United We Stand & Divided We Fall

[malachiwillcox]

Divide & Conquer! - Are we Americans allowing this to happen?

So many issues to be addressed this day and age. Things are not as simple as they used to be. We need to slow down and take a look (as a whole) at who we are, and the direction we are heading.

Personally, I feel we are becoming weak minded and (for lack of a better word) "evil".

For starters... Here are two things which this Nation was not founded on and were most likely never even comprehensible.

1. Legalized killing of babies.

2. The gradual removal of GOD or any acknowledgment of HIM from the facets of our Nation.

I just wish this "one nation under God" would come together - screw it's head on straight and be a better role model for the rest of the world.

I'm sure I'm just wasting my breath but sometimes it just kills me to think about our nations future. I guess.. I should just shut up, sit down and watch some "REALITY TV".

[shawmutt]

Let's start with--

Legalized killing of babies.

Quote by: NCBI.org Abortion was frequently practiced in North America during the period from 1600 to 1900. Many tribal societies knew how to induce abortions. They used a variety of methods including the use of black root and cedar root as abortifacient agents. During the colonial period, the legality of abortion varied from colony to colony and reflected the attitude of the European country which controlled the specific colony. In the British colonies abortions were legal if they were performed prior to quickening. In the French colonies abortions were frequently performed despite the fact that they were considered to be illegal. In the Spanish and Portuguese colonies abortion was illegal. From 1776 until the mid-1800s abortion was viewed as socially unacceptable; however, abortions were not illegal in most states. (source)

As for--

The gradual removal of GOD or any acknowledgment of HIM from the facets of our Nation.

Quote by: The Constitution Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

And finally--

"one nation under God"

Quote by: President Eisenhower "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." President Eisenhower (1954) after signing into law a bill to have "under God" added to the original pledge."

[bishop]

Quote by: malachiwillcox For starters... Here are two things which this Nation was not founded on and were most likely never even comprehensible. 1. Legalized killing of babies. 2. The gradual removal of GOD or any acknowledgment of HIM from the facets of our Nation. I just wish this "one nation under God" would come together - screw it's head on straight and be a better role model for the rest of the world.

speaking of the founding of the country, here's the original pledge of allegiance:

"i pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands- one nation indivisible-with liberty and justice for all."

no mention of god there at all..

james madison, one of the constitution's co-authors, was a strong proponent of secularism. thomas jefferson also supported a secular state..

Separation of church and state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

James Madison, the principal drafter of the United States Bill of Rights, who often wrote of "total separation of the church from the state" (1819 letter to Robert Walsh). "Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States," Madison wrote, and he declared, "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States" (1811 letter to Baptist Churches). This attitude is further reflected in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, originally authored by Thomas Jefferson, but championed by Madison, and guaranteeing that no one may be compelled to finance any religion or denomination. ... no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

of course, today's politicians act as if these words were never uttered - and they are fortunate that most americans are unaware of their own country's history.


but i digress... by uniting together, does that mean that we need to agree to the worldview held by christian fundamentalists - or, is there another worldview that americans can agree to?

[Century 25]

The "pledge" originated in 1892.. here is how:

The Pledge of Allegiance was written for the popular children's magazine Youth's Companion by socialist author and Baptist minister Francis Bellamy on September 7, 1892. The owners of Youth's Companion were selling flags to schools, and approached Bellamy to write the Pledge for their advertising campaign. It was marketed as a way to celebrate the 400th anniversary of Columbus arriving in the Americas and was first published on the following day.

Bellamy's original Pledge read as follows: I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, and was seen by some as a call for national unity and wholeness after the divisive Civil War. The pledge was supposed to be quick and to the point. Bellamy designed it to be stated in 15 seconds. He had initially also considered using the words equality and fraternity but decided they were too controversial since many people still opposed equal rights for women and blacks. Bellamy said that the purpose of the pledge was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue.

After a proclamation by President Benjamin Harrison, the Pledge was first used in public schools on October 12, 1892 during Columbus Day observances. The form adopted inserted the word "to" before "the Republic."

That from Wkipedia..

I remember.. gasp!!.. reciting the "old" pledge.. before Ike's handlers inserted the religious bit.. poor old Ike.. he discovered late in his second term.. that he (the government).. as he imagined it to be.. was not running the country.. but as he told Kennedy.. it was the MIC.. Military/Industry/CIA complex.. and JFK couldn't (evidently) grasp the ends to which the real power brokers would go to.. to perpetuate the war/profit concept.. forever..

Btw.. as we can see.. "equal rights" for women & blacks is still a dream.. god bless America.. yeah.. right..

[malachiwillcox]

I've read 3 responses to my post of "United We Stand & Divided We Fall". Wow! ... You guys can rationalize your stupidity - any which way, but please don't take things out of context (on purpose).

I would love to debate this topic... However, if you "Americans" continue to talk in CIRCLES...well, I don't have time for that.

[Hmm]

Quote by: malachiwillcox I've read 3 responses to my post of "United We Stand & Divided We Fall". Wow! ... You guys can rationalize your stupidity - any which way, but please don't take things out of context (on purpose). I would love to debate this topic... However, if you "Americans" continue to talk in CIRCLES...well, I don't have time for that.

I would not call their arguments an attempt to rationalize their "stupidity." Their points are more logically sound than yours, and I assume that you can see that as you refuse to respond to their posts.

[The Decider]

Quote by: malachiwillcox I've read 3 responses to my post of "United We Stand & Divided We Fall". Wow! ... You guys can rationalize your stupidity - any which way, but please don't take things out of context (on purpose). I would love to debate this topic... However, if you "Americans" continue to talk in CIRCLES...well, I don't have time for that.

The responses to your thread directly addressed elements of your first post. Your response? "Stupid." Then you question their patriotism by placing scare quotes around "Americans."

The only part of your OP that seems well-argued is this quote:

"I'm sure I'm just wasting my breath."

[bishop]

Quote by: malachiwillcox I've read 3 responses to my post of "United We Stand & Divided We Fall". Wow! ... You guys can rationalize your stupidity - any which way, but please don't take things out of context (on purpose). I would love to debate this topic... However, if you "Americans" continue to talk in CIRCLES...well, I don't have time for that.

aside from what the other members have said, i'd like to remind you that when you joined, you agreed to abide by the forum's rules. insulting members is against the rules and doesn't contribute to intelligent debate. do not repeat this behavior.

[Praxius]

Quote by: malachiwillcox Divide & Conquer! - Are we Americans allowing this to happen? So many issues to be addressed this day and age. Things are not as simple as they used to be. We need to slow down and take a look (as a whole) at who we are, and the direction we are heading. Personally, I feel we are becoming weak minded and (for lack of a better word) "evil". For starters... Here are two things which this Nation was not founded on and were most likely never even comprehensible. 1. Legalized killing of babies.

They are technically not babies when "Killed" so that's not evil except in your own opinion.

2. The gradual removal of GOD or any acknowledgment of HIM from the facets of our Nation.

You do realize that the US was founded by Illuminati and Stone Masons, not Christians? How about that other term of keeping Church and State seperate? Now you're suggesting they become one? I can already see the witch burning days coming back.

I just wish this "one nation under God" would come together - screw it's head on straight and be a better role model for the rest of the world.

And what do you propose be done? Force everyone in your country to follow Christianity? Who says they're wrong and you're right? Your God? Funny thing is, their Gods say your God is wrong.... so which God is right?

[brien]

For starters... Here are two things which this Nation was not founded on and were most likely never even comprehensible. 1. Legalized killing of babies. 2. The gradual removal of GOD or any acknowledgment of HIM from the facets of our Nation

Yes the nation was not founded on legalized killing of babies and God was never mentioned in the Constitution. So what's your point?

[malachiwillcox]

The "United We Stand & Divided We Fall" Post/Topic is something that I usually DROP in a Debate forum where I am new - To get a feel of the Forum. It either speaks to the Right or to the Left. My purpose was served.

I'm not here to cause trouble or be vindictive.

My point is this: We have fallen from Grace - or are heading in that direction. The shear DEPRAVITY of our culture and actions is pathetic.

Now... I'm impressed with many of you and how you CAN DEBATE - although, I disagree about Abortion and many other topics which Liberals typically choose to support and justify.

I can debate you. I just don't have time to argue in circles. I've known many great thinkers with intelligence quotients higher than my own - that are dead wrong. Some of my best friends are these men and we debate all the time (or used to) - it's educational, time consuming, and rarely persuasive on either side - in the end.

I look forward to discussing / debating these topics and others - when I get more time. Let's try to use common sense though - it saves time. I don't want to research every single reply - because of so many things to verify and debate accordingly.

Thanks for putting up with me and I hope I didn't offend anyone. However, if you are someone who justifies "abortion", then you are too far gone. I don't have time to argue with anyone who is this ignorant.

I'll be back...unless I get the BOOT from your sweet moderator (who doesn't see eye to eye with me).

[bishop]

there will be no boot, but it would've been nice if you didn't just "drop" this thread in here for ulterior motives.. all you need to do is peruse various threads to get an idea of how people think - and opinions vary widely across the issues.

since you're testing our views, here's a test for your views.

when you talk about how people have fallen from grace and are depraved, i wonder if you mean people in general - or solely those who aren't of the christian fundamentalist mindset.. there are many christian fundamentalists who are completely amoral and disguisting human beings (imo) - and there are many non-christians who are completely moral and decent human beings.

[gw120]

1. Legalized killing of babies. 2. The gradual removal of GOD or any acknowledgment of HIM from the facets of our Nation.

1. Everything that shawmutt said, plus fetus's aren't babies, they're fetus's, that's why they're not refered to by the scientific community, which I assume you're not a part of and are probably more intelligent and better educated than you, don't refer to them as such.

2. Why should we acknowledge god? Not everyone believes in God, a fairly large part of the country doesn't, 12% are atheist/agnostic and 11% non-christian according to this:How Many Atheists in America?, so why should we force the 23% to say something they don't believe. 23% is too much in my opinion. What makes you're god more important than Vishnu, or the lack of god.

Also a little something called "separation of church and state" which the country was, in fact, based upon.

[malachiwillcox]

Hey Bishop... I appreciate the mercy. Not that I deserve any. I decided to "drop" my post - even though I had already perused the premises, because I wasn't satisfied. I'm sorry. I 'll try to be less self-centered in the future.

OK... My response to your inquiry about depravity and falling from grace... Well, I'm speaking about humans "as a whole" or the "general populous". My own Mother seems to be a little more tolerant of evil nowadays. I myself, have fallen from grace many times. However, I realize this. I'm aware of the wrongs which need to made right and the changes I need to make. My concern is for mankind (in general), because we seem to be acting more and more like depraved animals and immature children that are not capable of making good decisions. My goal isn't to "pound the pulpit" or "Bible beat" people - just to make myself feel better etc. My concern is legitimate and all you have to do is step outside or turn on the T.V. to see it ... I guess, my purpose is to promote awareness and common sense.

You can be incredibly smart (knowledgeable) and be ignorant. So when I debate someone who knows more facts/trivia/info on various topics but supports a woman's right to abort a human child "fetus", I just shake my head in disbelief. For instance... I support President Bush 100%. I don't think He is stupid - like so many left-fielders say. I believe our President is very wise and can see the big picture. I'm not a "follower" by nature. So, I'm not supporting the President - just because he is a Conservative, Christian, Republican. I support Him because He is wise and has more common sense than most.

I chose John 1:5 - as my sig line, for this very reason. Replace "light" with "Conservatives" and "Darkness' with "Liberals". That pretty much sums it up in my opinion.

BTW - I checked out your website - it's nice. Pretty cool stuff. I'm a fan of that type of music too.

[shawmutt]

For instance... I support President Bush 100%. I don't think He is stupid - like so many left-fielders say. I believe our President is very wise and can see the big picture. I'm not a "follower" by nature. So, I'm not supporting the President - just because he is a Conservative, Christian, Republican. I support Him because He is wise and has more common sense than most. I chose John 1:5 - as my sig line, for this very reason. Replace "light" with "Conservatives" and "Darkness' with "Liberals". That pretty much sums it up in my opinion.

Wow, you just seem to be a typing contradiction. You support a man who claims to be conservative and yet is as fiscally irresponsible and more "big government" than the worst liberal a right-winger can conjure up. Then, you take a quote concerning a man who by all accounts is a leftist liberal, and in something that would be called heresy in earlier times, twist it to make your own Jesus.

My concern is legitimate and all you have to do is step outside or turn on the T.V. to see it ... I guess, my purpose is to promote awareness and common sense.

As far as awareness, how does working once a week in a soup kitchen and working once a week with an abortion clinic (I'm a bouncer of sorts) strike ya? Common sense? I have yet to see any.

As far as your gloom and doom "falling from grace" topic, Here's some more reading for you from a Catholic monk called "The Moral Theology of the Devil". I suggest you take your time with it.

[Autolykos]

AFAIK, all humans, all the time, are fallen from grace. Only God has grace. There is never any hope, ever, of mere mortals acquiring grace.

By the way, I'm an atheist.

- Rob

[Autolykos]

On another note, I wonder whether there is any reason for the geographic area known as the United States to remain so -- that is, united. I'm personally not concerned about "one nation", under God or not. Certainly I don't care about being a "role model" for the rest of the world -- whatever that's supposed to mean.

Your thoughts?

- Rob

[Mr.Vicchio]

Very good points, the glue that held America strong for 200 years is being undone by people who want "perfection" and to get there they will stop at nothing... not even to consider the effect of their actions. Sometimes I think they know exactly what it is they are doing, but other times... I think it's just
people doing what they think is "cool"

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: malachiwillcox Now... I'm impressed with many of you and how you CAN DEBATE - although, I disagree about Abortion and many other topics which Liberals typically choose to support and justify. Thanks for putting up with me and I hope I didn't offend anyone. However, if you are someone who justifies "abortion", then you are too far gone. I don't have time to argue with anyone who is this ignorant.

Welcome to the site. The current abortion centered threads would be here:

Court Backs Ban on Abortion Procedure

here:
The apartment

and here:
Does life begin at conception? I think it does.


I'm probably one of the more vocal liberal pro-choice members here, so I look forward to debating with you, should you care to discuss this issue. If not, now you know the threads to avoid -- come join in any of the other discussions you like.

[malachiwillcox]

Quote by: shawmutt Wow, you just seem to be a typing contradiction. You support a man who claims to be conservative and yet is as fiscally irresponsible and more "big government" than the worst liberal a right-winger can conjure up. Then, you take a quote concerning a man who by all accounts is a That quote is from the Bible - the New Testament. So, I don't know what you are talking about. leftist liberal, and in something that would be called heresy in earlier times, twist it to make your own Jesus. What? That's a whole lot of nothing. You can do better than that, can't you..? As far as awareness, how does working once a week in a soup kitchen and working once a week with an abortion clinic (I'm a bouncer of sorts) strike ya? Common sense? I have yet to see any. Like I said - The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness DID NOT COMPREHEND IT. As far as your gloom and doom "falling from grace" topic, Here's some more reading for you from a Catholic monk called "The Moral Theology of the Devil". I suggest you take your time with it.

You are way out there buddy. Thomas Merton (whoever) is a nutjob. Anybody in their right mind who read your "moral theology of the devil" link - would know better. I don't care if the guy is a MONK or not - That stuff he wrote has NO BASIS. Any LOON can write whatever they want - and just because they have some special STATUS doesn't make it RIGHT.

Wow...

I'm getting a headache now. Too much retardation in here.

:rolleyes: