The Democratic Debate ( 27 April, 2007)

[StrongHeartsWin]

Did anyone see the televised democratic debate? I didn`t, but heard bits and pieces of it from the radio Ed Schults Show and read parts of the transcript on-line.

Dennis Kucinich was a call in guest during that broadcast of the Ed Schults Show and I liked what he said to Ed; he was very clear in ending the war and stating that the democrats had the power to do so without calling for "nonbinding" reductions, but "binding" reductions -- castigating the others as being too soft on the issue. I liked his strength on that issue. Ed also said he thought Mr. Kucinich distinguished himself from the others and stood out as possibly a serious contender for the nomination.

Any thoughts on the debate and what the others said, and how do you view Dennis Kucinich?

[Osborn F Enready]

I personally, like Kucinich more than any other democrat. Certainly not enough to vote for though. He is still part of the same problem..... republicans and democrats.

[Yarn]

The top tier canidates were fairly similar to one another.

Most of the canidates seemed to be for instituting universal health care, something which is long overdue; so we can hope that a Democratic winner in 08 will likely make progress on that front.

I think withdrawing from Iraq as quickly as possible at this point, would be dumb, because it would cause the country to collapse into chaos for certain. The surge has thus far decreased the amount of sectarian killing occuring in Iraq, but failed to decrease the overall amount of killing in Iraq. I think we should give it another year or two to see whether or not it can pacify the country.

A gradual withdrawal gives the Iraqi government a choice to place itself in a position where it can survive without US, or die.

A quick withdrawal is dumb, as the cost of failure in Iraq, is much higher then the cost of staying in it for another two years.

[Slevin57]

I liked Kucinich until recently. He put forth articles to impeach the Vice President. But, he left if there. He said he would try to get support for it and he would not pursue it further. I did not like that. If he wants to impeach the Vice President, he should be running around the hill with flyer's and buttons trying to get support.

This is probably the main reason I am not a Democrat. They don't' follow through. At least when Republicans do something their fricken fanatic about it.

[brien]

A quick withdrawal is dumb, as the cost of failure in Iraq, is much higher then the cost of staying in it for another two years

Can you explain your position here? Why is a "quick withdrawal dumb"? How do you define failure in Iraq? What is the cost for remaining another two years? How long do you think it will take to withdraw the US forces from Iraq?

[Yarn]

Why is a "quick withdrawal dumb"?

I explained why already.

How do you define failure in Iraq?

Genocide, oil well destruction, terrorist basing, civil war, refugee floods to neighboring countries, continuance of the current starvation death rate in the country of 100,000 a year.

What is the cost for remaining another two years?

My least conservative guess would be three thousand troop deaths, and four hundred billion dollars.

How long do you think it will take to withdraw the US forces from Iraq?

Quickest, I scarcely know, but in the order of maybe a month or two?

Less if were willing to destroy or leave behind some of our equipment there.

Plans currently favored in congress, would have the US start a gradual or phased (not sure which) withdrawal in about half a year.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Slevin57 This is probably the main reason I am not a Democrat. They don't' follow through. At least when Republicans do something their fricken fanatic about it.

But when has fanaticism ever resulted in final victory for the cause or the person or party championing the cause? There is something to be said about using the brake and accelerator when moving forward. If not, then I guess we should worship those fanatical Japanese zero pilots smashing into our warships devoted to their emperror.

I think there is more wisdom to "live to fight another day," and that is what Kucinich means when while putting forth a proposal to impeach Cheney, he is not going to tie his anchor to it and be drowned by it, like McCain is doing by tieing his presidential run to the coat tails of Bush and the Iraq war or recent surge there.

[Century 25]

Quote by: Slevin57 I liked Kucinich until recently. He put forth articles to impeach the Vice President. But, he left if there. He said he would try to get support for it and he would not pursue it further. I did not like that. If he wants to impeach the Vice President, he should be running around the hill with flyer's and buttons trying to get support. This is probably the main reason I am not a Democrat. They don't' follow through. At least when Republicans do something their fricken fanatic about it.

"If he wants to impeach the Vice President, he should be running around the hill with flyer's and buttons trying to get support."

..if you have two aces up your sleeve.. and the third one you have on the table.. how can Cheney be impeached..?? The rats have had over 6years to stack their decks.. besides re-writing history.. and having the "su-preme" court judges (majority) in their pocket..

"At least when Republicans do something their fricken fanatic about it."

..why not.. when you own the table.. piss on the rule book..

I agree with Osborn: "I personally, like Kucinich more than any other democrat. Certainly not enough to vote for though. He is still part of the same problem..... republicans and democrats." ... yes.. both sides of the same coin ~ :rolleyes:

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Yarn The top tier canidates were fairly similar to one another. Most of the canidates seemed to be for instituting universal health care, something which is long overdue; so we can hope that a Democratic winner in 08 will likely make progress on that front. I think withdrawing from Iraq as quickly as possible at this point, would be dumb, because it would cause the country to collapse into chaos for certain. The surge has thus far decreased the amount of sectarian killing occuring in Iraq, but failed to decrease the overall amount of killing in Iraq. I think we should give it another year or two to see whether or not it can pacify the country. A gradual withdrawal gives the Iraqi government a choice to place itself in a position where it can survive without US, or die. A quick withdrawal is dumb, as the cost of failure in Iraq, is much higher then the cost of staying in it for another two years.

Ok, ok, ok. So you want universal health care AND you want to keep the troops in Iraq. Do you have any idea how much all of that is going to COST? Taxes would go through the roof.

[Osborn F Enready]

After seeing parts of the debate, I like the role Gravel played more than any others.

I wouldn't vote for Gravel, but if this vote was being done IRV Gravel would be my 2nd or 3rd choice behind Ron Paul, as of now.

[brien]

Genocide, oil well destruction, terrorist basing, civil war, refugee floods to neighboring countries, continuance of the current starvation death rate in the country of 100,000 a year

Isn't this happening to some extent already in Iraq? How are the US troops preventing genocide, oil well destruction, terrorist basing, and refugees. Aren't the Iraqis already killing each other merely because they are of different sect? Haven't they blown up some of the oil wells? Aren't the Iraqis already fighting a civil war? And aren't there refugees leaving Iraq to flee the ongoing violence?

My least conservative guess would be three thousand troop deaths, and four hundred billion dollars.

This is unacceptable to the American public according to the last election. Why are we spending billions and sending over 100 soldiers to their untimely deaths? For what?

Quickest, I scarcely know, but in the order of maybe a month or two?

A month, hardly. Perhaps up to six months, minimum, if one considers taking the machinery and support systems.

Plans currently favored in congress, would have the US start a gradual or phased (not sure which) withdrawal in about half a year.

This is a sound plan.

[Yarn]

Isn't this happening to some extent already in Iraq?

Some of it yes, is already happening there to some extent; though to a lesser extent then it would be, if it were not for the presence of US troops in the country.

There is a possibility that the surge will work.

100,000s of lives are worth a heck of a lot, and they stand to be possibly saved by the surge.

How are the US troops preventing genocide, oil well destruction, terrorist basing, and refugees?

They are defending the oil derricks, rooting out/arresting/killing sectarian murderors and terrorists, and protecting civillians from them.

They are training an army to do those things.

They ensure the current government remains in power.

To summerize it; they prevent Iraq from falling into total chaos.

Aren't the Iraqis already killing each other merely because they are of different sect?

Some of them are.

Sectarian murders are down as a result of the surge however.

Haven't they blown up some of the oil wells?

Maybe. Not that i've heard of since the 2003 invasion was completed.

Aren't the Iraqis already fighting a civil war?

Depends on your definition of "civil war". The infighting among them could certainly be much worse then it is.

And aren't there refugees leaving Iraq to flee the ongoing violence?

Yes. More violence would equal=More refugees and =More poverty

Poverty, is presently killing more Iraqi's then violence directly.

This is unacceptable to the American public according to the last election. Why are we spending billions and sending over 100 soldiers to their untimely deaths? For what?

For the possibility of a stable Iraq, which is worth a lot to US interests.

Not to mention for the possibility of saving 100,000s of lives; though I don't know if your enough of a international humanitarian to care about that more then the cost to the US for staying, I am, and your debating me.

A month, hardly. Perhaps up to six months, minimum, if one considers taking the machinery and support systems.

I gave a guess. What makes your guess any more likely to be accurate then mine?

This is a sound plan.

As an option, if the surge fails.

[SpideySpirit]

As an outsider looking in at the demise of the USA with it's isolationist & aggressive international policies & it's flailing international credibility. IMHO, I see the only hope for reclaiming it's former greatness in someone like Dennis Kucinich. None of the other candidates (Rep or Dem) are courageous enough to do what is right. Wish I could vote for him......

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Century 25 I agree with Osborn: "I personally, like Kucinich more than any other democrat. Certainly not enough to vote for though. He is still part of the same problem..... republicans and democrats." ... yes.. both sides of the same coin ~ :rolleyes:

Make that three of us.


Mr. Kucinich has some rather good qualities, but like mentioned above, he just doesn't have quite enough of those qualities.