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castille · Oct 17, 2003, 12:18 pm

Firstly, I want you to read Robert Kiyosaki's "Rich Dad, Poor Dad".

WAIT! I know what you're thinking.

You're thinking "Its another evil capitalistic adolf hitler nazi american hate book".

Or maybe you're saying "Its just some wacko called Kiyosaki who is making money off his scam."

Or even "How will a book change my life?".

Thats EXACTLY why you're a "wage slave!". Your mind is rigid, and unable to understand new concepts. You think in terms of "evil oppressive Adolf Hitler capitalist nazi boss vs. the good kindly hardworking slave worker".

But theres more to it. The world is not black or white, as Adolf Hitler had you and the jews believing.

Before you make a single criticism of capitalism or that book, read it. Find it in your library, borrow it from school, buy it on ebay for $4, or steal it. Get the book, read, then try out some of his concepts.

And if you fail? Try again. I've bankrupted 4 businesses since 2001. Sometimes, people quit at the 9th failure, when the 10th would have been success.

When you finish the book, you will say "But I don't have any money!".

Well, work at McDonalds. Thats what I did. Its only a few bucks an hour, but work there 14 hours a day.

Then after work, walk the streets, and look for ways to make money. A house without a peephole! Quick, learn how to drill peepholes and offer to drill one in for the owner for $50. Thats $50 in 20 minutes. A small business? Offer to deliver ads for them!

Once you've earnt $500 (it took me 5 months to earn that, while doing school and on youth wage), read books on investment. Learn to invest the money. Or if you're more daring, start your own business. Fail a few times, learn like mad. Try again. Fail? Again. Again, until you suceed.

Business not for you? Go to important business functions (when I was 17, I borrowed a friend's tux and snuck into business functions). Meet the people. Get free food. Make contacts, and get a job. Spend the MINIMUM, buy a house at the worst section of town, no car, no luxuries, and invest everything.

Once you've done ALL THAT, come back to me, tell me you're still a Communist :)

RebelWithanAK · Oct 17, 2003, 12:21 pm

If I hear one more piece of "capitalism is a meritocracy" propoganda bullshit, I'll start the revolution right now.

castille · Oct 17, 2003, 12:25 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
If I hear one more piece of "capitalism is a meritocracy" propoganda bullshit, I'll start the revolution right now.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Ahh, already there is one person who criticises without experiencing it. You didn't even have time to look at the book I recommended!

Any more sheep care to join him?

G. Adams · Oct 17, 2003, 02:12 pm

I'm not, like probably everyone else here, going to read this book. Not because I think in black and white, I certainly don't do that. Not because it may be written by someone just trying to make money. Not because I don't believe a book can change my life, a few already have. But because its a book. I already have six piled up in front of me to read in the next few weeks and I'm not putting another on the pile.

However, I would like to enlighten you on a few things. Firstly, if we all tried to get rich, more than 99% will fail. Why? Because getting rich requires someone else losing some of their wealth, which means the people trying to get rich lose it, thus stopping them from getting rich, or from people who are already rich, and they protect themselves pretty well.

If we were all equally succesful in our business ventures we would all be equal wealth wise.

But more importantly, if everyone in the world tried business venture after business venture there would no-one plowing the fields, fishing the sea or mining the coal. Someone has to do the menial work to keep the system running while we keep trying.

And I am a communist because deep down in my heart I don't want to see ethiopians dying on the tv, tramps on the street or dole lines that stretch around the corner. And the only way I can do this is through communism. Or I could try Hitlers way of killing 3 million people to make 3 million new jobs but extend this world wide, but killing people to help people kind of defeats the point.

castille · Oct 18, 2003, 12:24 pm

The REAL reason you refuse to read the book is because you are afraid of the ideas.

I can assure you that the book is not another "get rich quick" crap. In fact, Robert Kiyosaki SPECIFICALLY states that getting rich taks time, energy, and persistance. He's made thousands of attacks on dodgy get-rich schemes.

The problem with people is that they are afraid to take painful short-term risks for long-term rewards. I doubt EVERYONE would dare to go out and start their own businesses; in fact, a recent survey came up with the result that only 2% of people who had READ a business book actually went out and did it!

You ever hear people say "I wish I was rich" or "I wish I got a girlfriend", but they sit on their ass all day and not do it? Thats why humans suffer so much, because they sacrifice their little petty needs for long-term satisfaction.

Even though I'm only a 1st-year economics student, I can figure that if EVERYONE invests 20% of their income (I put 60% of mine into business and investment), they would have a good life, while companies would still make money.

But they won't. I know if we gave them EVERYTHING we could, they still will not do it. Why? Again, short-term rewards.

You claim ethiopians are dying of hunger. I ask you, is Ethiopia a capitalist society? NO. Its also racked by ethnic violence (racism).

Lets choose an example of an ACTUAL capitalist country: United States.

Thousands of Americans, though hard work and common sense, have built comfortable lives. Not simply business owners, but architects, builders, flight attendants, waiters, etc. How? Their ability to go beyond "I wish", and into "I WILL!".

RebelWithanAK · Oct 18, 2003, 12:54 pm

Like we haven't heard it all before, and are against capitalism for lack of something better to do. Please.

G. Adams · Oct 18, 2003, 03:40 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
The REAL reason you refuse to read the book is because you are afraid of the ideas.

I can assure you that the book is not another "get rich quick" crap. In fact, Robert Kiyosaki SPECIFICALLY states that getting rich taks time, energy, and persistance. He's made thousands of attacks on dodgy get-rich schemes.

The problem with people is that they are afraid to take painful short-term risks for long-term rewards. I doubt EVERYONE would dare to go out and start their own businesses; in fact, a recent survey came up with the result that only 2% of people who had READ a business book actually went out and did it!

You ever hear people say "I wish I was rich" or "I wish I got a girlfriend", but they sit on their ass all day and not do it? Thats why humans suffer so much, because they sacrifice their little petty needs for long-term satisfaction.

Even though I'm only a 1st-year economics student, I can figure that if EVERYONE invests 20% of their income (I put 60% of mine into business and investment), they would have a good life, while companies would still make money.

But they won't. I know if we gave them EVERYTHING we could, they still will not do it. Why? Again, short-term rewards.

You claim ethiopians are dying of hunger. I ask you, is Ethiopia a capitalist society? NO. Its also racked by ethnic violence (racism).

Lets choose an example of an ACTUAL capitalist country: United States.

Thousands of Americans, though hard work and common sense, have built comfortable lives. Not simply business owners, but architects, builders, flight attendants, waiters, etc. How? Their ability to go beyond "I wish", and into "I WILL!".<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No, again I will not read it because I am in University and am already reading enough stuff.

BTW, or you perchance the founder of Capitalism Discussion on the MSN Groups? Because that person made the same mistake as you did by comparing getting rich to getting a girlfriend. Getting rich is the acquisition of wealth-property. Women are not property. Your comparision suggests the two are similar. they are not.

You are ignoring something, as I have mentioned elsewhere. If everybody tries to get rich and succeeds, as you suggest they will if they persist, then no-one will be rich. We would all be equal. But because those who are currently rich do not want this equalisation, they will use their influence to make it harder. For instance the may create monopolies, stopping anyone getting into those markets.

As well as that, if we all got rich to lead these comfortable lives, who would actually do the hard work? You would have to ensure that for every person who got rich another 2 replaced them just to maintain the system. of course, those 2 would follow your plan to get rich, requiring another 2....this goes on forever. Capitalism is based on ever greater expansion, and when it stops, the bubble bursts.

castille · Oct 19, 2003, 10:09 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
No, again I will not read it because I am in University and am already reading enough stuff.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I'm in university with 2 degrees, running a business part-time, participate actively in networking functions, and still have time to read dozens of books related to investment. I also have 24 hours each day, sleeping 9 hours. You can cancel ONE night out with the guys to read that book, or lose 2 hours of sleep to do so. Its worth it.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
As well as that, if we all got rich to lead these comfortable lives, who would actually do the hard work? <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Firstly, we will not ALL be rich. It will be that 0.001% who take action that will.
It is enough for the rest if they recieve a healthy source of income to keep themselves *comfortable*.

Secondly, you are wrong in assuming that the rich never work. On the contrary, I find the rich are the HARDEST workers. Do you know Bill Gates spends at least 12 hours a day working? Rich people never sleep well. They dont live cushy comfortable lives (even rich dictators like Mao were constantly on their feet!).

Thirdly, you are WRONG in assuming you have to own a business to be rich. If everyone in the world owned a single investment property, I can assure you the world will not blow up. ONE property. Some people working part-time at McDonalds have managed to acquire 500!

By "comfortable", I do not refer to not working. Perhaps thats what Communism sees comfort as (and I pray that Communism will not work, or else our world is going to be full of people not working and eating!). Comfort is merely coming home with the knowledge you are not going to go into financial difficulties. Comfort is knowing you are saving enough to live on if you lose your job.

Most people don't want to enter the sleepless nights of becoming extremely rich, and I understand that. To be comfortable can be as simple as owning one property with $10,000 income each year - is that so hard? My uncle went to Hong Kong with no money in his pocket, and with 20 years of hard work managed to get himself into a comfortable state.

Also, I notice you socialist/communists have a tendency to equate the words "business owner" with "wealth"? Its far from true - in a business, the desire to own and operate and run a business is FAR more important than wealth. Thats why I dislike Communism; its not the material goods we fear losing, its the freedom to achieve our goals without affecting others.

You got a goal you wish to achieve? Good, but make sure you don't force others into your world against their will.

G. Adams · Oct 19, 2003, 12:14 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
No, again I will not read it because I am in University and am already reading enough stuff.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I'm in university with 2 degrees, running a business part-time, participate actively in networking functions, and still have time to read dozens of books related to investment. I also have 24 hours each day, sleeping 9 hours. You can cancel ONE night out with the guys to read that book, or lose 2 hours of sleep to do so. Its worth it.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
As well as that, if we all got rich to lead these comfortable lives, who would actually do the hard work? <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Firstly, we will not ALL be rich. It will be that 0.001% who take action that will.
It is enough for the rest if they recieve a healthy source of income to keep themselves *comfortable*.

Secondly, you are wrong in assuming that the rich never work. On the contrary, I find the rich are the HARDEST workers. Do you know Bill Gates spends at least 12 hours a day working? Rich people never sleep well. They dont live cushy comfortable lives (even rich dictators like Mao were constantly on their feet!).

Thirdly, you are WRONG in assuming you have to own a business to be rich. If everyone in the world owned a single investment property, I can assure you the world will not blow up. ONE property. Some people working part-time at McDonalds have managed to acquire 500!

By "comfortable", I do not refer to not working. Perhaps thats what Communism sees comfort as (and I pray that Communism will not work, or else our world is going to be full of people not working and eating!). Comfort is merely coming home with the knowledge you are not going to go into financial difficulties. Comfort is knowing you are saving enough to live on if you lose your job.

Most people don't want to enter the sleepless nights of becoming extremely rich, and I understand that. To be comfortable can be as simple as owning one property with $10,000 income each year - is that so hard? My uncle went to Hong Kong with no money in his pocket, and with 20 years of hard work managed to get himself into a comfortable state.

Also, I notice you socialist/communists have a tendency to equate the words "business owner" with "wealth"? Its far from true - in a business, the desire to own and operate and run a business is FAR more important than wealth. Thats why I dislike Communism; its not the material goods we fear losing, its the freedom to achieve our goals without affecting others.

You got a goal you wish to achieve? Good, but make sure you don't force others into your world against their will.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No, I really don't have the time. I have maybe six hours of lectures and seminars to attend per day. I then have 2 hours of fitness training to do, followed by one hour of technique and skill development of my kung fu. I then have two hours of papers to write up for my seminars. Then theres about an hour spent answering e-mails. Anthing between an hour or two responding to you guys, depending on how bothered I can be to write proper replies. I also spend about an hour a day eating, roughly. And a few nights a week I do like to go out. And once my job starts next week there gonna have to be some shifts in my timetable again. So, really, I don't have time to read a none essential book.

And how are you doing two degrees? Unless you mean two fields in one degree, or you are only doing your degree part time.

Next...What is the point of us all reading this book to start these business's unless we intend to get rich? If business's don't expand and compete they risk being dominated by those who will do so, putting us out of business.

Being comfortable enough not to worry about the bills means you ARE rich. If you earn more than £25 000 (or dollars, I can't remember which so I gave the benefit of the doubt and went high) per year per household you are in the top 5% of the world population? And it takes more than 25k in a household to live so comfortable not to worry about bills.

Okay, say we reach this plateau of only 0.001 being rich, and everyone else "comfortable". Now what happens when the rich want to get richer? everyone else gets poorer. Are you going to cap how rich people get? And how many can get rich? But thats not capitalism.

I never said the rich don't work, but the disparity between income between the owner and the worker is appaling. In Britain between the top and bottom its on average around 40x, in Germany its about 25x, but in the US its 400x. Does the guy at the top have 400x times the workload of the lowest worker? For that matter does he even do 25x the work of the lowest worker? No.

And the uber rich are not the hardest workers. Someone doing 12 hours of phone calling and number juggling does not work as hard as someone doing 12 hours down a tin mine.

If people are as lazy as you suggest in your counter arguments to communism elsewhere, why would people become CEO's, when they can do all that "easy work" like handploughing fields or quarrying?

castille · Oct 20, 2003, 10:16 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
And how are you doing two degrees? <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Commerce and Arts double degree.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
And a few nights a week I do like to go out.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Then ONE night, don't go out. Stay home, and read the book. It only took me 30 minutes to read it. But of course, you'll make up another excuse and another and another and another......(people have funny habits of making excuses to justify their failure).

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Next...What is the point of us all reading this book to start these business's unless we intend to get rich? <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I never said you should start a business. Please read carefully. The book doesn't even DEAL with business. It is merely suggesting another perspective to adopt when looking at the issues of money and wealth.

Also, I never began my business intending to get rich. I enjoy the art of building a business. I can get a stable 9-5 job in marketing, but that would bore me.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
And the uber rich are not the hardest workers. Someone doing 12 hours of phone calling and number juggling does not work as hard as someone doing 12 hours down a tin mine. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Your ignorance towards business owners are appalling. Have you ever met a rich person before in your life? I doubt it.

I spend "12 hours of phone calling and number juggling". No wait, I spend ALL my waking hours "phone calling and juggling". Have you ever made 200 calls in one day, knowing ONE botched up call could bring you to bankruptcy?

Today I was given a call by a suit asking a million questions. Know what was so hard about answering a million questions? ONE mistake and I would lose half of my life's savings. ONE MISTAKE. And down goes years of work.

Please talk to some business owners before you make your stupid assumptions. No, don't. They will tear you apart before you can finish your first sentence. Stupidity isn't appreciated in business.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
If people are as lazy as you suggest in your counter arguments to communism elsewhere, why would people become CEO's, when they can do all that "easy work" like handploughing fields or quarrying?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Because we enjoy it. Yes, its got huge amounts of pressure (the majority of people who die young from stress are in fact executives and business owners). Yes, a farmer living in a CAPITALIST country (which doesnt include Rwanda, current under a socialist dictator) sitting on his tractor staring at his fields is easier work.

But you know why people like us keep doing it? Cuz we love it. We love the excitement of not knowing whether the next deal could make us $100,000 or plunge us into bankruptcy. I don't pretend to speak for the entire business world (as you cannot pretend to speak on behalf of the workers), but every day is like jumping off an aircraft with a parachute - its thrilling, but dangerous.

There was a man who was a drunkard, and was later convicted for murdering a fast food clerk. He had 2 sons.

One son was later arrested for attempted murder, and came out of prison to be killed by a rival gang member.

Another son became a comfortable manager of a regional marketing office, living a good life with wife and a kid.

When asked about their situations, they both said "Its because of my dad!".

In a Communist society, we would have to assume everyone is equal. Yet those 2 children were not equal, despite having come from equal father.

Some people can go from poverty to wealth....others go from wealth to poverty....and yet others remain in poverty.

Those who fail blame everyone, except themself. Its the governments fault. Its the tax office. Its god. But never me. Some go to poor countries to begin revolutions, and live out their dreams by oppressing others. Others fade away into oblivion. Yet some manage to suceed.

YOU can suceed, if you set your mind to it. The first step is not to blame anyone. Take this advice if you want, or throw it away. Its up to you to make yourself successful, irregardless of the system you live under.

Section 8 · Oct 20, 2003, 10:29 am

Then why do you? This horrid logic, as any sane person knows that rich people have it off better than others. Why would one want to be rich if it was so much work and discomfort?

castille · Oct 20, 2003, 10:48 am

Because I love it.

At the end of the day, I can say to myself, "This is what I have achieved today, and I am proud of it!".

I couldn't say the same if I slack off all day and achieve nothing, can I?

Rich people also do NOT have it better off than anyone else. Human psychology dictates that our needs are constant.

Got rich? You'll want more money.

Laid with a supermodel? You'll want a threesome with supermodels.

Lead a Communist revolution? You'll want to become the new ruler to "guide" the people!

Become a god? You'll want to be an unchallenged god!

Ambition is the only aspect of humanity that does not have a greater challenger. Few people are without ambition, and it is normally due to a series of incidents that have pushd back their ambitions for survival (ie. they do not believe they can ever suceed, and enter depression).

Section 8 · Oct 20, 2003, 11:13 am

Wanting more syndrome is an offspring of capitalsim.

castille · Oct 20, 2003, 11:39 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)
Wanting more syndrome is an offspring of capitalsim.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Oh yes, its the "blame the other person" disease.

I've seen plenty of people do this.

My (ex) business partner - on publicly embarrassing one of our biggest clients - came up with this amazing excuse: "Its not my fault, its just the room was so small and I wasn't getting enough air!".

Yeah....and I bet Adolf Hitler was involved in the conspiracy.

A month ago, one of my customers brought over $4000 worth of electronics, and then lost it all. He came back and told us that it wasnt his fault, it was just he had brought a bad brand of cigarettes and the smoke made him dozy, so thus he lost the $4000 worth of electronics!

Reminds me of my girlfriend who couldnt stop shopping. She blamed advertising for her mania. So why wasn't I affected? Eventually I convinced her that it was HER fault for shopping. The result? No more shopping trips, no more $200 on useless goods, and I don't have to wait outside the sex shop anymore (just kidding!).

Its amazing the capacity human mind has to explain their failures. Why not just say, "I suck, next time I will do it better", instead of blaming the government?

So boys and girls....next time you accidently stub your toe or fall off your chair, remember, its not your fault, its capitalism's fault!

G. Adams · Oct 20, 2003, 02:33 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)

Commerce and Arts double degree.

Then ONE night, don't go out. Stay home, and read the book. It only took me 30 minutes to read it. But of course, you'll make up another excuse and another and another and another......(people have funny habits of making excuses to justify their failure).

I never said you should start a business. Please read carefully. The book doesn't even DEAL with business. It is merely suggesting another perspective to adopt when looking at the issues of money and wealth.

Also, I never began my business intending to get rich. I enjoy the art of building a business. I can get a stable 9-5 job in marketing, but that would bore me.

Your ignorance towards business owners are appalling. Have you ever met a rich person before in your life? I doubt it.

I spend "12 hours of phone calling and number juggling". No wait, I spend ALL my waking hours "phone calling and juggling". Have you ever made 200 calls in one day, knowing ONE botched up call could bring you to bankruptcy?

Today I was given a call by a suit asking a million questions. Know what was so hard about answering a million questions? ONE mistake and I would lose half of my life's savings. ONE MISTAKE. And down goes years of work.

Please talk to some business owners before you make your stupid assumptions. No, don't. They will tear you apart before you can finish your first sentence. Stupidity isn't appreciated in business.

Because we enjoy it. Yes, its got huge amounts of pressure (the majority of people who die young from stress are in fact executives and business owners). Yes, a farmer living in a CAPITALIST country (which doesnt include Rwanda, current under a socialist dictator) sitting on his tractor staring at his fields is easier work.

But you know why people like us keep doing it? Cuz we love it. We love the excitement of not knowing whether the next deal could make us $100,000 or plunge us into bankruptcy. I don't pretend to speak for the entire business world (as you cannot pretend to speak on behalf of the workers), but every day is like jumping off an aircraft with a parachute - its thrilling, but dangerous.

There was a man who was a drunkard, and was later convicted for murdering a fast food clerk. He had 2 sons.

One son was later arrested for attempted murder, and came out of prison to be killed by a rival gang member.

Another son became a comfortable manager of a regional marketing office, living a good life with wife and a kid.

When asked about their situations, they both said "Its because of my dad!".

In a Communist society, we would have to assume everyone is equal. Yet those 2 children were not equal, despite having come from equal father.

Some people can go from poverty to wealth....others go from wealth to poverty....and yet others remain in poverty.

Those who fail blame everyone, except themself. Its the governments fault. Its the tax office. Its god. But never me. Some go to poor countries to begin revolutions, and live out their dreams by oppressing others. Others fade away into oblivion. Yet some manage to suceed.

YOU can suceed, if you set your mind to it. The first step is not to blame anyone. Take this advice if you want, or throw it away. Its up to you to make yourself successful, irregardless of the system you live under.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

30 mins? Ahh well you should have said so. I thought you wanted me to read a proper book. Hell Goosebumps take longer than 30 mins to read. I might read it now. Would have saved you a lot of posting just to tell me it was tiny and could be fit into a schedule.

My ignorance towards business owners is like yours to the starving. However, I have talked to rich people. When I left secondary school at 16 for a sixth form, I left my dump of a town area for a more posh one. To give you an idea of the wealth these other kids had, one lad had a Merc for himself. Not him on third party with the family car. It was his Merc. That was until Xmas when his dad bought him his second car, a 1.4 Peugot 306 soft top special edition. So yes, I get to speak to a lot of people who will never have to worry about bills, and are only concerned that they may have to wear the same outfit twice in six months.

Now I have come to University. I have to work now I'm here. I only know one other guy who has too. I am one of the few I know who isn't in an en suite. So that gives you an idea of the people I get to mix with nowadays. More daddies girls and trust fund babies. I'd never seen a Bentley in rl till I came down here, and now I've seen six different ones. And these people are future owners of industry, and most of them just havn't a clue what life is like for the most of us.

You have to do make calls all day? Oh poor baby. Oddly enough no I havn't being that I am 18 at University. But have you ever had to watch each and everyone of your children die of AIDS, just because a handful of pharmaceuticals want to keep their profit margin? whats more important, childrens lives or profit?

castille · Oct 24, 2003, 08:04 am

Well, you've probably made another excuse to yourself about not reading the book. Feel free - I can think of lots of creative "Why I can't do it" excuses.

Yes I care about childrens lives - unfortunately I can't see how World Vision is going to help those children living in brutal dictatorships until somebody goes over there and puts in a stable democratic system. How much donated aid did Saddam steal? 90%? 99%?

Actually, when I turned on the TV today, this girl from Ethiopia or something said how she used to pick up garbage to survive. I said to myself, "Hey, thats what I did too when I was her age!".

And you? How much do YOU help those starving children? Sorry, but protesting with retards doesn't do much for a child whose about to starve.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
More daddies girls and trust fund babies.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Thats your problem. They are CHILDREN of wealthy people. Did they make that wealth for themselves? No.

How about you go and meet their parents? Meet the people who toiled for their wealth. I know what you are saying - those kids are spoilt, yes. I've met a lot of them when I meet up with advertisers, and frankly I'm disappointed myself at their state.

However, keep in mind 84% of the rich are self-made. You heard right. 84% of rich people made their own wealth.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You have to do make calls all day? Oh poor baby. Oddly enough no I havn't being that I am 18 at University. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

So you're a pampered 18 year old university student who lives on their parents money? You said previously you live in a posh suburb. I'm also 18 and at university. No difference.

I'm starting to think you're one of those "armchair academics". You know, people who live in expensive ivory towers, who see themselves as being "part of the poor masses", but in reality have never been poor before. Like I said, feel free to go to a poor country anytime. My hometown might be a good option; before 1990 we didnt have proper sewerage systems or clean water.

But don't worry. You'll never be poor. You'll just spend your life pretending to understand the poor and being a "part-time Communist". Commie by day, luxury by night eh?

G. Adams · Oct 24, 2003, 09:20 am

Well I'm not going to enter into this discussion after this final post because

a) you don't read what I write
b) you write the same thing in so many ways post after post, which then leads to me replying the same way over and over. Its boring.
c) I'm getting more positive by the day that your the same person from the MSN group capitalism discussion, and we are having the same arguments again. If your not then you have a potentially great friend from China who believes, talks and even thinks the same way you do.

castille · Oct 27, 2003, 08:20 am

So what creative excuse do you have today for failure?

Success only comes for those with the will to suceed. Even your Stalin and Mao agrees.

Section 8 · Oct 27, 2003, 09:45 am

Stalin was a marxist-lennist and different from a communist
Mao was a Maoist

STOP! I don't want to here how Stalin is on my side because he isn't!

Oct 17, 2003, 12:18 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Firstly, I want you to read Robert Kiyosaki's "Rich Dad, Poor Dad". WAIT! I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "Its another evil capitalistic adolf hitler nazi american hate book". Or maybe you're saying "Its just some wacko called Kiyosaki who is making money off his scam." Or even "How will a book change my life?". Thats EXACTLY why you're a "wage slave!". Your mind is rigid, and unable to understand new concepts. You think in terms of "evil oppressive Adolf Hitler capitalist nazi boss vs. the good kindly hardworking slave worker". But theres more to it. The world is not black or white, as Adolf Hitler had you and the jews believing. Before you make a single criticism of capitalism or that book, read it. Find it in your library, borrow it from school, buy it on ebay for $4, or steal it. Get the book, read, then try out some of his concepts. And if you fail? Try again. I've bankrupted 4 businesses since 2001. Sometimes, people quit at the 9th failure, when the 10th would have been success. When you finish the book, you will say "But I don't have any money!". Well, work at McDonalds. Thats what I did. Its only a few bucks an hour, but work there 14 hours a day. Then after work, walk the streets, and look for ways to make money. A house without a peephole! Quick, learn how to drill peepholes and offer to drill one in for the owner for $50. Thats $50 in 20 minutes. A small business? Offer to deliver ads for them! Once you've earnt $500 (it took me 5 months to earn that, while doing school and on youth wage), read books on investment. Learn to invest the money. Or if you're more daring, start your own business. Fail a few times, learn like mad. Try again. Fail? Again. Again, until you suceed. Business not for you? Go to important business functions (when I was 17, I borrowed a friend's tux and snuck into business functions). Meet the people. Get free food. Make contacts, and get a job. Spend the MINIMUM, buy a house at the worst section of town, no car, no luxuries, and invest everything. Once you've done ALL THAT, come back to me, tell me you're still a Communist :) Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 17, 2003, 12:21 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	If I hear one more piece of "capitalism is a meritocracy" propoganda bullshit, I'll start the revolution right now. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 17, 2003, 12:25 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) If I hear one more piece of "capitalism is a meritocracy" propoganda bullshit, I'll start the revolution right now.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Ahh, already there is one person who criticises without experiencing it. You didn't even have time to look at the book I recommended! Any more sheep care to join him? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 17, 2003, 02:12 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	I'm not, like probably everyone else here, going to read this book. Not because I think in black and white, I certainly don't do that. Not because it may be written by someone just trying to make money. Not because I don't believe a book can change my life, a few already have. But because its a book. I already have six piled up in front of me to read in the next few weeks and I'm not putting another on the pile. However, I would like to enlighten you on a few things. Firstly, if we all tried to get rich, more than 99% will fail. Why? Because getting rich requires someone else losing some of their wealth, which means the people trying to get rich lose it, thus stopping them from getting rich, or from people who are already rich, and they protect themselves pretty well. If we were all equally succesful in our business ventures we would all be equal wealth wise. But more importantly, if everyone in the world tried business venture after business venture there would no-one plowing the fields, fishing the sea or mining the coal. Someone has to do the menial work to keep the system running while we keep trying. And I am a communist because deep down in my heart I don't want to see ethiopians dying on the tv, tramps on the street or dole lines that stretch around the corner. And the only way I can do this is through communism. Or I could try Hitlers way of killing 3 million people to make 3 million new jobs but extend this world wide, but killing people to help people kind of defeats the point. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 18, 2003, 12:24 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	The REAL reason you refuse to read the book is because you are afraid of the ideas. I can assure you that the book is not another "get rich quick" crap. In fact, Robert Kiyosaki SPECIFICALLY states that getting rich taks time, energy, and persistance. He's made thousands of attacks on dodgy get-rich schemes. The problem with people is that they are afraid to take painful short-term risks for long-term rewards. I doubt EVERYONE would dare to go out and start their own businesses; in fact, a recent survey came up with the result that only 2% of people who had READ a business book actually went out and did it! You ever hear people say "I wish I was rich" or "I wish I got a girlfriend", but they sit on their ass all day and not do it? Thats why humans suffer so much, because they sacrifice their little petty needs for long-term satisfaction. Even though I'm only a 1st-year economics student, I can figure that if EVERYONE invests 20% of their income (I put 60% of mine into business and investment), they would have a good life, while companies would still make money. But they won't. I know if we gave them EVERYTHING we could, they still will not do it. Why? Again, short-term rewards. You claim ethiopians are dying of hunger. I ask you, is Ethiopia a capitalist society? NO. Its also racked by ethnic violence (racism). Lets choose an example of an ACTUAL capitalist country: United States. Thousands of Americans, though hard work and common sense, have built comfortable lives. Not simply business owners, but architects, builders, flight attendants, waiters, etc. How? Their ability to go beyond "I wish", and into "I WILL!". Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 18, 2003, 12:54 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Like we haven't heard it all before, and are against capitalism for lack of something better to do. Please. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 18, 2003, 03:40 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) The REAL reason you refuse to read the book is because you are afraid of the ideas. I can assure you that the book is not another "get rich quick" crap. In fact, Robert Kiyosaki SPECIFICALLY states that getting rich taks time, energy, and persistance. He's made thousands of attacks on dodgy get-rich schemes. The problem with people is that they are afraid to take painful short-term risks for long-term rewards. I doubt EVERYONE would dare to go out and start their own businesses; in fact, a recent survey came up with the result that only 2% of people who had READ a business book actually went out and did it! You ever hear people say "I wish I was rich" or "I wish I got a girlfriend", but they sit on their ass all day and not do it? Thats why humans suffer so much, because they sacrifice their little petty needs for long-term satisfaction. Even though I'm only a 1st-year economics student, I can figure that if EVERYONE invests 20% of their income (I put 60% of mine into business and investment), they would have a good life, while companies would still make money. But they won't. I know if we gave them EVERYTHING we could, they still will not do it. Why? Again, short-term rewards. You claim ethiopians are dying of hunger. I ask you, is Ethiopia a capitalist society? NO. Its also racked by ethnic violence (racism). Lets choose an example of an ACTUAL capitalist country: United States. Thousands of Americans, though hard work and common sense, have built comfortable lives. Not simply business owners, but architects, builders, flight attendants, waiters, etc. How? Their ability to go beyond "I wish", and into "I WILL!".<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No, again I will not read it because I am in University and am already reading enough stuff. BTW, or you perchance the founder of Capitalism Discussion on the MSN Groups? Because that person made the same mistake as you did by comparing getting rich to getting a girlfriend. Getting rich is the acquisition of wealth-property. Women are not property. Your comparision suggests the two are similar. they are not. You are ignoring something, as I have mentioned elsewhere. If everybody tries to get rich and succeeds, as you suggest they will if they persist, then no-one will be rich. We would all be equal. But because those who are currently rich do not want this equalisation, they will use their influence to make it harder. For instance the may create monopolies, stopping anyone getting into those markets. As well as that, if we all got rich to lead these comfortable lives, who would actually do the hard work? You would have to ensure that for every person who got rich another 2 replaced them just to maintain the system. of course, those 2 would follow your plan to get rich, requiring another 2....this goes on forever. Capitalism is based on ever greater expansion, and when it stops, the bubble bursts. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 19, 2003, 10:09 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) No, again I will not read it because I am in University and am already reading enough stuff.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'm in university with 2 degrees, running a business part-time, participate actively in networking functions, and still have time to read dozens of books related to investment. I also have 24 hours each day, sleeping 9 hours. You can cancel ONE night out with the guys to read that book, or lose 2 hours of sleep to do so. Its worth it. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) As well as that, if we all got rich to lead these comfortable lives, who would actually do the hard work? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Firstly, we will not ALL be rich. It will be that 0.001% who take action that will. It is enough for the rest if they recieve a healthy source of income to keep themselves comfortable. Secondly, you are wrong in assuming that the rich never work. On the contrary, I find the rich are the HARDEST workers. Do you know Bill Gates spends at least 12 hours a day working? Rich people never sleep well. They dont live cushy comfortable lives (even rich dictators like Mao were constantly on their feet!). Thirdly, you are WRONG in assuming you have to own a business to be rich. If everyone in the world owned a single investment property, I can assure you the world will not blow up. ONE property. Some people working part-time at McDonalds have managed to acquire 500! By "comfortable", I do not refer to not working. Perhaps thats what Communism sees comfort as (and I pray that Communism will not work, or else our world is going to be full of people not working and eating!). Comfort is merely coming home with the knowledge you are not going to go into financial difficulties. Comfort is knowing you are saving enough to live on if you lose your job. Most people don't want to enter the sleepless nights of becoming extremely rich, and I understand that. To be comfortable can be as simple as owning one property with $10,000 income each year - is that so hard? My uncle went to Hong Kong with no money in his pocket, and with 20 years of hard work managed to get himself into a comfortable state. Also, I notice you socialist/communists have a tendency to equate the words "business owner" with "wealth"? Its far from true - in a business, the desire to own and operate and run a business is FAR more important than wealth. Thats why I dislike Communism; its not the material goods we fear losing, its the freedom to achieve our goals without affecting others. You got a goal you wish to achieve? Good, but make sure you don't force others into your world against their will. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 19, 2003, 12:14 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) No, again I will not read it because I am in University and am already reading enough stuff.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'm in university with 2 degrees, running a business part-time, participate actively in networking functions, and still have time to read dozens of books related to investment. I also have 24 hours each day, sleeping 9 hours. You can cancel ONE night out with the guys to read that book, or lose 2 hours of sleep to do so. Its worth it. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) As well as that, if we all got rich to lead these comfortable lives, who would actually do the hard work? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Firstly, we will not ALL be rich. It will be that 0.001% who take action that will. It is enough for the rest if they recieve a healthy source of income to keep themselves comfortable. Secondly, you are wrong in assuming that the rich never work. On the contrary, I find the rich are the HARDEST workers. Do you know Bill Gates spends at least 12 hours a day working? Rich people never sleep well. They dont live cushy comfortable lives (even rich dictators like Mao were constantly on their feet!). Thirdly, you are WRONG in assuming you have to own a business to be rich. If everyone in the world owned a single investment property, I can assure you the world will not blow up. ONE property. Some people working part-time at McDonalds have managed to acquire 500! By "comfortable", I do not refer to not working. Perhaps thats what Communism sees comfort as (and I pray that Communism will not work, or else our world is going to be full of people not working and eating!). Comfort is merely coming home with the knowledge you are not going to go into financial difficulties. Comfort is knowing you are saving enough to live on if you lose your job. Most people don't want to enter the sleepless nights of becoming extremely rich, and I understand that. To be comfortable can be as simple as owning one property with $10,000 income each year - is that so hard? My uncle went to Hong Kong with no money in his pocket, and with 20 years of hard work managed to get himself into a comfortable state. Also, I notice you socialist/communists have a tendency to equate the words "business owner" with "wealth"? Its far from true - in a business, the desire to own and operate and run a business is FAR more important than wealth. Thats why I dislike Communism; its not the material goods we fear losing, its the freedom to achieve our goals without affecting others. You got a goal you wish to achieve? Good, but make sure you don't force others into your world against their will.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No, I really don't have the time. I have maybe six hours of lectures and seminars to attend per day. I then have 2 hours of fitness training to do, followed by one hour of technique and skill development of my kung fu. I then have two hours of papers to write up for my seminars. Then theres about an hour spent answering e-mails. Anthing between an hour or two responding to you guys, depending on how bothered I can be to write proper replies. I also spend about an hour a day eating, roughly. And a few nights a week I do like to go out. And once my job starts next week there gonna have to be some shifts in my timetable again. So, really, I don't have time to read a none essential book. And how are you doing two degrees? Unless you mean two fields in one degree, or you are only doing your degree part time. Next...What is the point of us all reading this book to start these business's unless we intend to get rich? If business's don't expand and compete they risk being dominated by those who will do so, putting us out of business. Being comfortable enough not to worry about the bills means you ARE rich. If you earn more than £25 000 (or dollars, I can't remember which so I gave the benefit of the doubt and went high) per year per household you are in the top 5% of the world population? And it takes more than 25k in a household to live so comfortable not to worry about bills. Okay, say we reach this plateau of only 0.001 being rich, and everyone else "comfortable". Now what happens when the rich want to get richer? everyone else gets poorer. Are you going to cap how rich people get? And how many can get rich? But thats not capitalism. I never said the rich don't work, but the disparity between income between the owner and the worker is appaling. In Britain between the top and bottom its on average around 40x, in Germany its about 25x, but in the US its 400x. Does the guy at the top have 400x times the workload of the lowest worker? For that matter does he even do 25x the work of the lowest worker? No. And the uber rich are not the hardest workers. Someone doing 12 hours of phone calling and number juggling does not work as hard as someone doing 12 hours down a tin mine. If people are as lazy as you suggest in your counter arguments to communism elsewhere, why would people become CEO's, when they can do all that "easy work" like handploughing fields or quarrying? Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 20, 2003, 10:16 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by And how are you doing two degrees? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Commerce and Arts double degree. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by And a few nights a week I do like to go out.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Then ONE night, don't go out. Stay home, and read the book. It only took me 30 minutes to read it. But of course, you'll make up another excuse and another and another and another......(people have funny habits of making excuses to justify their failure). </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Next...What is the point of us all reading this book to start these business's unless we intend to get rich? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I never said you should start a business. Please read carefully. The book doesn't even DEAL with business. It is merely suggesting another perspective to adopt when looking at the issues of money and wealth. Also, I never began my business intending to get rich. I enjoy the art of building a business. I can get a stable 9-5 job in marketing, but that would bore me. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by And the uber rich are not the hardest workers. Someone doing 12 hours of phone calling and number juggling does not work as hard as someone doing 12 hours down a tin mine. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Your ignorance towards business owners are appalling. Have you ever met a rich person before in your life? I doubt it. I spend "12 hours of phone calling and number juggling". No wait, I spend ALL my waking hours "phone calling and juggling". Have you ever made 200 calls in one day, knowing ONE botched up call could bring you to bankruptcy? Today I was given a call by a suit asking a million questions. Know what was so hard about answering a million questions? ONE mistake and I would lose half of my life's savings. ONE MISTAKE. And down goes years of work. Please talk to some business owners before you make your stupid assumptions. No, don't. They will tear you apart before you can finish your first sentence. Stupidity isn't appreciated in business. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by If people are as lazy as you suggest in your counter arguments to communism elsewhere, why would people become CEO's, when they can do all that "easy work" like handploughing fields or quarrying?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Because we enjoy it. Yes, its got huge amounts of pressure (the majority of people who die young from stress are in fact executives and business owners). Yes, a farmer living in a CAPITALIST country (which doesnt include Rwanda, current under a socialist dictator) sitting on his tractor staring at his fields is easier work. But you know why people like us keep doing it? Cuz we love it. We love the excitement of not knowing whether the next deal could make us $100,000 or plunge us into bankruptcy. I don't pretend to speak for the entire business world (as you cannot pretend to speak on behalf of the workers), but every day is like jumping off an aircraft with a parachute - its thrilling, but dangerous. There was a man who was a drunkard, and was later convicted for murdering a fast food clerk. He had 2 sons. One son was later arrested for attempted murder, and came out of prison to be killed by a rival gang member. Another son became a comfortable manager of a regional marketing office, living a good life with wife and a kid. When asked about their situations, they both said "Its because of my dad!". In a Communist society, we would have to assume everyone is equal. Yet those 2 children were not equal, despite having come from equal father. Some people can go from poverty to wealth....others go from wealth to poverty....and yet others remain in poverty. Those who fail blame everyone, except themself. Its the governments fault. Its the tax office. Its god. But never me. Some go to poor countries to begin revolutions, and live out their dreams by oppressing others. Others fade away into oblivion. Yet some manage to suceed. YOU can suceed, if you set your mind to it. The first step is not to blame anyone. Take this advice if you want, or throw it away. Its up to you to make yourself successful, irregardless of the system you live under. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 20, 2003, 10:29 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Then why do you? This horrid logic, as any sane person knows that rich people have it off better than others. Why would one want to be rich if it was so much work and discomfort?

Oct 20, 2003, 10:48 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Because I love it. At the end of the day, I can say to myself, "This is what I have achieved today, and I am proud of it!". I couldn't say the same if I slack off all day and achieve nothing, can I? Rich people also do NOT have it better off than anyone else. Human psychology dictates that our needs are constant. Got rich? You'll want more money. Laid with a supermodel? You'll want a threesome with supermodels. Lead a Communist revolution? You'll want to become the new ruler to "guide" the people! Become a god? You'll want to be an unchallenged god! Ambition is the only aspect of humanity that does not have a greater challenger. Few people are without ambition, and it is normally due to a series of incidents that have pushd back their ambitions for survival (ie. they do not believe they can ever suceed, and enter depression). Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 20, 2003, 11:13 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Wanting more syndrome is an offspring of capitalsim.

Oct 20, 2003, 11:39 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) Wanting more syndrome is an offspring of capitalsim.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Oh yes, its the "blame the other person" disease. I've seen plenty of people do this. My (ex) business partner - on publicly embarrassing one of our biggest clients - came up with this amazing excuse: "Its not my fault, its just the room was so small and I wasn't getting enough air!". Yeah....and I bet Adolf Hitler was involved in the conspiracy. A month ago, one of my customers brought over $4000 worth of electronics, and then lost it all. He came back and told us that it wasnt his fault, it was just he had brought a bad brand of cigarettes and the smoke made him dozy, so thus he lost the $4000 worth of electronics! Reminds me of my girlfriend who couldnt stop shopping. She blamed advertising for her mania. So why wasn't I affected? Eventually I convinced her that it was HER fault for shopping. The result? No more shopping trips, no more $200 on useless goods, and I don't have to wait outside the sex shop anymore (just kidding!). Its amazing the capacity human mind has to explain their failures. Why not just say, "I suck, next time I will do it better", instead of blaming the government? So boys and girls....next time you accidently stub your toe or fall off your chair, remember, its not your fault, its capitalism's fault! Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 20, 2003, 02:33 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) Commerce and Arts double degree. Then ONE night, don't go out. Stay home, and read the book. It only took me 30 minutes to read it. But of course, you'll make up another excuse and another and another and another......(people have funny habits of making excuses to justify their failure). I never said you should start a business. Please read carefully. The book doesn't even DEAL with business. It is merely suggesting another perspective to adopt when looking at the issues of money and wealth. Also, I never began my business intending to get rich. I enjoy the art of building a business. I can get a stable 9-5 job in marketing, but that would bore me. Your ignorance towards business owners are appalling. Have you ever met a rich person before in your life? I doubt it. I spend "12 hours of phone calling and number juggling". No wait, I spend ALL my waking hours "phone calling and juggling". Have you ever made 200 calls in one day, knowing ONE botched up call could bring you to bankruptcy? Today I was given a call by a suit asking a million questions. Know what was so hard about answering a million questions? ONE mistake and I would lose half of my life's savings. ONE MISTAKE. And down goes years of work. Please talk to some business owners before you make your stupid assumptions. No, don't. They will tear you apart before you can finish your first sentence. Stupidity isn't appreciated in business. Because we enjoy it. Yes, its got huge amounts of pressure (the majority of people who die young from stress are in fact executives and business owners). Yes, a farmer living in a CAPITALIST country (which doesnt include Rwanda, current under a socialist dictator) sitting on his tractor staring at his fields is easier work. But you know why people like us keep doing it? Cuz we love it. We love the excitement of not knowing whether the next deal could make us $100,000 or plunge us into bankruptcy. I don't pretend to speak for the entire business world (as you cannot pretend to speak on behalf of the workers), but every day is like jumping off an aircraft with a parachute - its thrilling, but dangerous. There was a man who was a drunkard, and was later convicted for murdering a fast food clerk. He had 2 sons. One son was later arrested for attempted murder, and came out of prison to be killed by a rival gang member. Another son became a comfortable manager of a regional marketing office, living a good life with wife and a kid. When asked about their situations, they both said "Its because of my dad!". In a Communist society, we would have to assume everyone is equal. Yet those 2 children were not equal, despite having come from equal father. Some people can go from poverty to wealth....others go from wealth to poverty....and yet others remain in poverty. Those who fail blame everyone, except themself. Its the governments fault. Its the tax office. Its god. But never me. Some go to poor countries to begin revolutions, and live out their dreams by oppressing others. Others fade away into oblivion. Yet some manage to suceed. YOU can suceed, if you set your mind to it. The first step is not to blame anyone. Take this advice if you want, or throw it away. Its up to you to make yourself successful, irregardless of the system you live under.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> 30 mins? Ahh well you should have said so. I thought you wanted me to read a proper book. Hell Goosebumps take longer than 30 mins to read. I might read it now. Would have saved you a lot of posting just to tell me it was tiny and could be fit into a schedule. My ignorance towards business owners is like yours to the starving. However, I have talked to rich people. When I left secondary school at 16 for a sixth form, I left my dump of a town area for a more posh one. To give you an idea of the wealth these other kids had, one lad had a Merc for himself. Not him on third party with the family car. It was his Merc. That was until Xmas when his dad bought him his second car, a 1.4 Peugot 306 soft top special edition. So yes, I get to speak to a lot of people who will never have to worry about bills, and are only concerned that they may have to wear the same outfit twice in six months. Now I have come to University. I have to work now I'm here. I only know one other guy who has too. I am one of the few I know who isn't in an en suite. So that gives you an idea of the people I get to mix with nowadays. More daddies girls and trust fund babies. I'd never seen a Bentley in rl till I came down here, and now I've seen six different ones. And these people are future owners of industry, and most of them just havn't a clue what life is like for the most of us. You have to do make calls all day? Oh poor baby. Oddly enough no I havn't being that I am 18 at University. But have you ever had to watch each and everyone of your children die of AIDS, just because a handful of pharmaceuticals want to keep their profit margin? whats more important, childrens lives or profit? Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 24, 2003, 08:04 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Well, you've probably made another excuse to yourself about not reading the book. Feel free - I can think of lots of creative "Why I can't do it" excuses. Yes I care about childrens lives - unfortunately I can't see how World Vision is going to help those children living in brutal dictatorships until somebody goes over there and puts in a stable democratic system. How much donated aid did Saddam steal? 90%? 99%? Actually, when I turned on the TV today, this girl from Ethiopia or something said how she used to pick up garbage to survive. I said to myself, "Hey, thats what I did too when I was her age!". And you? How much do YOU help those starving children? Sorry, but protesting with retards doesn't do much for a child whose about to starve. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by More daddies girls and trust fund babies.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Thats your problem. They are CHILDREN of wealthy people. Did they make that wealth for themselves? No. How about you go and meet their parents? Meet the people who toiled for their wealth. I know what you are saying - those kids are spoilt, yes. I've met a lot of them when I meet up with advertisers, and frankly I'm disappointed myself at their state. However, keep in mind 84% of the rich are self-made. You heard right. 84% of rich people made their own wealth. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by You have to do make calls all day? Oh poor baby. Oddly enough no I havn't being that I am 18 at University. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> So you're a pampered 18 year old university student who lives on their parents money? You said previously you live in a posh suburb. I'm also 18 and at university. No difference. I'm starting to think you're one of those "armchair academics". You know, people who live in expensive ivory towers, who see themselves as being "part of the poor masses", but in reality have never been poor before. Like I said, feel free to go to a poor country anytime. My hometown might be a good option; before 1990 we didnt have proper sewerage systems or clean water. But don't worry. You'll never be poor. You'll just spend your life pretending to understand the poor and being a "part-time Communist". Commie by day, luxury by night eh? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 24, 2003, 09:20 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Well I'm not going to enter into this discussion after this final post because a) you don't read what I write b) you write the same thing in so many ways post after post, which then leads to me replying the same way over and over. Its boring. c) I'm getting more positive by the day that your the same person from the MSN group capitalism discussion, and we are having the same arguments again. If your not then you have a potentially great friend from China who believes, talks and even thinks the same way you do. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 27, 2003, 08:20 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	So what creative excuse do you have today for failure? Success only comes for those with the will to suceed. Even your Stalin and Mao agrees. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 27, 2003, 09:45 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Stalin was a marxist-lennist and different from a communist Mao was a Maoist STOP! I don't want to here how Stalin is on my side because he isn't!