republican refugee

[bishop]

(this might sound a little anecdotal, but please bear with me)


once upon a time i was pro-bush.. i voted for him after being disguisted with gore's pandering to special interest groups and his big government ideas. i gave buchanan serious consideration, but the religious zealot factor (and his historical ties with white supremacist groups) ended that fast. being the open minded guy that i am, i even went to a nader rally in madison square garden, just to hear his ideas. (i liked some of them, but disagreed with the vast majority)

anyways... i voted for bush. and for the first 2 years, i was a strong supporter and did my little part to give intellectual support to his policies. and then the downward slope began...

i've always been a moderate republican. very similar to mccain, but with strong libertarian leanings (pro-choice, against the war on drugs, etc..). gradually, i saw the influence of the religious right creeping into the fray.. somehow, gop = god. ashcroft using public property to hold bible study/prayer sessions. pro-bush evangelicals began demonizing all muslims (as if they all were pro-terrorism). then bush calls this new war a "crusade". put a bad taste in my mouth..

after 9/11 hit, most of us rallied behind the president. i was admittedly naive in believing him when he talked up the supposed threat that iraq posed to us. i agreed that we should be demanding that saddam disarm because if any nefarious leader would think of subcontracting terrorists - saddam would. in the months leading up to the war, i witnessed rumsfeld unleashed, flapping his mouth every single chance he could.. wreaking unacceptable havok to our long-term alliances. meanwhile, we cozied up even closer to sharon's vile government - giving increasingly more aid to military operations rather than aid to israel's economy. (talk about isolating ourselves from the rest of the world)

but then almost in a dizzy rush, bush hits the button and we invade iraq.. no substantial support, no pronounced exit strategy, no true legitimacy in the eyes of the world.. over a year later, have any of his statements been validated? have we found definitive evidence linking iraq to al qaeda (to 9/11)? nope. have we found any active wmd programs? nope. have we found any stockpiles of wmd? nope. we did find one measly, crusty assed artillery round though - which doesn't vindicate bush whatsoever. have we found scores of iraqi's greeting us as liberators? nope.

the war ends, bush shows off on the aircraft carrier... the war turns into a war of attrition. billions of (debt) dollars are given to iraq for things like education and healthcare (gee, if you're gonna spend money for those things - how about giving them to americans?!?!?)... we play imperialist games with post-war contracts, doling out the spoils of war. we even go so far as to withhold the financial aid we promised countries that supported (and even participated in) our invasion. etc...

meanwhile, i look at the disaster that is our ballooning federal deficit. i look at bush's spending programs, inability to exercise even the slightest shred of fiscal responsibility (veto???), etc.. spending like a drunken sailor indeed. the only person to have increased spending similar to bush was lbj - and we know how history views lbj... the sort of spending that would make a democrat blush. his policies will cause us severe economic pains in the future, but, i suppose the average bush supporter feels that the future is inconsequential.


i see all of these things, and being a rational, sane person, i simply find bush's record to be unacceptable. what he has become is NOTHING even close to the platform he once campaigned on. for the life of me, i do not understand why people who voted for him support him as if he's the second coming of christ. i don't know if it's denial or post-9/11 hysteria, but it sure as hell isn't rational thought. the only way for the remaining pro-bush people to support their views is to demonize the opposition - rather than speak to bush's "accomplishments". their typical response is - "i don't agree with everything that bush has done, but you have to admit, kerry would be far, far worse.". i see kerry talking about empowering the middle class, repairing our alliances etc... that's supposed to be worse??? meanwhile, right-wing/fascist republicans (like tom delay) have moved to isolate moderate republicans and even boot them out of the party. i love how they ridicule mccain and even post right-wing republicans to run against moderate republicans. (talk about being inclusive)

the new face of the republican party is morphing into something fascist. its proponents are increasingly less interested in compromise and debate - and more interested in force and fear. i can't have any part of that.

as of now, i consider myself as being a republican for kerry. first and foremost, we need to bring sanity back to our country.

does that label/characterization fit anyone here?

[PatrickHenry]

Not me. I'm not a fan of Big Government anymore. Anything short of returning to Constitutional rule and ending the five Declared States of Emergency which have been in continuous effect for the last 71 years is no option. Honor the Tenth Amendment. Honor the Founders' foresight in the balance they built into our government framework. Debate real issues. IMO, Washington, DC is not your friend...

edited-typo

[bishop]

believe me, i share your opposition to big government. i do, however, feel that they need to develop concrete plans on how to reform the government and return certain public services back to states and taxpayers. i don't feel the libertarian perspective has done enough to explain how they'd achieve such aspirations. i'm all ears though. (i'm a big supporter of the cato institute btw)

in this election though, one of two men will win. i have been considering going libertarian as well, but quite frankly, the thought of another 4 years of bush scares the shit out of me. i'm a fan of taking things one thing at a time - and right now the priority is to get that man out of the white house.

[Young]

Dear Bishop,

Fear not my Republican friend, I have been sailing the same sea for awile. Although I can't bring myself to Vote for Kerry. I shall drive to the Poll and Honor my Families many War veterans by casting a meaningless vote for Nader. It seems like Our party has been Hijacked, puppets controlled by corporations have used money to get into office. Our country is being destroyed from both sides, I just hope that America will wake up soon...because even if we all worked together it would take a Revolution to remove this horrible stain.


Young

[bishop]

just like i responded to p.h., i worry about casting 3rd party votes this time around.. i would love to, but quite honestly, removing bush is priority #1 - and i have no illusions that someone other than bush or kerry will win the election. bush is a war monger in the same way that saddam, milosevich and hitler were as far as i'm concerned.

of course, i do rejoice every time i see a republican speak out and say that they're not voting for bush.


i agree with many green party policies (they include lots of libertarian perspectives).. right now, though, i would be satisfied to return to the general sanity that existed during the clinton years, and work from there.

[m5lange1]

People opposed to big government have no candidate in the big TWO this time around.

Democrats may spend like a drunken lottery winner and Republicans may reduce taxes as if government income was as unnecessary as whale wings but G. Dubya spends like a democrat and taxes like a republican. The worst of both worlds.

Not seeing much advantage in Kerry either.

I guess I am leaning a bit toward Kerry since I think tax and spend is better than borrow and spend (a real no-brainer there).
Hell, I can make my home budget look good for a while too (until all the consolidation loans come due anyway).

Still with a bubblegum economy that is sure to pop and leave goo all over our children .......and a war being declared (or not actually declared but being fought) against a crime instead of a nation....... I would really like to see a change in leadership Not just a shift of parties and a quick rewrite changing support to condemnation of the same policies by the talk show hosts.

M5

[bishop]

guess I am leaning a bit toward Kerry since I think tax and spend is better than borrow and spend (a real no-brainer there).

yeah.. i've been saying for months now that the only thing worse than a tax and spend democrat is a tax cutting and spending republican. (and bush's spending is nothing to balk at)

kerry might have a good impact as far as balancing the budget is concerned.. look at what clinton + a republican congress were able to accomplish.

i definitely don't think he will be anything close to being our "domestic savior".. social security and all our other welfare programs need to be reformed NOW. (as an aside, clinton actually began taking steps to partially privatize such programs during the end of his 2nd term) i'd love to see that happen, but i have no illusion that voting for bush, kerry, lp or green will alter what will happen these next 4-5 years.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by bishop, in this election though, one of two men will win. i have been considering going libertarian as well, but quite frankly, the thought of another 4 years of bush scares the shit out of me. i'm a fan of taking things one thing at a time - and right now the priority is to get that man out of the white house.

I know how you feel. I have been a registered Libertarian for about 18 years now and have voted for ANY Libertarian on any ticket, as I haven't seen any big benefit to voting for the big two, but this time, I'm afraid I may vote for Kerry. Of course this would be only a strictly anti-Bush vote because the man worries me, for all the reasons stated above. Of course I worry more about his blind supporters, but I can't vote THEM out. But I will feel better when they can stop supporting this prancing cowboy and return to their beloved talk show hosts to fume about Kerry.

[Milton Bradley]

Well, they have everybody in this thread accept Patrick, and Young.


When are the rest of you going to realize iits all just a big game of "good cop, bad cop".


You have fallen right into their trap of two chioces, Coke or Pepsi, nevermend that RC Cola over there, COKE, or PEPSI!


I still cannot beleive I have to point this out to people in the year 2004.


Third party, or REVOLT!

[bishop]

yeah... this new wave of conservatism (read: fascism) definitely isn't monopolized by the bush administration.. it's largely neocons, christian fundamentalists, and people who are generally selfish + unscrupulous.. the whole wave of people who support newt gingrich and tom delay.

4 more years of bush = 4 more years to send us into bullshit wars and push our country's finances closer to default. you really couldn't have done worse than bush.. and better yet - another 4 more years = hillary clinton running for office in 2008. *gasp*

my vote for kerry is largely anti-bush. but, i am convinced that kerry will aim to repair our alliances with our traditional allies - who we need now more than ever in the war on terror. (i also like that kerry seems to be more concerned about middle class issues than bush - not that i agree with his positions 100%, but they're much better than bush's alternative.)

hopefully, if kerry win's the election, some sanity can return to how this country conducts itself in the world. then, i'll feel MUCH more comfortable voting for whoever i want - without fear.

[m3talsmith]

Originally posted by Scribbler1,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Scribbler1,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-bishop, in this election though, one of two men will win. i have been considering going libertarian as well, but quite frankly, the thought of another 4 years of bush scares the shit out of me. i'm a fan of taking things one thing at a time - and right now the priority is to get that man out of the white house.

I know how you feel. I have been a registered Libertarian for about 18 years now and have voted for ANY Libertarian on any ticket, as I haven't seen any big benefit to voting for the big two, but this time, I'm afraid I may vote for Kerry. Of course this would be only a strictly anti-Bush vote because the man worries me, for all the reasons stated above. Of course I worry more about his blind supporters, but I can't vote THEM out. But I will feel better when they can stop supporting this prancing cowboy and return to their beloved talk show hosts to fume about Kerry.[/b][/quote]
If it's a strictly anti-bush vote than voting for the Libertarians will do even better. Believe me when I say that Bush will be struggling to get votes as it is. Kerry doesn't need help in beating bush, Libertarians need help in beating Kerry.

As I see it the race is really between Democrats and Libertarians.

[m3talsmith]

Originally posted by bishop, yeah... this new wave of conservatism (read: fascism) definitely isn't monopolized by the bush administration.. it's largely neocons, christian fundamentalists, and people who are generally selfish + unscrupulous.. the whole wave of people who support newt gingrich and tom delay. 4 more years of bush = 4 more years to send us into bullshit wars and push our country's finances closer to default. you really couldn't have done worse than bush.. and better yet - another 4 more years = hillary clinton running for office in 2008. *gasp* my vote for kerry is largely anti-bush. but, i am convinced that kerry will aim to repair our alliances with our traditional allies - who we need now more than ever in the war on terror. (i also like that kerry seems to be more concerned about middle class issues than bush - not that i agree with his positions 100%, but they're much better than bush's alternative.) hopefully, if kerry win's the election, some sanity can return to how this country conducts itself in the world. then, i'll feel MUCH more comfortable voting for whoever i want - without fear.

Voting for Kerry is the same as voting for someone with the same character and attitude of Bush. You'll be getting the same man in there. Just look at the main issues, and see if you can see a diferrence in stances between Bush and Kerry.

A lot of people are going to be cursing themselves for voting Kerry or Bush this election. Again Bush isn't going to win no matter what you do (unless you lose all rationale and vote for Bush). Just witholding your vote from Bush is enough to defeat him. You might as well put the witheld vote where you really want it; greens, libertarians, or otherwise.

[bishop]

that is your opinion... i disagree with it.

kerry is FAR from being of the same character and attitude of bush. his own personal history alone proves that. and he's no chickenhawk, the man volunteered and fought for his country.

i have looked very closely at their positions on a variety of issues. there are very noticeable differences in those positions. i actually found myself agreeing with kerry on a host of those positions - and virtually ever position when it came down to foreign policy. so, voting for kerry isn't strictly an anti-bush vote - it was a mistake on my part to suggest that.

i'm not as diametrically opposed to the two party system as some here may be. i do feel that the system could benefit greatly from stronger third parties however.

i have to ask myself whether i can accept the notion of bush winning a second term because not enough people voted for his leading opponent. and, i can't accept that possibility.

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Milton Bradley, Well, they have everybody in this thread accept Patrick, and Young. When are the rest of you going to realize iits all just a big game of "good cop, bad cop". You have fallen right into their trap of two chioces, Coke or Pepsi, nevermend that RC Cola over there, COKE, or PEPSI! I still cannot beleive I have to point this out to people in the year 2004. Third party, or REVOLT!

And I can't believe I have to point out that in the real world, at this time, no third party can do better than a small percentage of the total (ALL 3rd parties COMBINED got 5.32% of the votes cast last election) and these votes will never beat Bush. I've been putting my money where my mouth is, voting L.P. for almost twenty years and would never have thought I'd say I will vote Democrat, until Bush began damaging this nation in a way I never thought possible.

It pains me more than you know, but I am convinced the best thing to do for the country at this time is to get rid of Bush. I will of course not do it again, but this time I firmly believe it is the truly patriotic thing to do.

[bishop]

my sentiments exactly scribbler... although, my voting history is different than yours, the perspective is the same.

[Osborn F Enready]

Scribbler said: And I can't believe I have to point out that in the real world, at this time, no third party can do better than a small percentage of the total (ALL 3rd parties COMBINED got 5.32% of the votes cast last election) and these votes will never beat Bush. I've been putting my money where my mouth is, voting L.P. for almost twenty years and would never have thought I'd say I will vote Democrat, until Bush began damaging this nation in a way I never thought possible.

It pains me more than you know, but I am convinced the best thing to do for the country at this time is to get rid of Bush. I will of course not do it again, but this time I firmly believe it is the truly patriotic thing to do.

I say: Well Scribbler, if you look at how many people in just this forum are realizing how bad Bush is, and add in the fact that Aaron Russo brought a LOT of new people to the LP this year and every political forum I have found has some. If the Open Debates allows a platform as they promise, of direct confrontation and discussion of issues, I have no doubt Michael Badnarik can win this by exposing Bush and Kerry for what they are. If Badnarik is not allowed into the debates this year, and if the open debates and voting reform go down in flames, it may be time for the people to remember the reason we are to keep and bear arms.

George Washingtons Farewell Address shows exactly where we have strayed, and its proven effects are all around us. If you haven't read it, check it out, and ask yourself where are the men/women of today like him? "My" only answer would be Badnarik.


George Washingtons Farewell Address;
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/...emocrac/49.htm

[dotcoma]

casting a meaningless vote for Nader

It's not meaningless. And vote libertarian if you lean to the "right"...They've got a great candidiate.

[bishop]

i'll vote libertarian if i'm totally confident that kerry will be winning the vote in my state. by that time, i'll be a resident of MA.

[dotcoma]

It doesn't matter. Kerry is worse than Bush in A TON of ways. They are playing for the same team, they just wear different coloured uniforms to confuse the public. Don't be fooled by King Kerry OR Lord Bush.

[Compugasm]

Originally posted by roxdog, Don't be fooled by King Kerry OR Lord Bush.

How about Baron Bush? King Kerry and Baron Bush, good alliteration.