Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

giuliano · Oct 11, 2004, 08:04 am

i'm really upset that the Libs now have control of the senate.

we no longer live in a democracy. they can do what they want for the next 3 years.

children overboard part 2? no one will ever know, they'll just block any move to have an inquiry.

idiot voters

Vee · Oct 11, 2004, 08:28 am

it isn't confirmed yet and even if family first do get the balance they might be a blessing in disguise based on the latest news

they may not sell telstra - yay
and they are not entirely happy with the coalitions industrial relations alleged reforms - yay again

giuliano · Oct 11, 2004, 08:44 am

they don't need an outright majority. they are so close all they have to do is convince one or two independents and they're home free.

it's a very dangerous situation.

Vee · Oct 11, 2004, 08:55 am

no independents in the senate I think

don't quote me on that

castille · Oct 12, 2004, 05:01 am

Quote:

Originally posted by giuliano,
i'm really upset that the Libs now have control of the senate.

idiot voters

I love it when people label those against their view as "idiots", thus suggesting only their opinion is right, and they are superior.

Sorry buddy, but just because the world disagrees with you, doesn't make them any dumber.

And by the Lady of Mercy, for some reason I just got registered to vote right before the elections. As a result I got my butt hauled to the local polling booth. I voted for Liberal, since economic issues are pretty important for my wellbeing.

And for some reason, it seems One Nation is back!

giuliano · Oct 12, 2004, 07:15 am

Quote:

Originally posted by castille,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (castille,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I love it when people label those against their view as "idiots", thus suggesting only their opinion is right, and they are superior.[/b]

nope, vote for liberal, it's your right, i'm not challenging that. i'm upset they've got control of the senate as well. that severely restricts the role of opposition parties and in my view is potentially harmful to the nation - no matter who holds that power.

i'm not telling you who to vote for.

Quote:

Originally posted by castille,@
I voted for Liberal, since economic issues are pretty important for my wellbeing.

what liberal policies make you better off? are you a doctor?

<!--QuoteBegin-castille,
And for some reason, it seems One Nation is back![/quote]

maybe the racists got upset at howard's lies about the children overboard

rcne · Oct 12, 2004, 07:51 am

It seems the voters in Australia have decided by more than a narrow margin which camp they prefer.

Its been called a mandate for Howard. I was surprised by the margin - of course I only read the on-line media.

But according to the media 'it should have been much closer'.

Just goes to show that media reporting, editorials and polling are opinionated and a 'best guess estimate'.

I do like the election system you have in Australia, and the Family First party (which was new to me - so I only have a basic understanding of it) is a viable party with a nice set of core principles.

I'd look for that party to gain in the coming years.

If only the US could build a credible third or fourth party,( who could actually win and hold some national offices) our policies and directions would be tempered by moderation.

Congratulations to the Howard supporters. I don't know if any reside here or not, but if you do Congratulations.

Vee · Oct 12, 2004, 08:00 am

family first have links to the churches of Assemblies of God so many are skeptical

some conspiracists believe they're funded by the US Christian Right

giuliano · Oct 12, 2004, 08:01 am

the problem with minority parties in the US is that you are effectively throwing your vote away.

in australia, minority parties wield real power. how that works is explained in this thread.

giuliano · Oct 12, 2004, 08:05 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Vee,
family first have links to the churches of Assemblies of God so many are skeptical

some conspiracists believe they're funded by the US Christian Right

they don't seem to be right wing. obviously they are against abortion and gay marriage, usual christian dogma. but they are in favour of concessions for asylum seekers and want an apology for indiginous people's treatment, i believe.

they seem closer to the christian left, which would make me suspect they would be unlikely to be on jerry falwell's payroll.

Vee · Oct 12, 2004, 08:29 am

i'm afraid I don't know who jerry falwell is

giuliano · Oct 12, 2004, 08:34 am

head cheese of the capitalist christian movement in america

rcne · Oct 12, 2004, 10:51 am

Vee, not knowing who Jerry Falwell is ... is a good thing.

If the family first party has anything to do with this right wing religious group - run.

Have you ever heard of the Moral Majority here in the states - thats him and his drones deciding what morality is.

castille · Oct 12, 2004, 12:20 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by giuliano,
i'm upset they've got control of the senate as well. that severely restricts the role of opposition parties and in my view is potentially harmful to the nation - no matter who holds that power.

Isn't that another phrase for "I don't like their views so they must be harmful to the nation". Besides, in a democracy - whoever is elected by the people, rules. 50+1, as the anti-democratic Malaysian president used to say (along with a string of curses against Australia).

Quote:

what liberal policies make you better off?

Taxes, buddy, taxes. I pay huge amount of taxes to Australia, and I don't see a cent of it in benefits. Almost 50% taxes to do what, support welfare bums? Support 'free' education? (its not technically free since they take taxpayers money to educate students who aren't even interested in education)

giuliano · Oct 13, 2004, 05:56 am

Quote:

Originally posted by castille,
Besides, in a democracy - whoever is elected by the people, rules.

that should include MPs not belonging to the ruling party.

Quote:

Almost 50% taxes to do what, support welfare bums? Support 'free' education? (its not technically free since they take taxpayers money to educate students who aren't even interested in education)

give me a break! i sweated my balls off to do 3 1/2 years of engineering. i am helping change this country from the colonial "built on bricks, agriculture, and wheat farming" into an internationally competitive clever economy.

what do i get for that under Howard? 3 1/2 years of foregone income, as well as a huge HECS debt!

i think i'll become a plumber instead.... don't worry about the future of the nation.

castille · Oct 13, 2004, 08:19 am

Quote:

Originally posted by giuliano,
give me a break! i sweated my balls off to do 3 1/2 years of engineering.

I'm glad you're one of the few who actually take their education seriously. However, many students don't. They take trips halfway across the world, get drunk every night, and forget their exams and end up failing.

Quote:

what do i get for that under Howard? 3 1/2 years of foregone income, as well as a huge HECS debt!

Are you sure you understand HECS?

HECS is not a bad debt. You only have to repay it if you actually make money. For example, if you spend your life as a welfare bum, you never have to repay HECS.

giuliano · Oct 13, 2004, 08:51 am

we are not a welfare state. you can't propogate this line that everyone is leaching off the govt. most students, the vast majority, work hard to earn their degree.

HECS is a genuine debt, it is not an 'easy load'. it's money that gets taken out of your salary, full stop. i have no intention of spending my life as a welfare bum, this is not a concession making HECS any easier for me.

it makes more sense to become a tradesman. you can easily make more money that way. howard's persecution of generation Y has made his baby boomers rich, while we inherit major debt.

the wealth gap between GenY and baby boomers is huge, much moreso than previous generations. this is not coincidence. howard's policies are highly discriminatory in favour of his generation.

rcne · Oct 13, 2004, 08:59 am

Is HECS a student loan type program? If it is, and its like the states, the interest rates are low, you can defer payments for things such as starting your own business and the program allows anyone who has the desire to get that education.

It took me years to pay mine off, but without a program such as this I'd never been able to get through college.

The debt you are talking about is more of an investment in the graymatter between your ears.

That education is something they can never take away. It also enables you to go anywhere you want and get a job.

Without it - where you are is where you'll stay.

giuliano · Oct 13, 2004, 09:02 am

yes sure. i enjoy my job, i would go nuts working as a tradesman.

but i am also more valuable to the economy than a low-barrier-to-entry worker, like a tradesman.

now i'm not money hungry by nature, but i do ask myself: "fine, i am not paid more than a lot of tradesmen. but why am i PENALISED so badly in comparison?"

i don't know what it's like in the US, but over here professionals are often grossly underpaid. depends on the industry.

rcne · Oct 13, 2004, 09:45 am

We have unions over here that enable entry level to make more than college graduates.

The only advantage - is - as you say the work is more interesting. And don't forget the mobility that degree gives you.

Your options to move about if you desire is a great advantage. The union jobs are boring with no chance of advancement nor mobility.

30 years on an assembly line to me would be like Hell.

Oct 11, 2004, 08:04 am	#21 (permalink)
giuliano Tres COOL Location: melbourne australia Posts: 819	i'm really upset that the Libs now have control of the senate. we no longer live in a democracy. they can do what they want for the next 3 years. children overboard part 2? no one will ever know, they'll just block any move to have an inquiry. idiot voters sheik's progressive islam online* *with editorials by bishop

Oct 11, 2004, 08:28 am	#22 (permalink)
Vee Igneous Magma Posts: 414	it isn't confirmed yet and even if family first do get the balance they might be a blessing in disguise based on the latest news they may not sell telstra - yay and they are not entirely happy with the coalitions industrial relations alleged reforms - yay again Aussies: Welcome to the Rudd Regime Yanks: Finally someone sensible in the White House Others: G'day mate.

Oct 11, 2004, 08:44 am	#23 (permalink)
giuliano Tres COOL Location: melbourne australia Posts: 819	they don't need an outright majority. they are so close all they have to do is convince one or two independents and they're home free. it's a very dangerous situation. sheik's progressive islam online* *with editorials by bishop

Oct 11, 2004, 08:55 am	#24 (permalink)
Vee Igneous Magma Posts: 414	no independents in the senate I think don't quote me on that Aussies: Welcome to the Rudd Regime Yanks: Finally someone sensible in the White House Others: G'day mate.

Oct 12, 2004, 07:51 am	#27 (permalink)
rcne Moderator/nobody Posts: 1,566	It seems the voters in Australia have decided by more than a narrow margin which camp they prefer. Its been called a mandate for Howard. I was surprised by the margin - of course I only read the on-line media. But according to the media 'it should have been much closer'. Just goes to show that media reporting, editorials and polling are opinionated and a 'best guess estimate'. I do like the election system you have in Australia, and the Family First party (which was new to me - so I only have a basic understanding of it) is a viable party with a nice set of core principles. I'd look for that party to gain in the coming years. If only the US could build a credible third or fourth party,( who could actually win and hold some national offices) our policies and directions would be tempered by moderation. Congratulations to the Howard supporters. I don't know if any reside here or not, but if you do Congratulations. Live Long and Prosper (Genetics and Capitalism)

Oct 12, 2004, 08:00 am	#28 (permalink)
Vee Igneous Magma Posts: 414	family first have links to the churches of Assemblies of God so many are skeptical some conspiracists believe they're funded by the US Christian Right Aussies: Welcome to the Rudd Regime Yanks: Finally someone sensible in the White House Others: G'day mate.

Oct 12, 2004, 08:01 am	#29 (permalink)
giuliano Tres COOL Location: melbourne australia Posts: 819	the problem with minority parties in the US is that you are effectively throwing your vote away. in australia, minority parties wield real power. how that works is explained in this thread. sheik's progressive islam online* *with editorials by bishop

Oct 12, 2004, 08:29 am	#31 (permalink)
Vee Igneous Magma Posts: 414	i'm afraid I don't know who jerry falwell is Aussies: Welcome to the Rudd Regime Yanks: Finally someone sensible in the White House Others: G'day mate.

Oct 12, 2004, 08:34 am	#32 (permalink)
giuliano Tres COOL Location: melbourne australia Posts: 819	head cheese of the capitalist christian movement in america sheik's progressive islam online* *with editorials by bishop

Oct 12, 2004, 10:51 am	#33 (permalink)
rcne Moderator/nobody Posts: 1,566	Vee, not knowing who Jerry Falwell is ... is a good thing. If the family first party has anything to do with this right wing religious group - run. Have you ever heard of the Moral Majority here in the states - thats him and his drones deciding what morality is. Live Long and Prosper (Genetics and Capitalism)

Oct 13, 2004, 08:51 am	#37 (permalink)
giuliano Tres COOL Location: melbourne australia Posts: 819	we are not a welfare state. you can't propogate this line that everyone is leaching off the govt. most students, the vast majority, work hard to earn their degree. HECS is a genuine debt, it is not an 'easy load'. it's money that gets taken out of your salary, full stop. i have no intention of spending my life as a welfare bum, this is not a concession making HECS any easier for me. it makes more sense to become a tradesman. you can easily make more money that way. howard's persecution of generation Y has made his baby boomers rich, while we inherit major debt. the wealth gap between GenY and baby boomers is huge, much moreso than previous generations. this is not coincidence. howard's policies are highly discriminatory in favour of his generation. sheik's progressive islam online* *with editorials by bishop

Oct 13, 2004, 08:59 am	#38 (permalink)
rcne Moderator/nobody Posts: 1,566	Is HECS a student loan type program? If it is, and its like the states, the interest rates are low, you can defer payments for things such as starting your own business and the program allows anyone who has the desire to get that education. It took me years to pay mine off, but without a program such as this I'd never been able to get through college. The debt you are talking about is more of an investment in the graymatter between your ears. That education is something they can never take away. It also enables you to go anywhere you want and get a job. Without it - where you are is where you'll stay. Live Long and Prosper (Genetics and Capitalism)

Oct 13, 2004, 09:02 am	#39 (permalink)
giuliano Tres COOL Location: melbourne australia Posts: 819	yes sure. i enjoy my job, i would go nuts working as a tradesman. but i am also more valuable to the economy than a low-barrier-to-entry worker, like a tradesman. now i'm not money hungry by nature, but i do ask myself: "fine, i am not paid more than a lot of tradesmen. but why am i PENALISED so badly in comparison?" i don't know what it's like in the US, but over here professionals are often grossly underpaid. depends on the industry. sheik's progressive islam online* *with editorials by bishop

Oct 13, 2004, 09:45 am	#40 (permalink)
rcne Moderator/nobody Posts: 1,566	We have unions over here that enable entry level to make more than college graduates. The only advantage - is - as you say the work is more interesting. And don't forget the mobility that degree gives you. Your options to move about if you desire is a great advantage. The union jobs are boring with no chance of advancement nor mobility. 30 years on an assembly line to me would be like Hell. Live Long and Prosper (Genetics and Capitalism)