Capitalism 104

[Osborn F Enready]

I want to see a direct comparison of philosophies Gramps..... since that IS WHERE THE LOGIC IS.

You cite piecemeal answers to complex problems, and you cite them matter of factly without support.

Where is the LOGICAL CONCEPT of how it ties to man, in other words, THE PHILOSOPHY?

[grandpa]

You cite piecemeal answers to complex problems, and you cite them matter of factly without support.

You say it's a complex problem, but it really isn't.

The process of eliminating unnecessary authorities supports itself logically. If an authority title needn't exist for any good reason, it could be taken away without any significant consequences.

It might undermine the individual authority figure, but there's no reason to believe the individual who lost his/her power must be excluded, at least if we are to have an open society. It just comes down to whether we prefer elites calling the shots as others stupidly carry out their orders, or the greater intellectualism that almost instantly springs out of a participatory society.

And I'm not talking about some fictional scenario. Authorities are being undermined all the time, often fitting along with my world view.

Grandpa h.

[WindWip]

Hey Wind.. what logic am I missing..? This is a simple concept.. even R. Reagan used it.. "trickle-down economics" lol.. that's a good vision of a pyramid scheme/scam.

A pyramid scheme is defined by being non-sustainable.

Pyramid scam = not sustainable. Capitalism = sustainable. You're right, it is that simple. So unless you can prove that capitalism is not sustainable, your statement was completely wrong.


On your note about trickle down economics:
Trickle down economics are supply-side economics. It is the idea that economic growth is most effectively managed by using incentives to get people to produce goods and services. Those people produce those goods and services. There is no limiting factor which prevents this system from lasting forever and there is no reason that a capitalist society needs to use only trickle down economics.

This is a quick excerpt from the site I posted:

Capitalism, in order to be a healthy, viable system has to sustain constant growth. A young, growing population is counted as a plus. A capitalist economy that does not grow is in a "depression." And yet, the earth has finite resources, and a finite carrying capacity.

Even your site doesn't say that capitalism can't exist forever. It only says 'in order to be healthy it must grow'. This implies that an unhealthy capitalist society does not need to grow, which completely destroys your argument about a pyramid scam.

And what prevents capitalism from growing? Limited resources? Name one. If you're thinking of saying oil, think again. We have biodiesel, wind power, solar power and many other substitutes which are renewable.

Also:

Early entrants to capitalism and free trade (UK, the US, Western Europe, Japan) accumulated great wealth, but later entrants face huge problems: global warming, pollution, population growth and resource depletion, not problems when the US industrialized. The Economist projected that China will match the US as the largest economy in 2030, a straight line projection of current trends. What is unaccounted for by economists is the wealth-reducing damage to the earth that such unrestrained growth will already have caused

Cost to fix global warming: 3% of economic output. -source

Pollution is the worst in non-capitalist countries (India / China)

Now tell me, would you trade all the benefits we have gotten from that wealth for those problems you mentioned? It seems like the benefits far, far outweigh the problems.

You know.. the "law" of diminishing returns..? The earth is a finite quantity.. I guess it is too much to ask of a capitalist.. to think in multidimensional logic. The only "logic/reasoning" to a capitalist is: "The Bottom Line" - and that is one dimensional..

So tell me. How much 'Earth' have we used up? How many units of 'Earth' do we still have available and why can't we make more units of this 'Earth'.

You said that the Earth is a finite quantity. Care to explain that? What exactly are you referring to. The land? The air? Just saying 'the Earth is a finite quantity' is about as vague as you can get.

[WindWip]

"People don't need the threat of eviction dangling over them in order to live somewhere. Nor would a building simply vanish if someone missed a rent payment. Also, a 'tenant' would not be hurt one bit if rent was no longer demanded. However, the social parasite known as the landlord would lose credibility in the market."

A person doesn't need to be threatened to live somewhere. Why would they?

A tenant would not be hurt if they didn't have to pay rent, the landlord would. Why is the landlord a 'social parasite'. They provide a necessary service. Most renters can't buy a place, so they rely on a landlord to rent a place to them.

Are you talking about a communist society?

[Century 25]

Gramps, Century.....

Your logic IS faulted, and you have yet to post any.

You rant about the evils of capitalism,

yet you refuse to show an answer that logically addresses the problems YOU YOURSELVES site with an alternative.

"You rant about the evils of capitalism"

- no.. we merely let recorded history speak for itself. As I have stated.. capitalists belch volumes of smoke.. constantly.. to evade/cover the truth. If that is "ranting" I think America is circling the proverbial drain.

"yet you refuse to show an answer that logically addresses the problems YOU YOURSELVES site with an alternative"

That is a typical comeback from a debater that wishes to evade the nasty answers.. those actually addressing the points their adversaries made..

[Century 25]

Wind.. Capitalism, in order to be a healthy, viable system has to sustain constant growth. A young, growing population is counted as a plus. A capitalist economy that does not grow is in a "depression." And yet, the earth has finite resources, and a finite carrying capacity.

Capitalism is.. always has been.. a pyramid scheme. Why don't you show us a long lived and successful example of capitalism..??

[Osborn F Enready]

Century25 said:
Wind.. Capitalism, in order to be a healthy, viable system has to sustain constant growth.

Where on earth do you get that notion?

Century25 said:
A young, growing population is counted as a plus.

It is a plus to ANY economy, capitalist or otherwise.

Century25 said:
A capitalist economy that does not grow is in a "depression."

No, not at all.

A capitalist economy that doesn't grow is balanced in supply and demand.

Century25 said:
And yet, the earth has finite resources, and a finite carrying capacity.

Exactly, and it is the job of those here to use technology to find the most efficient means of sustaining life, which capitalism allows, instead of stagnation.

[Century 25]

Osborn said:

Exactly, and it is the job of those here to use technology to find the most efficient means of sustaining life, which capitalism allows, instead of stagnation.

We know how to sustain life.. and can do it well.. despite capitalism. However.. "life" is not meant to be lived sustaining capitalism. America is a prime example.. we now have well over 300 million people here.. and just how "well" above 300 million..?? we don't even know.. thanks to capitalism's need for "a young and growing supply" of.. (especially) cheap labor. That is how we find ourselves in 2007.. too many people.. too much pollution.. too much crime.. and still American businesses slither off to find more "business friendly" locales.

At what point will our so-called "economy" become a stable.. lasting proposition.. ?? 50 million population wasn't enough.. 100 million neither.. or 200 million.. nor even 300,000,000 + and growing fast.

Sorry Osborn (and Wind) - we are in stage IV of capitalism's ugly malignancy.. the prognosis..?? It is of course terminal..

[Osborn F Enready]

Well, thanks for the funny papers.... it was a good laugh.

[Century 25]

Well, thanks for the funny papers.... it was a good laugh.

Your sense of humor underwhelms me..

[WindWip]

Wind.. Capitalism, in order to be a healthy, viable system has to sustain constant growth. A young, growing population is counted as a plus. A capitalist economy that does not grow is in a "depression." And yet, the earth has finite resources, and a finite carrying capacity.

Capitalism is.. always has been.. a pyramid scheme. Why don't you show us a long lived and successful example of capitalism..??

I'm done. You didn't respond to a single statement I made or question I asked. I asked you what prevents capitalism from growing, you dodged the question. I asked for what you meant by Earth being a finite quantity and you ignored it. I asked you what lack of resources would prevent capitalism from growing and you failed to answer. You skimmed my post and reiterated what you already wrote. If you don't listen to what other people have to say then it isn't a debate, it's you talking to yourself.

[Osborn F Enready]

It is usually pointless to argue against anti-capitalists windwip, and I have over 10,000 posts on this site to prove the point.

Gramps and I have been going round and round since he came here, and much as Century25, he refuses to lay aside the "criticism" of capitalism to address the actual remedy to such problems, or propose their own logical solutions for what "they envision".

Thanks for keeping the faith though.....

“When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic.”
-Dresden James

“We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men.”
-George Orwell

“In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
-George Orwell