United We Stand & Divided We Fall

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio America is an ideal, that when it was created in 1776 bred a form of thinking not ever seen in history, that we care about "individual" rights and have for so long is amazing when you stop to think about it.

Do we really care about individual rights? I know we are supposed to -- but do we? And does the idea of all of us being united really connect to this ideal?

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Honor is honor. It's doing the right thing even if no one is looking, and willing to stand up in the face of adversity to achieve a goal. Duty, duty to country, I.E. voting paying taxes, duty to family by being there for them and working through the tough times, duty to God (if you are so inclined) Moral Right This is the more contentious one because "Moral" is such a bastardized word these days, but Moral I mean being of character and disposition... That make sense? Liberty, the freedom to live ones life as an individual within certain confines of good taste and law. (I.E. if it's not hurting anyone it's probably okay, there are of course exceptions) To pursue ones dreams however silly they maybe to others.

I don't think these things are gone from our country, nor fading. There have always been honorable people and dishonorable people, and I still see both. I do my duty as I see fit, and though I do agree that many people do not do their duty as I see fit, I am not in a position to tell everyone what his or her duty is. It is something we each have to decide, for ourselves.

I do think that more people should be aware of what this country gives them, what this society gives them, and what they owe to this country and this society. I also think that people should be aware of what they do not owe, and what they should not give -- and blind allegiance is #1 on that second list.

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio It's utopianism because the world is not ready for "a one government" look at how much trouble we have with the UN and corruption, or the problem the EU is having meshing. Do you really think Man is ready to move beyond the Nation State format?

I would agree that people are not ready for a One World government -- but is our current nation state the next best thing? Myself, I think not.

[Praxius]

Quote by: malachiwillcox Thanks for putting up with me and I hope I didn't offend anyone. However, if you are someone who justifies "abortion", then you are too far gone. I don't have time to argue with anyone who is this ignorant.

Saying you don't have time to debate a subject that has not been resolved in the global community is ignorant. You have an opinion on the matter, and are trying to express that you are right and anybody else is wrong & ignorant..... that's a great way to start things off.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Coffee Saint, what makes you think we DON'T believe in individual rights?

Sure there are restrictions on things some people scream about, but really, look around the world... Few places are as free politically, economically and personally then America.

Granted some places you do things you can't here, but we con do things HERE you can't there.


Owning Guns for example, individual right.
Right to own property (though that has come under fire in the Kelo case at least many states are shoring that up)
I could go on, but it's just one example.

Are we perfect? No, but a perfect society has yet to exist. Personally I think people are so... focused on real and imagined ills that they forget the good and thus demean the country.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Coffee Saint, what makes you think we DON'T believe in individual rights?

The ideology behind this thread, basically. The idea that anyone who doesn't support the President is a traitor, that anyone who speaks out against the war, or against the American ideals, is a traitor. The idea that anyone who opposes the government's policies on abortion, or immigration, or education or drug prohibition or any of a hundred other things is unAmerican, and should be sanctioned because of it.

All attitudes I have seen online, and in my life.

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Sure there are restrictions on things some people scream about, but really, look around the world... Few places are as free politically, economically and personally then America. Granted some places you do things you can't here, but we con do things HERE you can't there.

I don't see how that doesn't even out. If we have some rights but not others, and they have other rights but not these, how can we be more free? Or is there a specific set of criteria to be considered REALLY free?

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Owning Guns for example, individual right. Right to own property (though that has come under fire in the Kelo case at least many states are shoring that up) I could go on, but it's just one example.

Yeah, and it's one I disagree with. I actually feel less free in a country that has that right. That's just my opinion, of course -- but it does tend to make me disagree with your position that America is freer than other nations.

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Are we perfect? No, but a perfect society has yet to exist. Personally I think people are so... focused on real and imagined ills that they forget the good and thus demean the country.

I don't think we're perfect, nor do I think any nation is. But is this the best we can do?

[Milton Bradley]

If the onlt way we can stand united is under your perverted "God over law" mentality, than I say let it divide, and fall.

[malachiwillcox]

Thanks Mr. Vicchio - for being so patient to discuss these matters with these fine young lads.

This is actually a decent discussion. Too bad - some of you can't grasp the big picture. "United We Stand & Divided We Fall" is a very simple, yet VITAL concept. All you have to do, is LOOK at HISTORY.

Which Country is the number 1# Super Power? Which Country do all the immigrants from other countries go to? Which country has made the greatest OVERALL PROGRESS in the last 100 Years?

Now ask yourself this - How did the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA accomplish this? I'm not going to draw you a picture and spell it out. If I did, you would just argue with me and come up with some (pie in the sky) theory to object.

All I ask of you is this: Be honest with yourself. If you really desire to know the TRUTH - then seek it out.

Our SUCCESSFUL COUNTRY the "USA" - was founded on certain moral principals and expectations. WE WERE UNITED and this was the ERA in which we achieved our goals and set new ones. There is a good chunk of the U.S. that continues to be of one accord - but that chunk is getting smaller and smaller. Every great civilization before us has FALLEN into OBLIVION - because of wickedness, godlessness, and or division within.

I haven't explained or thoroughly thought everything I've said out - because it's late/early/whatever, and I'm beat. However, I am satisfied that my summarization/gist is adequate to get the "thinking" ball rolling.

Do yourself a favor. Do some solid and unbiased research.

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE...

[Hmm]

Quote by: malachiwillcox Every great civilization before us has FALLEN into OBLIVION - because of wickedness, godlessness, and or division within.

Would you mind providing an example of a great civilization falling due to lack of belief in a god?

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio America is an ideal, that when it was created in 1776 bred a form of thinking not ever seen in history, that we care about "individual" rights and have for so long is amazing when you stop to think about it.

America is an ideal? I don't think so. A piece of land cannot be an ideal. Nor can any institutions people choose to establish upon that land. An ideal is an ideal.

The Revolutionaries simply wished to throw off the yoke of British oppression, as they perceived it. It was rather coincidental, I think, that most of them also supported a very limited view of government. But all of the millennial "shining city on a hill" claptrap began after the Revolution.

The concept of individual rights was not born in 1776. It was born long before. England (among others) also had individual rights. In fact, the original Bill of Rights was written in England.

Honor is honor. It's doing the right thing even if no one is looking, and willing to stand up in the face of adversity to achieve a goal.

That begs the question -- what is "the right thing"?

I would say that honor is integrity. It is about keeping your word and owing up to that which you believe is wrong.

Duty, duty to country, I.E. voting paying taxes, duty to family by being there for them and working through the tough times, duty to God (if you are so inclined)

I feel no duty to "my country". Any such duty is quite separate from any duty that I feel to my family.

Moral Right This is the more contentious one because "Moral" is such a bastardized word these days, but Moral I mean being of character and disposition... That make sense?

Unfortunately, it does not -- at least, not to me. "Moral Right" invoked as a feature of the United States says to me that a particular morality, or moral theory, is concerned. So, which one are you talking about?

Liberty, the freedom to live ones life as an individual within certain confines of good taste and law. (I.E. if it's not hurting anyone it's probably okay, there are of course exceptions) To pursue ones dreams however silly they maybe to others.

"Within certain confines of good taste and law" are not part of my own definition for "liberty". There are also two ways in which one can speak of "liberty": in a political sense or in a metaphysical sense (i.e., free will). I think we are all born with metaphysical liberty, but not all of us are born with political liberty. Indeed, the highest form of political liberty would be, by definition, where a state does not even exist.

It's utopianism because the world is not ready for "a one government" look at how much trouble we have with the UN and corruption, or the problem the EU is having meshing. Do you really think Man is ready to move beyond the Nation State format?

Here you present a false dichotomy: a world of nation-states vs. a global government. You have not explained how the nation-state is the only valid political entity, or whether any political entity is valid at all.

Finally, let me explain to you that the United States is not a nation-state, nor was it conceived as one. A nation-state depends upon a pre-existing nation. The United States has no such thing -- its people are from a very diverse array of nationalities. So if the United States is not a nation-state in the first place, why must it remain united?

- Rob

[Autolykos]

Quote by: malachiwillcox Thanks Mr. Vicchio - for being so patient to discuss these matters with these fine young lads. This is actually a decent discussion. Too bad - some of you can't grasp the big picture. "United We Stand & Divided We Fall" is a very simple, yet VITAL concept. All you have to do, is LOOK at HISTORY.

I don't think it's vital. What say you?

Which Country is the number 1# Super Power? Which Country do all the immigrants from other countries go to? Which country has made the greatest OVERALL PROGRESS in the last 100 Years?

Er, so what? I don't care about any "super power" status. I don't care about how many immigrants come here as opposed to other countries. Until you explain what you mean by "overall progress", I don't know whether I agree or disagree.

Now ask yourself this - How did the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA accomplish this? I'm not going to draw you a picture and spell it out. If I did, you would just argue with me and come up with some (pie in the sky) theory to object.

Nice setup -- any theory that competes with yours must, by definition, be a pie in the sky. :rolleyes:

All I ask of you is this: Be honest with yourself. If you really desire to know the TRUTH - then seek it out. Our SUCCESSFUL COUNTRY the "USA" - was founded on certain moral principals [sic] and expectations. WE WERE UNITED and this was the ERA in which we achieved our goals and set new ones. There is a good chunk of the U.S. that continues to be of one accord - but that chunk is getting smaller and smaller. Every great civilization before us has FALLEN into OBLIVION - because of wickedness, godlessness, and or division within.

"We achieved our goals and set new ones"? What on Earth are you talking about?

Likewise, please explain just which moral principles and expectations you believe the United States was founded upon.

Who is to say that the United States, or any other self-contained political entity, constitutes one separate and unique civilization?

I haven't explained or thoroughly thought everything I've said out - because it's late/early/whatever, and I'm beat. However, I am satisfied that my summarization/gist is adequate to get the "thinking" ball rolling. Do yourself a favor. Do some solid and unbiased research. THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE...

Somehow, I doubt that the Bible is unbiased.

- Rob

[bishop]

Quote by: malachiwillcox Our SUCCESSFUL COUNTRY the "USA" - was founded on certain moral principals and expectations. WE WERE UNITED and this was the ERA in which we achieved our goals and set new ones. There is a good chunk of the U.S. that continues to be of one accord - but that chunk is getting smaller and smaller. Every great civilization before us has FALLEN into OBLIVION - because of wickedness, godlessness, and or division within.

sounds pretty fire and brimstone to me.. oblivion, wickedness, etc.. all of this hocus pocus.

regarding these "certain moral principals", which ones would those be, exactly? the ones where human beings were legally and morally permitted to own other human beings as slaves? slavery's a pretty huge example for you to attempt to excuse away - the point is that the founders were not the moral saints that you seem to think they were.

i've also cited some posts from the writers of the constitution showing their support for secularism.. you should respond to that as well as this question:

Quote by: bishop by uniting together, does that mean that we need to agree to the worldview held by christian fundamentalists - or, is there another worldview that americans can agree to?

i say this as someone who does believe in a higher power and believes that christ's lessons are what people should strive to follow - how about uniting against christian fundamentalists (e.g. dominionists) who want to use the government to impose christian-inspired rules upon us?

if you recall, we were fairly united after 9/11... our dear leader sure did manage to royally screw that up, regardless of how people apologize for his horrible decisions/record.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: malachiwillcox Divide & Conquer! - Are we Americans allowing this to happen? So many issues to be addressed this day and age. Things are not as simple as they used to be. We need to slow down and take a look (as a whole) at who we are, and the direction we are heading. Personally, I feel we are becoming weak minded and (for lack of a better word) "evil". For starters... Here are two things which this Nation was not founded on and were most likely never even comprehensible. 1. Legalized killing of babies. 2. The gradual removal of GOD or any acknowledgment of HIM from the facets of our Nation. I just wish this "one nation under God" would come together - screw it's head on straight and be a better role model for the rest of the world. I'm sure I'm just wasting my breath but sometimes it just kills me to think about our nations future. I guess.. I should just shut up, sit down and watch some "REALITY TV".

I just saw Judgement At Nuremburg, never had seen it before, and I was stunned to hear words in an old movie (1961) that are so appropriate to this country's current situation.

"There are those in our own country too who today speak of the "protection of country" -- of "survival." A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient -- to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is "survival as what?" A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult!

Before the people of the world let it now be noted that here, in our decision, this is what we stand for: justice, truth, and the value of a single human being." Spencer Tracy (Judge Dan Haywood) delivers this poignant summation of the Nuremburg Trials of four Nazi Judges."

We've become exactly what we put on trial after WW2. The Patriot Act, the MCA, a president ruling by executive order and "signing statements" that exempts him from obeying the law. We've resorted to lowering ourselves to using torture, rendition, and imprisonment without respecting the rights we are supposedly fighting to protect.

It's not about killing babies, or God, it's simply about what we have let this country become. One can only hope that we will eventually return to the values that we once stood for, and that it will be bush and his cronies that are sitting in the dock.

[Chris]

Quote by: malachiwillcox No, It's - John 1:5 ....NOT.... 1 John 1:5. In the New Testament Bible, there is the Book of John, then there is 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John. You must have thought I was referring to 1st John 1:5 - that is toward the end of the Bible - kinda next to Revelation. The book of John is at the Beginning of the New - with Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Copy that? Over and out - little buddy.

Oh I see now. It would have been obvious had 1 John 1:5 not been so similar (talking about darkness etc)

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

[Chris]

Quote by: malachiwillcox Which Country do all the immigrants from other countries go to?

All immigrants? immigrants go all sorts of places, They are just called something different. Like 'asylum seekers'. in the UK and Australia. Most of western Europe has immigrants pouring in by the boatload.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: malachiwillcox Divide & Conquer! - Are we Americans allowing this to happen? So many issues to be addressed this day and age. Things are not as simple as they used to be. We need to slow down and take a look (as a whole) at who we are, and the direction we are heading. Personally, I feel we are becoming weak minded and (for lack of a better word) "evil". For starters... Here are two things which this Nation was not founded on and were most likely never even comprehensible. 1. Legalized killing of babies. 2. The gradual removal of GOD or any acknowledgment of HIM from the facets of our Nation. I just wish this "one nation under God" would come together - screw it's head on straight and be a better role model for the rest of the world. I'm sure I'm just wasting my breath but sometimes it just kills me to think about our nations future. I guess.. I should just shut up, sit down and watch some "REALITY TV".

If we are devided and the marjority half is standing then we are still okay and it is better then keeping a corupted leg that might infest the rest of the body.

We are not united under God. We are united by the Consitution and the Bill of Rights.

Now religion is not wasting their breath by advocating a sense of morality and compassion or brothery love or even for advocating a belief in something devine. But the church is not our government and God is not our president and never was. Face reality.

Again, we are not united under the Bible we are united under the Consitution and our Bill of Rights. No matter what song we sing about "one nation under God" that was later introduced by Christians.
That song has nothing to do with anything governmental. That song is a "feeling" and not a governmental document of national standards or policy.

And in fact you are not wasting your breath because a lot of right wing religious people voted for Republcans that support your beliefs. Bomberman Bush got voted into office because of his religious perspectives about abortion and so forth. So do not pretend to be the underdog because that would just be another lie.

However it would be nice if we had a perfect world and nothing offended us. So instead of watching Reality TV I suggest you watch some old flick like "Leave it to Beaver" or "Father Knows Best".

However I have a new policy about trying to be more respectful to posters and so allow me to redirect your focus. Imagine what heaven will be like when you get there after going through hell on earth, I can promise you that heaven will be prefect and problem free, you are going to love it and that is the one that can last for eternity, not this temporary experience. Concentrate on that image of heaven and that will bless you with a sense of peace and well being here and now. So if someone is rude do not say "you dirty rat" but instead say "how may I help you".
Overcome the judgemental attitudes and allow compassion to dominate your feelings and thoughts, and actions.

[malachiwillcox]

Quote by: bishop sounds pretty fire and brimstone to me.. oblivion, wickedness, etc.. all of this hocus pocus. regarding these "certain moral principals", which ones would those be, exactly? the ones where human beings were legally and morally permitted to own other human beings as slaves? slavery's a pretty huge example for you to attempt to excuse away - the point is that the founders were not the moral saints that you seem to think they were. i've also cited some posts from the writers of the constitution showing their support for secularism.. you should respond to that as well as this question: i say this as someone who does believe in a higher power and believes that christ's lessons are what people should strive to follow - how about uniting against christian fundamentalists (e.g. dominionists) who want to use the government to impose christian-inspired rules upon us? I do not support the dominionist's concept. I don't believe Conservative Christians or anyone should impose their beliefs on anyone else - HOWEVER, there has to be rules and law (to sustain order and prosperity. "Dominionism" is an off the wall title that is outdated and only came back to describe certain individuals for the 2004 elections. I believe people should have the freedom to worship whomever they want -unless it involves sacrificing another human being, etc. This is such a basic concept and understanding - by any sane individual. I shouldn't have to explain this. Bishop, you are way to smart to be playing that card. if you recall, we were fairly united after 9/11... our dear leader sure did manage to royally screw that up, regardless of how people apologize for his horrible decisions/record.

I do not support the dominionist's concept. I don't believe Conservative Christians or anyone should impose their beliefs on anyone else - HOWEVER, there has to be rules and law (to sustain order and prosperity. "Dominionism" is an off the wall title that is outdated and only came back to describe certain individuals for the 2004 elections. I believe people should have the freedom to worship whomever they want -unless it involves sacrificing another human being, etc. This is such a basic concept and understanding - by any sane individual. I shouldn't have to explain this. Bishop, you are way to smart to be playing that card.

[xyzer]

I would posit that what malachiwillcox is saying rings with an element of truth! Our founding fathers were believers in a God but they were wise enough to prohibit a state religion while allowing freedom of worship. They did ,in the main reflect adherence to the Christian versin of God and his morality.

Citing the pledge of allegiance as some sort of indicator is besides the point. More importantly our courts and offical swearings under oath have traditionally been using the wording 'so help me God"! God being the so called supreme being/authority no matter what the persons personal belief is. The word is symbolic and suggests truth.

Of late we are seeing secularists attempt to abolish any reference to a supreme authority because they feel their belief(or is it non belief) system is the only one. Somehow no one else should be allowed to believe otherwise and moral relativitey is the mode? There can be no supreme moral authority, it's a personal thing? They in fact are attempting to impose their own belief system on the rest of the populace..and the results aren't exactly pleasant.

Also, giving an example that primitives living in the Americas were using abortion potions is beside the point. The question revolved around the US nations practices not those who inhabited the area before it became a nation?

The statement suggesting the importance of unity is valid. Of late we have little national unity. We are becooming a nation of critics without any solutions. Our recently elected Democrat Congress is a prime example. Much criticism, name calling and condemnation, and retribution... and no constructive action? A definitve lack of patrotism(pride in country) and a constant blame game!

[Hmm]

Quote by: malachiwillcox I do not support the dominionist's concept. I don't believe Conservative Christians or anyone should impose their beliefs on anyone else - HOWEVER, there has to be rules and law (to sustain order and prosperity. "Dominionism" is an off the wall title that is outdated and only came back to describe certain individuals for the 2004 elections. I believe people should have the freedom to worship whomever they want -unless it involves sacrificing another human being, etc. This is such a basic concept and understanding - by any sane individual. I shouldn't have to explain this. Bishop, you are way to smart to be playing that card.

"I believe people should have the freedom to worship whomever they want -unless it involves sacrificing another human being, etc." What if the one who is being sacrificed has consented to do so?

Also, I'll repeat myself: Could you provide an example of a nation that fell due to a lack of belief in gods?

[Athena]

Quote by: malachiwillcox Divide & Conquer! - Are we Americans allowing this to happen? So many issues to be addressed this day and age. Things are not as simple as they used to be. We need to slow down and take a look (as a whole) at who we are, and the direction we are heading. Personally, I feel we are becoming weak minded and (for lack of a better word) "evil". For starters... Here are two things which this Nation was not founded on and were most likely never even comprehensible. 1. Legalized killing of babies. 2. The gradual removal of GOD or any acknowledgment of HIM from the facets of our Nation. I just wish this "one nation under God" would come together - screw it's head on straight and be a better role model for the rest of the world. I'm sure I'm just wasting my breath but sometimes it just kills me to think about our nations future. I guess.. I should just shut up, sit down and watch some "REALITY TV".

For us to truly by one nation under God, religious people must give up their claim to truth, and return God to an unknown. A terrible problem occurs when people believe they can know God and God's will. This is very different from having moral judgement. We all need good moral judgement. This is essential to democracy and liberty.

We are born full of potential, but must learn everything before our potential can be realized. We are kind of like the best possible computer, only without programs, and we get programmed as we go through life.

From the first day of free public education in the US, education was about becoming a good citizen. Not until WWI did we add vocational training to that education. Today we think the purpose of public education is vocational training, and we think of our young as products to produce for industry, and future resources of revenue. This change was completed in 1958, when we replaced liberal education, with education for technology, and left moral training to the church.

Our democracy is no longer the democracy we defended in world wars, but has gone the way of previous civilizations, and now is where the decaying democracy of Athens was when it was destroyed by the 30 tyrants and then Sparta. Both democracies cycled through the rise and fall of a civilization in about 200 years.

[xyzer]

But Athena you omit the diversity factor of our large and cultually diverse country. Nobody should have to give up anything that is legal, should they? We have a sytem of laws and not one that curtails opinions and beliefs. We still have the right to believe or expound what we choose to be truth.
I'd like Sharpton and Jackson to stop playing the 'race' card all the time and running down our system and country the way the do..but it's their constitutional right to do so. I didn't buy in to the Imus rant that got him fired, but I thought he was treated illegally and badly by the MSM. As a matter of fact I think he should sue ABC and CBS for curtailing speech that they routinely allow from other sources. There was no warning, and he had been saying the same sorts of things for years? Why the sudden change?
We are one nation bound by a system of laws and a constitution..but we are a diverse population permitting and forbidding cultural differences..the former should prevail and the latter onlyif it is within the laws legislated.