accept Israel so that such progress can finally commence.

You are excused and forgiven for the name calling and the accusations.. The ignorance you have just demonstrated is understandable for two reasons. You have apparently been psychologically lobotomized by the Zionist controlled media; and you have either been incapable or unwilling to seek the unbiased truth.
At the point at which you made the claim that the Arab Coalition is stronger than the Israeli army, I realized that I was either speaking to a child or an ignorant, unread, mentally challenged individual who is attempting to engage is a discussion that is over your head.
I was almost tempted to point out and refute all the silly statements you made, and suggest some appropriate literature on the subject, but most of it has many words and very few pictures. What a shame!!!!

[Contumacious]

Quote by: Copernicus The shit is coming out of your ears, my anti-semitic friend.

Gee, I continously ask the same question and the same is ignored. I wonder why.........

Do you sir have any genealogical evidence that the present residents of the so-called State Of Israel are related to the semitic Ten Lost Tribes of Israel?!?

If you are truly interested in the conflict BEFORE 1948, look up the Palestinian riots of the 20's and 30's. This was legitimate and unprovoked ethnic cleansing, and was not retaliatory by any stretch of the imagination.

I am interested in the conflict BEFORE 1948 . I use Prof Finkelstein's Textbook as reference. He states therein:

"An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

(Updated: September 2002)


Round One - "The way of transfer"

In the first round of conquest, the Zionist movement set its sights on "the way of transfer." For all the public rhetoric about wanting to "live with the Arabs in conditions of unity and mutual honor and together with them to turn the common homeland into a flourishing land" (Twelfth Zionist Congress, 1921), the Zionists from early on were in fact bent on expelling them. "The idea of transfer had accompanied the Zionist movement from its very beginnings," Tom Segev reports. "'Disappearing' the Arabs lay at the heart of the Zionist dream, and was also a necessary condition of its existence…. With few exceptions, none of the Zionists disputed the desirability of forced transfer - or its morality." The key was to get the timing right. Ben-Gurion, reflecting on the expulsion option in the late 1930s, wrote: "What is inconceivable in normal times is possible in revolutionary times; and if at this time the opportunity is missed and what is possible in such great hours is not carried out - a whole world is lost." (7)

:rolleyes:

[PatrickHenry]

I am in complete agreement, Contumacious.

I encountered this from an Israeli peace activist today:
Palestine: The Advancing Ethnic Cleansing

The stage for ethnic cleansing of Palestinians has been set in the Occupied Territories, and ethnic cleansing is in progress. At present, this is the major project of the State of Israel. For an impartial person of medium intelligence, a tour of the Occupied Territories may be sufficient to understand this fact. The prime ethnic cleansing tool is, forever, Palestinian land grab in conjunction with settlement expansion. Various stages of annexation process are in evidence in the originally rural part of the West Bank, constituting 60% of its area. By now, nine percent of the West Bank land has been transferred to the direct control of the settlements [1]. A recent Peace Now investigation revealed that only 12 percent of this land is being used at all. "The state earmarks huge tracts for the settlements, out of all proportion to their size, in order to prevent Palestinian construction in those areas. Yet once an area is closed to Palestinians, the settlers begin seizing adjacent Palestinian lands, often privately owned, that lie outside their jurisdiction" [1,2]. According to B'Tselem, the Israeli human rights organization, already in 2002, 41.9% of the West Bank was assigned to the Israeli regional councils [3]. And for years, the entire rural Area C has been under administrative control of the so called "Civil Administration", which, in close cooperation with the Israeli army and the settlers, toils to make the life of its Palestinian residents as miserable as possible; the obvious objective being to make them leave [4,5]. In the remaining West Bank, Palestinians became virtual prisoners in their own towns and villages. Every aspect of normal Palestinian life - economy, health, education, is being crushed by a well organized and deliberate military-bureaucratic machine, masquerading as a security establishment [5]. Every now and then, the strangulation noose around the Palestinian existence is being tightened, inexorably, by one more notch. Ethnic cleansing, by means of home and field demolitions, is also pursued diligently by the State of Israel towards its Bedouin citizens residing in the Negev desert [6]. All of the above scarcely registers in minds of my compatriots. No wonder, since it is covered by a monumental but eagerly believed hoax [7] of "negotiations with Abu-Mazen", diplomatic efforts, and promises of good will gestures towards Palestinians (which are forever un-implemented, or implemented marginally for short periods). For reasons of their own, some Palestinian politicians including President Abbas chose to participate in this farce. An average Jewish-Israeli does not know - or does not want to know - about the ethnic cleansing program executed by their state - she or he prefers to think of it as "fight against terror". Jewish-Israeli citizens live in virtual reality, thoughtfully provided for them by the leaders, the media, and the education system. In this reality, the Israelis figure as good guys, fighting for their existence, rather than as colonizers and occupiers. In this virtual world, it is believed that our government has worked hard to achieve a peace agreement with the Palestinians; and if this goal was not achieved, it was because of the Palestinian intransigence. Impediment of negotiations by settlers is admitted, but (Sasson report notwithstanding [8]) settlers are viewed as troublesome extremists, rather than as an offshoot of deliberate and consistent annexationist policy of the Israeli government [9]. But the key Israeli politicians KNOW - the ethnic cleansing project could not possibly proceed otherwise. I have been wondering if every new minister in Israeli government gets a manual spelling the facts of life, written in the past by somebody like Golda Meir or Arik Sharon . Otherwise, how would you explain the remarkable continuity of Israeli policies in the Occupied Territories during the long years of the Occupation? How come the current maps of the Jewish settlements and the Palestinian enclaves match the Drobles and Sharon's blueprints for colonizing the West Bank, prepared tens of years ago [10]? However I rather think that no such manual exists, and every minister is expected to figure it out by himself/herself. Yitzhak Rabin paid with his life for what then appeared to be a sincere effort to break away from the ethnic cleansing program (although Rabin never even tried to remove the settlements; and his was the idea of the infamous “bypass roads†for settlers; in the end, the Oslo years turned out to be a golden opportunity for settlement expansion under the cover of the bogus “peace process†; see Ref. [5](c)). Barak, promoter of large scale colonization projects in the West Bank, seems to have made the last failed effort to set a (very limited) form of coexistence with Palestinians. But he must have finally decided that "if you cannot fight it, join it", as indicated by his current activities as a new Minister of Defense [11]. It was Sharon, a brilliant politician, who, under the cover of the "disengagement from Gaza", converted the ethnic cleansing program to the "only game in town" in the Israeli politics. By now, the entire Zionist establishment has been enlisted, from the Hebron settlers to the Shomer Hatzair (socialist youth movement), who, as army conscripts, provide those same settlers with security cover [12]. The current policies of the State of Israel are determined by the collusion of settlers' insatiable appetite for land, and generals' insatiable appetite for "action". The elected leaders who execute these policies range from whole-hearted supporters to more or less willing accomplices, mindful of their careers. Presently, none of the leaders opposes actively the ethnic cleansing program. In the background, there is the ever-intensifying humming of propaganda which designates Palestinians - both citizens and non-citizens - as DEMOGRAPHIC DANGER WHICH SHOULD BE ADDRESSED [13]. The Israeli policy towards Palestinians can be summarized briefly - "inflict all the damage you can get away with". But how do the Israeli leaders envisage the end of this game? The hard core nationalists spell it loudly - "transfer", i.e. expulsion of Palestinians. But what do the main-stream leaders think - the ones who actually carry out the expulsion (presently - the internal one, to the Palestinian ghettos and the enclaves)? The operation is too well organized for one to believe that the end-game was never considered. I believe that the final objective of our rulers is to set the stage for the second Naqba. Otherwise what is the point of the endless goading of Palestinians into violence? Any minimally thoughtful person understands that the Israeli policies in the Occupied Territories will lead to an eventual paroxysm of violence. Do not tell me that our leaders never thought about it. Granted, amongst them there are total opportunists who do not care about anything except staying in power. But somebody is pushing the ethnic cleansing forward - Sharon was the foremost among them, but judging from the well organized continuation - his associates are fully operational and in business. I think that these people are actually looking forward to the violence. They have the eyes on the real-estate prize - the West Bank. A paroxysm of violence would enable the State of Israel to annex the West Bank - the entire West Bank , that is, while getting rid of most of Palestinian inhabitants. Just like in 1948. This is, in my view, the envisaged end-game. Where do they propose to expel the Palestinians? Jordan? The Gaza Strip? Syria? I do not know. Will the ethnic cleansing succeed? The authors of these policies obviously count on it. The opening is there, with the present US administration backing Israel whatever it does, and the EU and the Arab countries unable or unwilling to stand up to the US. It is likely that the forthcoming outburst of violence will be initiated by the desperate and destitute Palestinians; and then, for umptieth time, our propaganda machine will be able to present us to the world as victims, and Palestinians as victimizers. Israeli responses will be presented as legitimate defensive actions. Later, the history may judge otherwise, but meanwhile (if the present political constellation persists for a while), who cares about the Palestinians. But in the long run, disaster looms for Israel . This is since we are a small nation, and Palestinians are a similarly sized nation which is moreover a part of the vast Moslem world. The experience of South Africa suggests that the apartheid-type system imposed on Palestinians is not viable in the long run, even if it seems invincible at the beginning. As exemplified by the last year invasion to Lebanon, the performance of the Israeli army is deteriorating, corrupted by years of operating as a colonial militia. At the same time, the generals are becoming increasingly unbridled and reckless [14]. The Israeli economy rests on support of the similarly reckless US corporate-political establishment, but this very expensive support is unlikely to last forever. The ability of US to dictate the world is also likely to wane as Russia and China are coming to their own. And perhaps most importantly - the Dome of the Rock - the third holiest place of Islam - is at stake. In my view, my country Israel has embarked on suicidal policies. Something like that already happened in the Jewish history, some 1940 years ago - see the "The Jewish War", by Josephus Flavius. And just like in those days, most of Israeli public does not realize, that they are being dragged to disaster by their own leaders.