Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Mia · Jul 6, 2007, 11:45 am

Let's try this. Let's go, country by country, and talk about each one, since they are not all the same.

At the end, we can see how many Islamic nations are ruled by fundamentalists, how many of those fundamentalists were chosen by their people, how many of them are advanced nations, how many of them treat women like chattel.....

I have not done a study of this kind, perhaps those interested could collaborate their efforts.

**Chris the Chees** · Jul 6, 2007, 12:41 pm

Oh please, if you want to continue this line which is nothing but an excuse for you to try and legitimise a policy prejudice towards Islam and Muslims (which is continued from another thread), you may want to consider other factors such as the number of fundermentalists of other religious dispositions and much more important factors such as economic prosperity within these countries.

Perhaps, if this were at all designed to be fair, you would want to continue this survey but go on a racial line and study "white nations" as contrasted to "black nations" asking the same questions. But I imagine this is just a thread designed to invoke prejudice towards Islam and Muslims and that is where its purpose ends.

Mia · Jul 6, 2007, 12:47 pm

I don't mind doing any type of comparison. I'm not sure what your reference to White Nationalism is about....

But on the Islamic point, what I am attempting to do, instead of talking about it in generalities as we are in other threads, is to actually break it down and get to whatever the truth of the matter is.

It's not an anit-Islamic thread, it's a fact seeking one.

There are middle eastern nations that do not have these issues as much as others, and some don't have them at all. It's not fair to paint with a broad brush in either direction.

This, again, is not an argumentative thread. If you would like to participate, maybe you could start with talking about an Islamic nation that is advanced, or not run by fundies, or not treating women like trash, or not repressing its people under a dictator.

tinybear · Jul 6, 2007, 02:08 pm

Malaysia is the one country I can think of which is relatively moderate. But it's still a far cry from the west.

Mia · Jul 6, 2007, 03:25 pm

Syria: is not run by fundies, does not have this BS against women, but it is ruled by an oppressive dictator.

Guess why? Because if he doesn't keep a thumb on the fundies that are the majority in the country, then it would be run by them, and women and Christians and everyone else are up a creek.

If the extremists are so few and far between, how do they form a majority in so many nations?

SoylentGreen · Jul 6, 2007, 06:31 pm

How about America.
A fundamentalist warmonger bigot for a president. About third of the population voted in the presidential campaign. Certainly technologically advanced but backward in the social ideals. A male dominated sexist mindset that treat women like objects.

Mia · Jul 6, 2007, 06:39 pm

Nice try, but we don't live under a dictator. If you think that we 'kind-of' do, try living in a place with a real one. You'd be in prison right now for saying what you just did.

Women have the choice to choose men who don't treat them like objects, we have every freedom that men do. We are one of the most advanced nations on earth - get real.

SoylentGreen · Jul 6, 2007, 06:55 pm

As I said tecnologically advanced but socially inferior.
Your OP did not mention dictatship was a qualifier and because the islamic countries may choose a different method of electing a leader that isn't based on personality such as america does not mean they are a dictatorship.

Is your body yours do you have the freedom to choose what grows in there?

Mia · Jul 6, 2007, 07:09 pm

Socially inferior to what?

SoylentGreen · Jul 6, 2007, 07:24 pm

That should be to whom, you cannot be socially inferior to a what.
You still have an archaic two party political system
Your measure in feet and inches and weigh in pounds and gallons
You elect politicians based on personality and religious conviction.
You base your morality on a 2000 year old book

Mia · Jul 6, 2007, 07:32 pm

So Islamic morals are superior? LOL!

OK, let's move on. We're supposed to be talking about Islamic countries here.

SoylentGreen · Jul 6, 2007, 07:41 pm

Quote:

Mia
So Islamic morals are superior? LOL!

I was not making a comparison MIA just following the OP
"Let's go, country by country, and talk about each one, since they are not all the same."

And by that I thought you meant every country that's run by fundamentalists not just Islamic.

Mia · Jul 6, 2007, 08:10 pm

I wanted to talk about Islamic countries - people are claiming it's a tiny minority of Muslims that believe in certain things - some of us think differently, so I thought we could break it down and just see.

SoylentGreen · Jul 6, 2007, 08:35 pm

Well people are also claiming that it's a tiny minority of christians in america who believe in certain things.
But fair enough it's your thread so we will stick to islamic, but I think it unfair that non islamic who share similar traits should be left out.

GHook93 · Jul 6, 2007, 09:29 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Mia

Syria: is not run by fundies, does not have this BS against women, but it is ruled by an oppressive dictator.

Guess why? Because if he doesn't keep a thumb on the fundies that are the majority in the country, then it would be run by them, and women and Christians and everyone else are up a creek.

If the extremists are so few and far between, how do they form a majority in so many nations?

Very good question; however, Assad is a Fundy!

GHook93 · Jul 6, 2007, 09:31 pm

Quote:

Quote by: SoylentGreen

How about America.
A fundamentalist warmonger bigot for a president. About third of the population voted in the presidential campaign. Certainly technologically advanced but backward in the social ideals. A male dominated sexist mindset that treat women like objects.

Bush is many things, such as an idiot, but your characterization of him (and America for that matter) is just plain wrong.

GHook93 · Jul 6, 2007, 09:33 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Mia

Nice try, but we don't live under a dictator. If you think that we 'kind-of' do, try living in a place with a real one. You'd be in prison right now for saying what you just did.

Women have the choice to choose men who don't treat them like objects, we have every freedom that men do. We are one of the most advanced nations on earth - get real.

The reality of American marriage is that the woman generally rules the household.

GHook93 · Jul 6, 2007, 09:40 pm

Quote:

Quote by: SoylentGreen

You still have an archaic two party political system

WRONG - there are vast amounts of 3rd parties, just none of them have the clout of the big 2; however, the Libertarian party is growing.

Quote:

Your measure in feet and inches and weigh in pounds and gallons

POINT? We could easily say the same thing about the metric system!

Quote:

You elect politicians based on personality and religious conviction.

DEAD Wrong. The uneducated do, just like they do in every country, but the educated look at issues (just like the educated do in every country). Religious conviction, that is a laugh! The vast majority of the time throughout this country's history there were 2 white Christians running against each other.

Quote:

You base your morality on a 2000 year old book

Our society is based on separation of church and state. We do a better job them pretty much every country by keeping it that way.

Alive · Jul 6, 2007, 10:35 pm

Quote:

Quote by: SoylentGreen

You measure in feet and inches and weigh in pounds and gallons

Quote:

Quote by: GHook93

POINT? We could easily say the same thing about the metric system!

No. You couldn't.

Mia · Jul 6, 2007, 11:04 pm

Quote:

Quote by: GHook93

Very good question; however, Assad is a Fundy!

HUH? It is a capital offense to be a member of the Muslim brotherhood. Assad is of a small sect called Alawite that the Sunni fundies hate. They are a bigger enemy to Assad than they ever could be to us.

They want to take the country from him.

The women there do not have to cover up, are not stoned or made into the criminal if raped...none of that. People are permitted to wear shorts and hold hands in public (though fundies complain).

Christians are comfortable there - they have big displays during Christmas and Easter....he's as far from a fundie as one can get.

Jul 6, 2007, 11:45 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	The Islamic debate Let's try this. Let's go, country by country, and talk about each one, since they are not all the same. At the end, we can see how many Islamic nations are ruled by fundamentalists, how many of those fundamentalists were chosen by their people, how many of them are advanced nations, how many of them treat women like chattel..... I have not done a study of this kind, perhaps those interested could collaborate their efforts. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Jul 6, 2007, 12:41 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Chris the Chees Moderator Location: Wales Posts: 2,272	Oh please, if you want to continue this line which is nothing but an excuse for you to try and legitimise a policy prejudice towards Islam and Muslims (which is continued from another thread), you may want to consider other factors such as the number of fundermentalists of other religious dispositions and much more important factors such as economic prosperity within these countries. Perhaps, if this were at all designed to be fair, you would want to continue this survey but go on a racial line and study "white nations" as contrasted to "black nations" asking the same questions. But I imagine this is just a thread designed to invoke prejudice towards Islam and Muslims and that is where its purpose ends. Society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, […] no obstacle whatsoever intervenes at this moment except ignorance to prevent such a state of society. Robert Owen

Jul 6, 2007, 12:47 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	I don't mind doing any type of comparison. I'm not sure what your reference to White Nationalism is about.... But on the Islamic point, what I am attempting to do, instead of talking about it in generalities as we are in other threads, is to actually break it down and get to whatever the truth of the matter is. It's not an anit-Islamic thread, it's a fact seeking one. There are middle eastern nations that do not have these issues as much as others, and some don't have them at all. It's not fair to paint with a broad brush in either direction. This, again, is not an argumentative thread. If you would like to participate, maybe you could start with talking about an Islamic nation that is advanced, or not run by fundies, or not treating women like trash, or not repressing its people under a dictator. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Jul 6, 2007, 03:25 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Syria: is not run by fundies, does not have this BS against women, but it is ruled by an oppressive dictator. Guess why? Because if he doesn't keep a thumb on the fundies that are the majority in the country, then it would be run by them, and women and Christians and everyone else are up a creek. If the extremists are so few and far between, how do they form a majority in so many nations? "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Jul 6, 2007, 06:39 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Nice try, but we don't live under a dictator. If you think that we 'kind-of' do, try living in a place with a real one. You'd be in prison right now for saying what you just did. Women have the choice to choose men who don't treat them like objects, we have every freedom that men do. We are one of the most advanced nations on earth - get real. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Jul 6, 2007, 02:08 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Hong Kong (for now) Posts: 7,108	Malaysia is the one country I can think of which is relatively moderate. But it's still a far cry from the west.

Jul 6, 2007, 06:31 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
SoylentGreen Volcanic Erupter Posts: 2,919	How about America. A fundamentalist warmonger bigot for a president. About third of the population voted in the presidential campaign. Certainly technologically advanced but backward in the social ideals. A male dominated sexist mindset that treat women like objects.

Jul 6, 2007, 06:55 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
SoylentGreen Volcanic Erupter Posts: 2,919	As I said tecnologically advanced but socially inferior. Your OP did not mention dictatship was a qualifier and because the islamic countries may choose a different method of electing a leader that isn't based on personality such as america does not mean they are a dictatorship. Is your body yours do you have the freedom to choose what grows in there?

Jul 6, 2007, 07:09 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Socially inferior to what? "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Jul 6, 2007, 07:24 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
SoylentGreen Volcanic Erupter Posts: 2,919	That should be to whom, you cannot be socially inferior to a what. You still have an archaic two party political system Your measure in feet and inches and weigh in pounds and gallons You elect politicians based on personality and religious conviction. You base your morality on a 2000 year old book

Jul 6, 2007, 07:32 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	So Islamic morals are superior? LOL! OK, let's move on. We're supposed to be talking about Islamic countries here. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Jul 6, 2007, 08:10 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	I wanted to talk about Islamic countries - people are claiming it's a tiny minority of Muslims that believe in certain things - some of us think differently, so I thought we could break it down and just see. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Jul 6, 2007, 08:35 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
SoylentGreen Volcanic Erupter Posts: 2,919	Well people are also claiming that it's a tiny minority of christians in america who believe in certain things. But fair enough it's your thread so we will stick to islamic, but I think it unfair that non islamic who share similar traits should be left out.