Turkey's anguish over secularism

[Matt W]

Turkey's ideological struggle between secularism and Islam has seen huge protests in the capital, Ankara. Turks are well aware that if it continues, the military may decide to step in. A couple of weeks ago a new poster appeared outside my local supermarket. It was a photograph of a smiling Abdullah Gul with a message underneath - "Congratulations!" That now looks more than a little premature. Mr Gul's nomination for president sparked such a strong reaction here it is now highly unlikely the foreign minister will ever take up residence in the president's Pink Palace. But these are uncertain times in Turkish politics, so I would not bet on anything.

BBC NEWS | Programmes | From Our Own Correspondent | Turkey's anguish over secularism

I'm actually surprised this hasn't been mentioned earlier - the struggle for the Turkish constitution. Thoughts?

[The Decider]

Quote by: Matt W I'm actually surprised this hasn't been mentioned earlier - the struggle for the Turkish constitution. Thoughts?

I too am surprised. This topic is pregnant with irony.

First, "the struggle for the Turkish constitution." In the name of saving "secularism" and "Western values," the Turkish military threatened a coup d'etat against Turkey's elected government. That same Turkish military has some of the region's worst right-wing fascist authoritarians imaginable. This was the institution responsible for the Armenian genocide and later "respect" for German Nazis.

Second, what precipitated this "constitutional crisis?" Islamic headscarves! Mind you, we're not talking about some new law to mandate Islamic headscarves for every Turkish female. No. The wife of the president had the audacity to wear a headscarf in public! Today, the First Lady wears the headscarf, tomorrow sharia law in Turkey! What a bunch of crap.

Third, who are these Islamic threats to the constitution? The president, Erdogan, once belonged to an Islamic party. "Once belonged," as in "the past." He has pledged to uphold all of Turkey's secular laws, as had his putative successor, Gul. There were no threats to establish an Islamic state. None.

Fourth, what did the current government do wrong besides permit wives to wear headscarves? The Turkish economy, compared to the not so distant past, is booming. The "Islamicist" leaders--these enemies of the West--are pushing for inclusion into the EU. They WANT to join the European community. They have expressed a willingness to withdraw from Cyprus, settle disagreements with Greece, leave the Kurds in northern Iraq alone, and reform Turkey's economy.

Finally, why shouldn't democracy take its course in Turkey? If democracy can't work in Turkey, it won't work anywhere in the Middle East, Near East, and the Far East. The West should oppose this military pressure and live up to its rhetoric about democracy. Or forever shut their mouths about "constitutions" and the joys of secular living.

[BobbyO]

The Turkish millitary is not all descended from the Armenian genocide. That was -ahem- the Islamic state caliphate under the Emirs. The current millitary is constitutionally obligated to uphold the republic and the secular state of Turkey. Gul et. al are indeed fundamentalist Moslems. A couple of things to know:

1. Turkey owns all the mosques and the schools. It approves the sermons given. The state keeps it out of the hands of the Islamic radicals. The idea of the call for separation of mosque and state is a call so they can take the schools and mosques over, and train radical islamic clerics.

2. The desire to join the EU is nothing but politics. They know the EU will never allow Turkey in with its current constitutional system. So the effort costs them nothing, and might prove beneficial if it convinces some to marginalise the millitary's role in Turkey.

3. Th hajib which wife of Gul wears is a political headress, along the lines of what was made fashionable by the Ayatollah Khomeni. It is not some Anatolian peasant traditional headdress.

[The Decider]

Quote by: BobbyO The Turkish millitary is not all descended from the Armenian genocide. That was -ahem- the Islamic state caliphate under the Emirs. The current millitary is constitutionally obligated to uphold the republic and the secular state of Turkey.

The founder of modern Turkey, Kemal Ataturk, was an officer in the Ottoman Army and a supporter of the infamous Committee of Union and Progress that organized the Armenian genocide. Turkey's military descends from mass murderers. Is it surprising that Ataturk, the father of Turkish secularism, admired Adolf Hitler? Secularism and fascism were bosom buddies in recent world history.

Quote by: BobbyO A couple of things to know: 1. Turkey owns all the mosques and the schools. It approves the sermons given. The state keeps it out of the hands of the Islamic radicals. The idea of the call for separation of mosque and state is a call so they can take the schools and mosques over, and train radical islamic clerics.

Ah, pure secularism! The military controls Turkey's mosques and schools (and Christian churches too)! Just like in America---government controlled churches and Sunday schools! Yep---"seperation of church and state!"

Quote by: BobbyO 2. The desire to join the EU is nothing but politics. They know the EU will never allow Turkey in with its current constitutional system. So the effort costs them nothing, and might prove beneficial if it convinces some to marginalise the millitary's role in Turkey.

Huh? This comment makes no sense. The "constitutional system" that keeps Turkey out of the EU is the one dominated by the military!! You know, the "secularists" who control mosques, churches, and religious schools. The same military that invaded and still occupies eastern Cyprus. The EU refuses to accept a military dictatorship into its organization; hence, the EU has condemned this recent military interference in Turkey's democracy.

Economically, Turkey has improved over the past five years under the current government. They want less militarism. No wonder the military is so upset; they may have to serve civilian masters....perish the thought!

Quote by: BobbyO 3. Th hajib which wife of Gul wears is a political headress, along the lines of what was made fashionable by the Ayatollah Khomeni. It is not some Anatolian peasant traditional headdress.

It's personal attire! Gul opposes legislation to mandate hijab for Turkey's women. He's said so repeatedly. The military is using his wife's fashion choice to construct a slippery slope argument for a military coup--"Today Mrs. Gul's hijab, tomorrow your daughters!" The EU rejects that argument, why can't you Bobby O?

[BobbyO]

Quote by: The Decider The founder of modern Turkey, Kemal Ataturk, was an officer in the Ottoman Army and a supporter of the infamous Committee of Union and Progress that organized the Armenian genocide. Turkey's military descends from mass murderers. Is it surprising that Ataturk, the father of Turkish secularism, admired Adolf Hitler? Secularism and fascism were bosom buddies in recent world history. Ah, pure secularism! The military controls Turkey's mosques and schools (and Christian churches too)! Just like in America---government controlled churches and Sunday schools! Yep---"seperation of church and state!" Huh? This comment makes no sense. The "constitutional system" that keeps Turkey out of the EU is the one dominated by the military!! You know, the "secularists" who control mosques, churches, and religious schools. The same military that invaded and still occupies eastern Cyprus. The EU refuses to accept a military dictatorship into its organization; hence, the EU has condemned this recent military interference in Turkey's democracy. Economically, Turkey has improved over the past five years under the current government. They want less militarism. No wonder the military is so upset; they may have to serve civilian masters....perish the thought! It's personal attire! Gul opposes legislation to mandate hijab for Turkey's women. He's said so repeatedly. The military is using his wife's fashion choice to construct a slippery slope argument for a military coup--"Today Mrs. Gul's hijab, tomorrow your daughters!" The EU rejects that argument, why can't you Bobby O?

Turkey is not a millitary dictatorship (though it certainly can and has been)- nor do they not have to serve an elected civilian leadership. But Turkey's millitary has a constitutional role in preserving the secular, non-fundamentalist state against internal threats from those who would seek to reverse this course. The EU doesn't like this constitutional arrangement. Fine. But this does place Turkey in a tough spot as Erdogan, Gul et. al ARE Islamic fundamentalists- and the problem they present for Turkey is real (though debateable as to what extent, as Gul et. al. were elected only because the secular parties split).

Its gratifying to read though your agreement that "fascism" and "secularism" are closely intertwined, as it is usually argued that "fascism" and "religious fundamentalism" are the blood brothers.

Turkey has never claimed to represent a "separation of church and state" which in any event would never reach the levels seen in the USA (for the simple reason that Europe's "separation of church and state" itself is nowhere near as "separate" as the USA).

The EU ought to be encouraging Turkey to continue to move toward western values (as far as Turkey can). It should not encourage movements within Turkey who clearly do not have it, even if they feign that they do.

[The Decider]

Quote by: BobbyO Turkey is not a millitary dictatorship (though it certainly can and has been)- nor do they not have to serve an elected civilian leadership.

Turkey's military just threatened a military coup last week if it didn't get its way politically. You say that isn't dictatorship. Whatever.

Quote by: BobbyO But Turkey's millitary has a constitutional role in preserving the secular, non-fundamentalist state against internal threats from those who would seek to reverse this course. The EU doesn't like this constitutional arrangement. Fine. But this does place Turkey in a tough spot as Erdogan, Gul et. al ARE Islamic fundamentalists- and the problem they present for Turkey is real (though debateable as to what extent, as Gul et. al. were elected only because the secular parties split).

How has Erdogan hurt Turkey while in government? How would Gul hurt Turkey as his replacement? Specific statements and actions by those men would help your argument.

Quote by: BobbyO Its gratifying to read though your agreement that "fascism" and "secularism" are closely intertwined, as it is usually argued that "fascism" and "religious fundamentalism" are the blood brothers.

Fascism is an equal-opportunity ideology. It doesn't discriminate by race, creed, religion, or income level. Turkey has had more than its share of experience with this illness, and the secular military is the carrier.

Quote by: BobbyO Turkey has never claimed to represent a "separation of church and state" which in any event would never reach the levels seen in the USA (for the simple reason that Europe's "separation of church and state" itself is nowhere near as "separate" as the USA).

While true, we need to remember what "secularism" means in Turkey. Americans certainly wouldn't recognize it.

Quote by: BobbyO The EU ought to be encouraging Turkey to continue to move toward western values (as far as Turkey can). It should not encourage movements within Turkey who clearly do not have it, even if they feign that they do.

The Erdogan government has expanded the Turkish economy, encouraged a peaceful settlement to the Cyprus dispute, promoted democratic institutions, curtailed military adventurism against the Kurds in northern Iraq, cooperated with the US on the war on terror, negotiated trade agreements with the EU, and pledged umpteen times to honor Turkey's unique secular traditions. What in that list of pro-Western accomplishments conflicts with Western values? A Muslim headdress worn by the First Lady?

This is a turf battle initiated by a military that fears civilian control, a typical feature of EU member states. The military has grown wealthy over the years. It wants wider latitude on war decisions, like the invasion of Cyprus or the counterinsurgency against the Kurds in the east. It wants to keep its powers of internal control. Their commitment to democracy is a joke. The longer the military suppresses popular will the greater the risk for social unrest, the breeding ground of extremism.

[shrike]

So if it so fine goverment why so many secular Turks are against it?

[The Decider]

Quote by: shrike So if it so fine goverment why so many secular Turks are against it?

Let's have the election and find out. Oh wait, the military threatened a coup if Gul contested an election and won. Damn, I guess we'll never know. That's "democracy" Turkish style!

[shrike]

Let's have the election and find out. Oh wait, the military threatened a coup if Gul contested an election and won. Damn, I guess we'll never know. That's "democracy" Turkish style

There will be an election and apparently the conservative party will get the Majority according to the poll I saw recently. But there is a lot of Turks that fear that Turkey will not longer be a secular republic.

[The Decider]

Quote by: shrike But there is a lot of Turks that fear that Turkey will not longer be a secular republic.

Please substantiate that "fear" with evidence that Turkey's secular constitution would be in peril if Gul had become president.

[shrike]

Please substantiate that "fear" with evidence that Turkey's secular constitution would be in peril if Gul had become president.

Are you saying that these large demonstrations happen without any reason?

[The Decider]

Quote by: shrike Are you saying that these large demonstrations happen without any reason?

I'm asking you to supply those reasons--especially the ones that prove a threat by Gul. Demonstrators are not "right" by virtue of demonstrating, nor are they necessarily a "majority opinion."