Should CIA Kidnappers Be Kidnapped?

[PatrickHenry]

So that they can stand trial in the nations where they are accused?

I assume that the US will refuse to extradite them...

See, they kidnapped others and shipped them in secret flights so that they could be tortured. Not to stand trial. To be tortured...
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Germany issues CIA arrest orders
CNN.com - Italy warrants for 22 purported CIA operatives - Dec 23, 2005

Why should US kidnappers not be kidnapped if that is such a wonderful method of correcting the world's problems?

[Chris]

Well, its the bad argument that is "eye for an eye" and is a bad idea.

These guys also used torture as a means of getting the victims to "sing" whatever they wanted.

[saltinespike]

I think that if any country has a problem with it, they should address the whole nation, not have a secret war. Exploit what they are doing and the product could be discontinuing their torture methods. Many do not know about what the CIA does, and almost all the theories are not proven.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Chris Well, its the bad argument that is "eye for an eye" and is a bad idea. These guys also used torture as a means of getting the victims to "sing" whatever they wanted.

If a nation refuses to hand over those indicted to stand trial in another nation, shouldn't they be kidnapped?

I am not excusing kidnapping for the purpose of torture, but to face court proceedings.

So it's hardly "an eye for an eye..."

[Redden]

I think they should.

It only makes sense. There is no actual legal reason to keep them here, its just because they obviously don't want to go to court. I would say too bad.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Redden I think they should. It only makes sense. There is no actual legal reason to keep them here, its just because they obviously don't want to go to court. I would say too bad.

Redden, the issue is that their nation ORDERED them to do those dirty deeds.
But if a CIA man ever had to stand trial for his crimes, the spooks would be reluctant to pull that stuff in the future...

[Setnakt]

"Just because it's your job doesn't make it right."

[saltinespike]

Quote by: Setnakt "Just because it's your job doesn't make it right."

But should you be prosecuted for the job you do? The is the core of the debate in my eyes. You do the action, correct, but not under your decision.

[RickSp]

Kidnapping is a crime in any civilized nation. Those guilty of kidnapping should be extradited for their crimes. No one, even an imperial power like the United States, is above the law.

[Jack]

But if a CIA man ever had to stand trial for his crimes, the spooks would be reluctant to pull that stuff in the future...

Did the Gary Powers trial end U2 flights? Not at all.

I don't know of a foreign government with the knowledge and training required to commit a kidnapping like you suggest on U.S. soil. Our counter-intelligence agencies are prepared for just such an action. I rather doubt another country's agents would be successful in their attempt.

[nilan3000]

They cant be punished in a court of law unless it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that the CIA agents did kidnap these guys for torture. I dont see that happening.

Besides, they would just pull some 'national security' defence and get their boys off the hook.

[GHook93]

Quote by: PatrickHenry So that they can stand trial in the nations where they are accused? I assume that the US will refuse to extradite them... See, they kidnapped others and shipped them in secret flights so that they could be tortured. Not to stand trial. To be tortured... BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Germany issues CIA arrest orders CNN.com - Italy warrants for 22 purported CIA operatives - Dec 23, 2005 Why should US kidnappers not be kidnapped if that is such a wonderful method of correcting the world's problems?

Maybe we should also do what the Islamic Terrorist do: Cut of prisoners heads, middle-age style torture, creating cultures were 90%+ are Muslims, etc.

Is that the type of freedom you are looking for PH?
Blind hatred for "your" country is not a good way to get followers to support your cause.

[tmay563]

I agree Ghook.

[Osborn F Enready]

For the U.S. to claim individual rights, and officially deny them, and then seek removal of trial from bringing their OWN terrorists to justice, is hypocritical to the extreme.

[Slevin57]

No, I do not believe they should be extradited so long as they are authorized to use methods of aggressive coercion.

These methods have been around for thousands of years. We have been using them since we became a nation. I realize many countries have "outlawed" this practice, but in all fairness most of them also have green armed forces and are not engaged in war.

I personally support torture. We don't just draw and quarter people to get them to talk. They have ample opportunities after being captured to "tell us what we want to know." If they are not willing to voluntarily divulge the information, then I have no problem doing whatever is necessary to retrieve that information.

The United States cannot afford to take a moral high ground on this one. Moral high grounds always cost lives. Being the better man still gets us killed.

I find it hard to believe that any militant group would accept anyone back that has been detained by the CIA. They have no idea of knowing what the person said to them, or even if they are now working for the CIA in exchange for amnesty.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Isherwood Did the Gary Powers trial end U2 flights? Not at all. I don't know of a foreign government with the knowledge and training required to commit a kidnapping like you suggest on U.S. soil. Our counter-intelligence agencies are prepared for just such an action. I rather doubt another country's agents would be successful in their attempt.

Boy, I don't know.


Remember the Russian spy who defected, and told of all the burried caches with weapons, and ammunition inside this country? ( Which turned out to be legitimate. )


I can't remember the exact program I watched about this, but I think it was Moyers on PBS.

[saltinespike]

Quote by: Slevin57 I personally support torture. We don't just draw and quarter people to get them to talk. They have ample opportunities after being captured to "tell us what we want to know." If they are not willing to voluntarily divulge the information, then I have no problem doing whatever is necessary to retrieve that information.

The CIA is so set on getting "what they need to know" that I could tell them that my Muslim neighbor has some information on a terrorist hit and he would disappear witohut warning. If they torture him, to get the information they need to know, though he knows nothing, is that doing "whatever is necessary"? It wouldn't necessarily be my fault, either, if I truly believed he had information. I do not, in any aspect, condone torture, even if it as a known fact that the person knows something. That leads to people lying, in which they are held prisoner until the lie happens, which, inevitably, will not, in which they get tortured more.

Quote by: Slevin57 These methods have been around for thousands of years. We have been using them since we became a nation. I realize many countries have "outlawed" this practice, but in all fairness most of them also have green armed forces and are not engaged in war.

Wonderful reasoning. Since we have done it for centuries, why stop now? There are better, cleaner ways to win a war. And the fact that this war is becoming unnecessary, is even more against your position. We are still interrogating people for weapons of mass destruction, because we cannot accept innocense from them.

It's like the trials of the crusades. If the woman drowns, she wasn't a witch, but if she managed to survive, she's a witch! So now we get to kill her. It's a lose-lose situation.

Quote by: Slevin57 The United States cannot afford to take a moral high ground on this one. Moral high grounds always cost lives. Being the better man still gets us killed.

This is a foolish statement. I am sure that if we respected insurgents when captured, then they would be sure to think worse of us. Actually, if we respected them, they would kill more of us. No, that is silly.

Seeing as we have not yet tried to "be the better man", I don't think that you are in a position to say this honestly. Give an example.

Quote by: Slevin57 I find it hard to believe that any militant group would accept anyone back that has been detained by the CIA. They have no idea of knowing what the person said to them, or even if they are now working for the CIA in exchange for amnesty.

I don't know what this has to do with anything, but since you brought it up...

You are right. If the CIA does let the victim free and he does return to his militant group, he will most likely be tortured there. And killed. A soiled man has nothing to live for, anyways. The whole situation is just adding salt to the wounds.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: GHook93 Maybe we should also do what the Islamic Terrorist do: Cut of prisoners heads, middle-age style torture, creating cultures were 90%+ are Muslims, etc. Is that the type of freedom you are looking for PH? Blind hatred for "your" country is not a good way to get followers to support your cause.

Why would you espouse that type of government actions? Are you excited by blood? Do you torture the little kittens in your neighborhood?

Do you see if you can lure latchkey kids into your kitchen and then disassemble them with your boning knife? I'll bet you do...

I was asking about a policy of kidnapping by other world powers. If the US is willing to order ITS operatives to kidnap for the purpose of torture, shouldn't other nations kidnap the kidnappers if the US refuses to extradite them?

Just seeing if the US has a taste for what it does in other nations, in a turnabout...

[Epistemologist]

This sort of brings to mind the movie Munich in which Israeli operatives murdered Palestinian agents. But then the Israeli operatives were also assassinated or at least attempted to be assassinated.

In the objective sense, no country really has a moral high ground, and all agents should be susceptible to kidnapping. However, it's often the case that might makes right, which might be unfortunate considering that this "right" does not necessarily correspond with what is actually just.

And let's not forget that each patriot would side with his/her own country, and what's right for that country would be what's right for that person. So the issue gets hazy, and if you ask an American "patriot" (in the general sense of the term), they would say that it's not okay for CIA agents to be kidnapped.

However, I say they should be kidnapped or at least allowed the possibility to be kidnapped. I'm sure as even current events can tell us, Americans are not by any means absolutely just or demigods.

[saltinespike]

Quote by: Epistemologist This sort of brings to mind the movie Munich in which Israeli operatives murdered Palestinian agents. But then the Israeli operatives were also assassinated or at least attempted to be assassinated. In the objective sense, no country really has a moral high ground, and all agents should be susceptible to kidnapping. However, it's often the case that might makes right, which might be unfortunate considering that this "right" does not necessarily correspond with what is actually just. And let's not forget that each patriot would side with his/her own country, and what's right for that country would be what's right for that person. So the issue gets hazy, and if you ask an American "patriot" (in the general sense of the term), they would say that it's not okay for CIA agents to be kidnapped. However, I say they should be kidnapped or at least allowed the possibility to be kidnapped. I'm sure as even current events can tell us, Americans are not by any means absolutely just or demigods.

I understand what you mean, but your wording is a bit out-of-order. Do you truly think that we should give them a chance to kidnap them?

If they succeed, we might not declare war, but we should not just place the agents out in the open. We should do our best to protect them, let the countries take a risk, do all we can to stop them. But if they succeed, they succeed. Is that what you were getting at?