Illegal Immigration: a fact-based cost/benefit analysis

[rmnunez]

brien, the issue is whether Mexicans who become US citizens are different from the Mexicans who remain undocumented. A different distinction is made between naturalized Mexicans who can vote, and the children of undocumenteds who are citizens by birth there and can run for president. The legal differences are clear, with only the US citizens voting and only those born there being able to become president.

[The Decider]

Quote by: brien I don't miss the point at all. People born here are United States citizens. They aren't Mexicans. We can't have a Mexican President because the Constitution will not allow it. People born in the US aren't Mexicans, the are Americans, or as you call them United Statians.:)

Nunez didn't mean that a Mexican citizen would become president. He meant Mexican-American. I think he's wrong in the near-term, but he's right about the influence of Mexican-Americans on our nation's politics in the more distant future. The demographics in America's western and southern states are shifting dramatically toward a more Hispanic population. Politicians in those regions will face more pressure to satify Hispanic interests. We see this already in Arizona where the Democratic governor and both Republican senators (McCain and Kyl) support more lenient immigration reform. Los Angeles recently elected its first Hispanic mayor in almost 200 years and it's only matter of time before that state elects an Hispanic governor. The popular Democratic governor of New Mexico and current presidential candidate, Bill Richardson, is half Mexican. He would make a strong vice-presidential nominee. Unlike George Bush, Richardson actually speaks fluent Spanish.

Over time we'll see a geographic split between Hispanic friendly western and southern states and more anti-Hispanic mid Western and eastern states. In that contest the more populous (and growing) west and south will win. Then Nunez's vision of a rising Mexican-American political star will come true. It's only a matter of time.

[rmnunez]

Sure, the question is just how long it will take for a Mexican to become president. This depends on more than just the number of Mexicans living in the US, but the basic idea is that the elections in 2008 are too close for the Hispanic majority with its substantial Mexican cohort to make the difference. By 2012 there could be enough Hispanics to prevail, but we can't be sure how consolidated they will be. After 2012 it just depends on the time it will take Hispanics to acquire enough of a collective consciousness. I suspect the salient features of any shared Hispanic identity in the US will feature a more humanitarian perspective on undocumented immigration.

[brien]

Bill Richarson is part Hispanic and he is running now.

[xyzer]

rm..I don't know whether you are speaking of reality or not... The Demographics of the country disprove your thesis?
http://http://www.med.umich.edu/gcrc...demograph.html
Hispanics will become the largest ethnic(MINORIY GROUP) but they are still far from the largest group!

Obviously their impasct will be positive because as you indicate they are family oriented, hardworking, people who adhere to a tolerant but moral belief syystem.

The problem with all this is that Americans regardless of ehnicity or race are citizens who adhere to the nation of their choice. Their custioms gradually become shaped by the culture in which they reside and work!

Not so illegals who break the law to come over the border and work. They in the main don't expect to assimilate?

[rmnunez]

Couldn't access the link, but don't dispute the fact Hispanics won't be the majority, just the largest group. It seems they will be a bit more than a fifth, more pale complected united statians will be a bit less than that and blacks, asians or others will make up the balance in even smaller groups.

Just as Hispanics can be of any race, they also vary in political afiliations, so when prognostocating their impact in elections this is somewhat weakened by the variety. No revolutionary change will sweep across the US the moment Hispanics outnumber any other group, but the writing is definitely on the wall, there will be a shifting change. I think this will manifest itself most obviously in things like immigration legislation.

On the assimilation of foreigners who become citizens I'd note how acquisition of US citizenship doesn't seem to be a priority for so many of the Hispanics in the US who would be perfectly content if they could just legalize their situation. Another consideration is how things have changed in the US with more cultural inclusiveness which in turn has fostered immigrants retaining their differences better than when those Irish and Polish immigrants were being assimilated.

[fushigi]

RM, I think brien's right--whites will still be the largest group. Whites (including Hispanics) make up some 75% of the population of the US. Even if Hispanics made up 20% of the US ethnic demographics, (all things equal) the country would still be made up of 55% non-Hispanic whites.

Plus--though I don't quite understand this one--if a non-Hispanic white guy has a baby with a Mexican woman, the baby is not considered Hispanic (though if that same woman had a baby with a black man, the baby would be considered black. Hmm...)

fushigi

[fushigi]

One more thing. In terms of elections, the ratio of the Hispanic vote to its effect on the winner would be small. Check out this map:



Notice how Hispanics are clustered into 7 of the 50 states? Since we have the (ridiculous) electoral college system, Hispanic voter influence wouldn't be representative of their total size in the US.

fushigi

[Century 25]

Thus spake "The Decider.."

This post is schizophrenic. On the one hand it condemns illegal immigration from Latin America for depressing wages in some American industries. Then it condemns corporations for outsourcing to Mexico in search of cheaper wages. What are American corporations to do--stay in America to pay high American wages while their competitors continue to enjoy the fruits of cheap 3rd and 2nd world labor?

Hmmm.. it looks pretty one-sided to me.. and the deck is stacked entirely to favor corporate/syndicate America.. And.. Decider.. don't cry any crocodile tears for the poor little businesses that "stay" here in Amerika.. those that employ illegal aliens.. they hardly can export/offshore the hotels.. resorts.. construction jobs.. cab drivers.. etc..etc..etc.. those will continue to be illegal alien slots..

As for:

Face it, if America somehow succeeds in rooting out its 12 million illegal workers and barring others from entering, American corporations that can do so will move overseas to remain competitive. Those that can't flee will either downsize or go under. The big fence on the border won't deter corporate emigration from hige-wage America.

- The answer is as above.. since you attempted to provide your own "answer".. I'll show the same response: "Decider.. don't cry any crocodile tears for the poor little businesses that "stay" here in Amerika.. those that employ illegal aliens.. they hardly can export/offshore the hotels.. resorts.. construction jobs.. cab drivers.. etc..etc..etc.. those will continue to be illegal alien slots.."

It's not that hard to see.. No way will you/we ever live to see an actual physical barrier constructed & staffed.. it could be done.. and the aliens deported.. but it ain't in the cards..

[rmnunez]

Hispanics can be white too, they are of any race, the Mexicans are usually a bit darker, not as tall and have brown eyes, favour moustaches.

[Century 25]

Quote by: Century 25 Thus spake "The Decider.." Hmmm.. it looks pretty one-sided to me.. and the deck is stacked entirely to favor corporate/syndicate America.. And.. Decider.. don't cry any crocodile tears for the poor little businesses that "stay" here in Amerika.. those that employ illegal aliens.. they hardly can export/offshore the hotels.. resorts.. construction jobs.. cab drivers.. etc..etc..etc.. those will continue to be illegal alien slots.. As for: - The answer is as above.. since you attempted to provide your own "answer".. I'll show the same response: "Decider.. don't cry any crocodile tears for the poor little businesses that "stay" here in Amerika.. those that employ illegal aliens.. they hardly can export/offshore the hotels.. resorts.. construction jobs.. cab drivers.. etc..etc..etc.. those will continue to be illegal alien slots.." It's not that hard to see.. No way will you/we ever live to see an actual physical barrier constructed & staffed.. it could be done.. and the aliens deported.. but it ain't in the cards..

mnunez.. and everyone else.. who cares a barrel of manure what skin tone anyone has..??

[rmnunez]

The production of casta (breed) paintings spans the entire eighteenth century. These works portray the complex process of mestizaje or race mixing among the three major groups that inhabited the colony: Indian, Spanish, and Black. Most of these paintings are comprised of sixteen scenes depicted on separate canvases, although occasionally the scenes are represented on a single, compartmentalized surface. Each scene portrays a man and woman of different races with one or two of their progeny and is accompanied by an inscription that identifies the racial mix depicted. The series follow a specific taxonomic progression: at the beginning are scenes portraying figures of "pure" race (that is, Spaniards), lavishly attired or engaged in occupations that indicate their higher status. As the family groups become more racially mixed, their social status diminishes. In addition to presenting a typology of human races and their occupations, casta paintings also include a rich classificatory system within which objects, food products, flora, and fauna are clearly positioned and labeled.

Here’s a picture of an Indian woman with a Spanish man, their offspring the Mestizo:

Mestizo and Spanish female produced a Castizo:

Castizo and Spanish female produced a Spaniard:

Spanish and Black produced a Mulato:

Mulato and Spanish female produced a Morisco:

Morisco and Spanish female produced a Salto pa’ tras


http://www.tam.itesm.mx/art/colonial/ecolon28.htm

[xyzer]

rm..As your pictures depict, The term "Hispanic" reflects linguistic origins or preference rather than race or ethnicity? Most countryies are a mix of races and ethnicities.

Thus the culture of most of the Hispanics who reside close to our southern borders is Mexican. Certainly in my area Spanish is spoken generally(is almost as common as english) and most city employees are bilingual and most stores post bilingual signs.

[The Decider]

Quote by: Century 25 No way will you/we ever live to see an actual physical barrier constructed & staffed.. it could be done.. and the aliens deported.. but it ain't in the cards..

Good. I'm not in favor of ugly walls and shoulder-to-shoulder border guards along an 800 mile border. We need larger legal immigration quotas to meet the obvious demand. That won't happen either. So America will muddle along with the status quo.

[brien]

RM, I think brien's right--whites will still be the largest group

Not my post.

[xyzer]

Good. I'm not in favor of ugly walls and shoulder-to-shoulder border guards along an 800 mile border. We need larger legal immigration quotas to meet the obvious demand. That won't happen either. So America will muddle along with the status quo.

I agree!

Although... there is always the alternative of strong points at likely crossing spots with orders to shoot illegals entering US territory with rubber bullets(or stink bombs laced with idelible ink!) These along with motion detectors and radar sites would help. The border is already patrolled by aircraft and I think there are still some balloon sites for observation along with motorized patrols.

[rmnunez]

Poll on immigration:

Taking a pragmatic view on a divisive issue, a large majority of Americans want to change the immigration laws to allow illegal immigrants to gain legal status and to create a new guest worker program to meet future labor demand, the poll found.

Most of those surveyed here seem to oppose both legalizations and guest workers.

At the same time, Americans have mixed feelings about whether the recent wave of immigration has been beneficial to the country, the survey found, and they are sharply divided over how open the US should be to future immigrants.

This view is shared by only a minority here.

Half of all Americans say they are ready to transform the process for selecting new immigrants as proposed in the bill, giving priority to job skills and education levels over family ties to the US, which have been the foundation of the immigration system for four decades.

I haven't explored the negative aspects of the Family Reunification Act, it has lots of positive aspects though.

Two-thirds of those polled said illegal immigrants who have a good employment history and no criminal record should gain legal status as the bill proposes: by paying at least $5,000 in fines and fees and receiving a renewable four-year visa.

I wonder how many think there is a good chance any of those undocumenteds who can come up with the fine and fee money, and a plane ticket home, will be able to generate twice as much more from there to get back.

Many Republican lawmakers have rejected this plan, calling it amnesty that rewards immigrants who broke the law when they entered the US. But the poll showed that differences are not great between Republicans and Democrats on this issue, with 66% of Republicans in the poll favoring the legalization proposal, as well as 72% of Democrats and 65% of independents.

You've got to consider its about 12 million, they have to be handled in the same way, either you run them all out, or allow every one of them to legalize their situation.

“Illegal immigrants are imbedded in our nation, so allowing them to apply for a work visa would be a good way to draw them in and set a path for them to become legal,” said Mr. Nuñez, whose family came from Puerto Rico. “If they have been working here and are law-abiding and can contribute to our country, they should be allowed to stay and become citizens.”

I'm with Mr. Nuñez.

75% of those who responded favored tougher penalties for employers of undocumented workers, and 82% said the federal government should do more to reinforce the border. But only 15% of respondents favored fences as the main method to reduce illegal border crossings.

Yes, apparently more could be done regarding large agribusiness, Wal Mart and such undocumenteds employers.

57% said that recent immigrants had made a contribution to the US. But 35% said that in the long run the new immigrants would make American society worse, while only 28% said they would make it better.

Those 35% and 28% groups are too pessimistic and seem xenophobic.

A plurality of 48% in the poll favored imposing some controls on immigration. But large minorities on either side disagreed, with a quarter of respondents saying the US should open its borders to all immigrants and a quarter saying that the borders should be completely closed. These polarized positions may help explain the bitterness of the immigration debate across the nation.

I don't advocate either sealing borders or throwing them completely open either.

By large margins, people in the poll are aware that the majority of the immigrants who have arrived in recent years are illegal, and 61% said that illegal immigration was a very serious problem. A large majority, 70% of respondents, said they believed that illegal immigrants weaken the American economy because they use public services but do not pay corresponding taxes.

It seems the citizenry has a better grasp of the volume of immigrants than their legislators. Some here have tried to sustain this view of that drain on public services.

Among those polled, a majority of 51% favored overhauling the American immigration system to make it more attuned to economic demands, giving priority to job skills and educational accomplishment. Only 34% said that immigrants with family ties in the US should take precedence. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/us...nt&oref=slogin

The job-skills requirement is irrelevant for stoop laborer positions. The US is attractive to people with and without skills. There is a tremendously complicated acreditation verification process to qualify academically trained professionals and they fill every slot in all categories and have backlogs of applicants already. None of those people want the seasonal farm jobs the undocumented are taking though.

[johnwk]

If anyone believes S. 1348 is good for America and does not present a clear and present danger to the general welfare of the various States, they need to take the time to study The Dark Side Of Illegal Immigration___ Facts, Figures And Statistics On Illegal Immigration

Leprosy, a scourge of Biblical days, is caused by a bacillus agent and is now know as Hansen's Disease. In the 40 years prior to 2002, there were only 900 total cases of leprosy in the US. In the following three years there have been 9,000 cases and most were illegal aliens. As noted in the article Leprosy in America:new cause for concern by Dr. William Levis, head of the New York Hansen's Disease Clinic. "It's creeping into the U.S. ... This is a real phenomenon. It's a public health threat. New York is endemic now, and nobody's noticed." In the same article, Dr. Terry Williams, who runs a Houston-based clinic serving leprosy patients across southern Texas, said that the bulk of the cases treated by his clinic were immigrants. "A lot of our cases are imported," he said. "We see patients from everywhere--Africa, the Philippines, China, South America." (emphasis added)

The very purpose of immigration laws is to select who comes into our country, and select those who will not wind up being a financial burden or other type of burden, such as the increase in various commutable disease which we are now experiencing across our nation from those who are invading our borders.

Regards,

JWK

The Congress of the united States is America’s most formidable domestic enemy!

[Century 25]

Quote by: The Decider Good. I'm not in favor of ugly walls and shoulder-to-shoulder border guards along an 800 mile border. We need larger legal immigration quotas to meet the obvious demand. That won't happen either. So America will muddle along with the status quo.

"We need larger legal immigration quotas to meet the obvious demand."

And what "demand" would that be..??

[rmnunez]

There is an obvious demand not met by the current immigration quotas, you see it in estimates of 10 times as many undocumenteds working as visas are available for them. But its not the foreign demand for visas that matters, its the jobs available to undocumenteds, and it seems like generally they don't have a problem finding work.