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tusaki · Jun 11, 2004, 04:44 pm

Do the votematch!

http://www.votematch.net/index.htm

dotcoma · Jun 11, 2004, 04:47 pm

I would feel more comfortable if the EU didn't exist.

Nono · Jun 11, 2004, 04:58 pm

roxdog: "I would feel more comfortable if the EU didn't exist."

No doubt. But it does, and it's growing, just as there was once a United States to which Tennessee didn't belong.

Or, to put it another way, the EU is the answer to a European civil war that had lasted on and off for about 500 years. Your personal comfort apart, it's a project that is keeping (most) Europeans away from each other's throats for the moment. Don't knock it. And it also has the potential to act as a counter-weight to good old Bushista unipolar USA. I believe such a counter-weight is ultimately in the interests of Americans too.

dotcoma · Jun 11, 2004, 05:06 pm

I will certainly knock it. The formation of the EU is a BUSINESS DECISION made by the European elite. Nothing more. Most citizens who haven't been turned into mindless zombies are against it.

**Pooeypants** · Jun 11, 2004, 05:14 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by roxdog,
I will certainly knock it. The formation of the EU is a BUSINESS DECISION made by the European elite. Nothing more. Most citizens who haven't been turned into mindless zombies are against it.

It is an inevitability of globalisation. Love it or leave it.

dotcoma · Jun 11, 2004, 05:22 pm

What? Tyranny by the elite is inevitable? I/We should just bow to it? Interesting course of action in the face of oppression. Not very American.

**Pooeypants** · Jun 11, 2004, 07:07 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by roxdog,
What? Tyranny by the elite is inevitable? I/We should just bow to it? Interesting course of action in the face of oppression. Not very American.

Indeed, I'm British, that must be why. :rolleyes:

Btw, what do you make of this old BBC article?.

Nono · Jun 12, 2004, 10:21 am

roxdog: "What? Tyranny by the elite is inevitable? I/We should just bow to it? Interesting course of action in the face of oppression. Not very American."

Man, you think the US isn't run by a bizboy elite?
You're right that a lot of European politics is influenced by its business elite. But if that were all there was to it, the EU could confine itself to being a giant free-trade area.

I don't like the idea of a centralized European super-state either. What would be nice, though, is an ultra-loose federalism, more along the lines of Switzerland than the US, Canada or Germany.

The EU started half a century ago with a mechanism to put France's and Germany's war-making industry under joint control. THAT is the original point.

G. Adams · Jun 15, 2004, 07:38 pm

Well I came up strongly in support for the European Liberal and Democratic Reform group/coalition.

On Europe itself, I believe that Europe should move towards a loose federal state. However, I really do believe that many current institutions should be torn down, and democrats replacing the technocrats. The only democratic part of the EU, the Parliament, is weak against the Commissioners and Council of Ministers.

I also believe that we need a real constitution established to lay out the powers of this government, which should be limited to environmental, energy, trade and cross border crime policys. The interference of Brussels in issues regarding standardisation has pissed off so many small minded people that it threatens its own existence, and over issues so damned minor and insignificant it's ridiculous.

I would also like to see an attatched military organisation along the lines of Nato, under the control of the EU in peace-time activities such as flood relief and aid distribution, but under national agreement from the members when it comes to agressive deployment.

And perhaps most importantly, I would like a watchdog group, perhaps from each nation, to keep an eye on the activities of the bureaucrats in Brussels to hopefully keep them from wasting money and corruption. Even if this doesn't go on (i wish), it would at least be a reassurance to the Little Englanders and other sceptics.

Nono · Jun 16, 2004, 04:58 pm

G. Adams: "I ... believe that we need a real constitution established to lay out the powers of this government, which should be limited to environmental, energy, trade and cross border crime policys. (...) I would also like to see an attatched military organisation along the lines of Nato, under the control of the EU in peace-time activities such as flood relief and aid distribution, but under national agreement from the members when it comes to agressive deployment."

I don't think you'd ever get "national agreement" (unanimous? majority?), especially with 25+ very different countries. And there's a question: How can Europe ever be taken seriously when it refuses to deal with a major conflagration in its own back yard, as it did, shamefully, during the Bosnia thing. It finally required action by the US (which had also been sitting on its hands for years) to wake the EU up.
No, the EU also needs a (one) foreign policy, if only to wield convincing military power. That's the big hurdle.

"And perhaps most importantly, I would like a watchdog group, perhaps from each nation, to keep an eye on the activities of the bureaucrats in Brussels to hopefully keep them from wasting money and corruption. Even if this doesn't go on (i wish), it would at least be a reassurance to the Little Englanders and other sceptics."

I think the "Brussels bureaucracy" thing is overblown (though one can always find absurd media-sexy examples, in any country).
And could a multinational watchdog group act coherently any better than the Commission?
Anyway, nothing on earth will ever stop the British tabloids from fomenting hysteria.

Jun 11, 2004, 04:44 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
tusaki Playful Location: Groningen, the Netherlands Posts: 805	Do the votematch! http://www.votematch.net/index.htm Hope & Dream

Jun 11, 2004, 04:58 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 6,768	roxdog: "I would feel more comfortable if the EU didn't exist." No doubt. But it does, and it's growing, just as there was once a United States to which Tennessee didn't belong. Or, to put it another way, the EU is the answer to a European civil war that had lasted on and off for about 500 years. Your personal comfort apart, it's a project that is keeping (most) Europeans away from each other's throats for the moment. Don't knock it. And it also has the potential to act as a counter-weight to good old Bushista unipolar USA. I believe such a counter-weight is ultimately in the interests of Americans too. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

Jun 12, 2004, 10:21 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 6,768	roxdog: "What? Tyranny by the elite is inevitable? I/We should just bow to it? Interesting course of action in the face of oppression. Not very American." Man, you think the US isn't run by a bizboy elite? You're right that a lot of European politics is influenced by its business elite. But if that were all there was to it, the EU could confine itself to being a giant free-trade area. I don't like the idea of a centralized European super-state either. What would be nice, though, is an ultra-loose federalism, more along the lines of Switzerland than the US, Canada or Germany. The EU started half a century ago with a mechanism to put France's and Germany's war-making industry under joint control. THAT is the original point. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

Jun 15, 2004, 07:38 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Well I came up strongly in support for the European Liberal and Democratic Reform group/coalition. On Europe itself, I believe that Europe should move towards a loose federal state. However, I really do believe that many current institutions should be torn down, and democrats replacing the technocrats. The only democratic part of the EU, the Parliament, is weak against the Commissioners and Council of Ministers. I also believe that we need a real constitution established to lay out the powers of this government, which should be limited to environmental, energy, trade and cross border crime policys. The interference of Brussels in issues regarding standardisation has pissed off so many small minded people that it threatens its own existence, and over issues so damned minor and insignificant it's ridiculous. I would also like to see an attatched military organisation along the lines of Nato, under the control of the EU in peace-time activities such as flood relief and aid distribution, but under national agreement from the members when it comes to agressive deployment. And perhaps most importantly, I would like a watchdog group, perhaps from each nation, to keep an eye on the activities of the bureaucrats in Brussels to hopefully keep them from wasting money and corruption. Even if this doesn't go on (i wish), it would at least be a reassurance to the Little Englanders and other sceptics. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Jun 16, 2004, 04:58 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 6,768	G. Adams: "I ... believe that we need a real constitution established to lay out the powers of this government, which should be limited to environmental, energy, trade and cross border crime policys. (...) I would also like to see an attatched military organisation along the lines of Nato, under the control of the EU in peace-time activities such as flood relief and aid distribution, but under national agreement from the members when it comes to agressive deployment." I don't think you'd ever get "national agreement" (unanimous? majority?), especially with 25+ very different countries. And there's a question: How can Europe ever be taken seriously when it refuses to deal with a major conflagration in its own back yard, as it did, shamefully, during the Bosnia thing. It finally required action by the US (which had also been sitting on its hands for years) to wake the EU up. No, the EU also needs a (one) foreign policy, if only to wield convincing military power. That's the big hurdle. "And perhaps most importantly, I would like a watchdog group, perhaps from each nation, to keep an eye on the activities of the bureaucrats in Brussels to hopefully keep them from wasting money and corruption. Even if this doesn't go on (i wish), it would at least be a reassurance to the Little Englanders and other sceptics." I think the "Brussels bureaucracy" thing is overblown (though one can always find absurd media-sexy examples, in any country). And could a multinational watchdog group act coherently any better than the Commission? Anyway, nothing on earth will ever stop the British tabloids from fomenting hysteria. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

Jun 11, 2004, 04:47 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	I would feel more comfortable if the EU didn't exist.

Jun 11, 2004, 05:06 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	I will certainly knock it. The formation of the EU is a BUSINESS DECISION made by the European elite. Nothing more. Most citizens who haven't been turned into mindless zombies are against it.

Jun 11, 2004, 05:22 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	What? Tyranny by the elite is inevitable? I/We should just bow to it? Interesting course of action in the face of oppression. Not very American.