Illegal Immigration: a fact-based cost/benefit analysis

[Scoobydoo]

I dont have time to do research now, and provide statistics. What I can do is offer my perspective and basic common sense.

Any pluses from illegal immigrants is quickly drained by the toll they place on medical and education systems, housing, insurance, etc.

[rmnunez]

This idea the government of Mexico is criminally "pimping" its citizens to be exploited by greedy gringan businessmen is neat, it probably lets its holders figure they have nothing to do with the problem. The corrupt Mexican government and those avaricious corporate directors are the ones to blame.

I'd urge those of you taking this tack to take into account how much undocumented workers contribute to your own lifestyle. Who cleans up where you work after you leave? Where does your gardener come from? Do you use contractors who speak a different language? Do you see lots of blonde and blue-eyed teenagers working as stockists or cashiers at the supermaket, busing tables at the fast local food franchise?

The corrupt Mexican government is an 'crutch' to shirk responsibility and blame some intangible. Besides, this sort of thing is seriously on the wane, we are constantly bombarded with admonitions against bribery, to be honest, to be licensed and comply with the regulations. Constantly they have conferences and seminars for functionaries, the media, political analysts and academics discussing the need for transperancy, clearer accounting and more responsive government.

Its true, Mexico has Latin America's greatest income disparity, there are tremendously affluent plutocratic elites who enjoy all sorts of priviledges, and there are teeming masses of impoverished peasants living in cardboard huts with mud floors, no lights or running water. But lots of the advantages elites have accrued over decades and centuries.

Mexico's affluent elites are descendants of nobles, people who brought capital and technology from Europe or elsewhere, their ancestors were in government, married to each other and parties to their own deals. After a few centuries of this, its not going to be erased overnight. Independence, revolution, Christian wars and political repression have softened the edges and current Mexican elites are overwhemingly capitalist industrialists, they have wealth from business profits. They had the opportunity and special advantage to open their businesses, thanks to their ancestry and political connections, but these don't make that much of a difference any longer.

[Century 25]

Quote by: Scoobydoo I dont have time to do research now, and provide statistics. What I can do is offer my perspective and basic common sense. Any pluses from illegal immigrants is quickly drained by the toll they place on medical and education systems, housing, insurance, etc.

You nailed it.. they come because they are needed by the corpse.. I mean corporate America.. and their savings via cheap labor.. is deferred to the citizenry.. vis-a-vis higher taxes.. a shi**y deal for America..

[Scoobydoo]

I had not been to an er for years, actually over a decade ago. Well recently I went and it was such a contrast. The local er, was packed with mostly Mexican people, and as I waited, I was made privy to fact that many if not most there, were there because of smaller matters that could be handled by a doctor during the daytime. Whatever their ailments, the fact was you got the jist many were falilng into the 'undocumented' aka illegal citizens. It created a horrendous wait time, which is wrong in itself, strapped the resources, not good, also created a wait for real citizens who had REAL emergencies, NOT a cough or something that they didnt want to pay a doctor for during the daytime.

Another thing was over a yer ago I went to a volunteer thing at a county hospital. it was for a Christmas party that was advertised for underpriveleged youth, Santa was coming, refreshments and a free gift for each child. As soon as I pulled into parking lot, the first thing I saw was a Mexican man piling presents into the back of his nice SUV. Several small children hovered around him, he spoke in Spanish to them. As I made my way into the hospital lobby I was a bit crestfallen because the party I had helped decorate for earlier in teh day when nobody was there, apparently was just a big gift grab for mostly what was illegal citizens, who came to get as much as they could. It was hard to make my way thru the crowds, and mostly all I heard was a constant background of Spanish. I didnt see maybe more than 2 American looking children, families there, out of hundreds. I left shortly after, I felt it was just a big disappointment to do all that, and 99% of the recipients were not even American children. Very sad...I wonder where poor AMerican children got any gifts from? Maybe they were all given to the illegals??

[rmnunez]

Feds Cancel Cinco de Mayo

Univisión reports a misunderstood phone call from the Migra led to ffearful cancellations of Cinco de Mayo celebrations across Virginia. Maria Roe, who has organized the renamed "Mayo Hispano-Americano" Mexican celebrations for the past 3 years, said she received a call from the INS in Fairfax wanting details on the location, schedule, number in attendance, location of exits and details like this. She expressed her concerns to the event's sponsors, "Colonial Beach Foundation", which canceled.

"Recent events in the peaceful pro-immigration reform rally when police violently repressed marchers in LA, is forcing us to take an assessment of the situation and think carefully about what is happening in this country" said Juan José Gutiérrez, leader of the "Movimiento Latino USA". He added that the Cinco de Mayo festivities will not be canceled, "but it is preocupying that in Los Angeles, the city where we have the largest nomber of hispanics in the US, events as were seen in MacArthur Park are taking place". LAPD officers formed a human chain and marched through MacArthur Park firing tear gas, stun grenades and rubber bullets while beating with truncheons hundreds of people, including women and children. "If this is happening here, at the hispanic heart of the US, what can we expect in other places where they've had massive anti-immigrant raids", the activist asked. Virginia canceló el Cinco de Mayo : Crece temor por redadas de inmigración - Latinos en EU

Fear of raids is curtailing celebrations, though nothing has been cancelled in Chicago, New York, Atlanta or other cities. Raids and police brutality, most recently in LA, have had a chilling effect on hispanics in general, not just the Mexican undocumenteds. Lots of hispanics, many of them long-term residents, some citizens and their relatives, now live in fear they could have whatever they hold dearest and have achieved suddenly taken from them; their parents, just as their sons and daughters, their homes and any property in it, if the INS swoops down on a raid.

So many have de-facto acquired the right to remain in the US, they've taken those oaths or paid the taxes, registered, contributed, invested, bought and prospered through their hard work and honest effort. Equity says they are safe and should not fear, but the Feds think de-jure entitlement requires documented compliance, absent which any and all means seem appropriate in safeguarding the nation.

[Century 25]

The legal Mexicans here are vehemently against illegal aliens coming in to take their jobs & trash their neighborhoods.. not to mention the crime.. you can hear shots fired every night here.. the 'hoods have "Shot Spotter" devices.. but the lead still flies..

It is the corporations that pave the way for illegals to enter the states.. but government here won't support what the public is.. basically screaming now.. No..!! so.. we have a.. "Mexican" stand-off.. and trouble keeps building.. how long before the riots start..?? then what..?? I can see bad times ahead..

[rmnunez]

No, I think the Democrats ought to nominate Villaraigosa, include the hispanics in their constituency and this way win the election.

[rmnunez]

The state of immigration reform in the US:

Reid’s office reported on Friday Democrats and Republicans were negotiating with the White House a broad agreement, but AP reported Democrat leaders were promoting their own proposed immigration reforms.

An uncertain future:

"We are still negotiating with the Bush Administration, Reid’s spokesman, Federico de Jesús, assured, “but the fact that the White House is proposing more extreme measures to legalize immigrants has complicated negotiations” he added. The extree measures refered to by de Jesús are in the Bush Administration’s immigration reform plan released in March here. The original proposal here included 5 points; improved border security, stopping undocumented crossings, fighting identity fraud, a temporary worker scheme and a complicated legalization process. The White House proposal reqires first the payment of $3,500 for for a temporary residence permit. Within 3 years the applicant must return to his country of origin and undertake the immigration application procedure to obtain residency. If he qualifies and pays a $10 thousand fine details here. Then, unless rejected, the applicant can return to the US with the coveted “Green Card”.

Disagreement:

Reid’s office added that the Bush Administration’s project “is veering to an extreme, which complicates negotiations to reach a bipartisan agreement in comprehensive immigration reform.” As for the agenda (calendar here) de Jesus said on Wednesday the 9th they’d undertake a procedural motion to start the debate in the Senate. “If the motion proceeds, debate will begin on the 14th", he added. Regardless of whether a bipartisan agreement is reached with the White House, Senator Reid will promote the debate with the aim to approve comprehensive immigration reform before the August recess. Regarding the Democrat proposal, de Jesús said that while the discussions continue, there is the possibility an agreement could be reached and that we should wait for their outcome. However, AP said if the Democrats proposed their alternative, this would “collapse the negotiations between Edward Kennedy and high-ranking members of the Bush Cabinet, who’ve been dealing for weeks on details of the controversial reforms, which is quite a delicated political issue.” Kennedy, with McCain led, in 2005 and 2006, an immigration reform initiative which included a legalization plan for undocumenteds of extended presence in the US who had paid taxes and lacked criminal records. This proposal formed the basis for the Senate’s similar legislation last year on May 25th (here). This legislation and the restricted version approved by the House of Representatives on December 16, 2003, should be ‘harmonized’ (consolidated?) by the Conference Committee, but Republicans blocked the process (details here) arguing natural security.

McCain’s Withdrawal

In November last year, after the Republican trouncing in the legislative elections, it was said the Kennedy-McCain proposal could be presented with some modifications, but by mid-March, McCain withdrew from the proposal (here) due to presidential campaign commitments. “McCain’s exit delayed and complicated negotiations for a broad bipartian agreement for comprehensive immigration reform”, said de Jesús. Once McCain left, no Republican took his place, leaving Kennedy on his own with little chance of garnering the votes for the consensuated proposal. If talks with the Whote House fail to produce a bipartisan agreement in both Houses and Kennedy tries to present his plan without Republican support, the proposal will perish. Regarding the proposed plans aired to date here, both sides of the aisle seem prepared to allow some undocumenteds be legalized, but through different routes; Democrats would allow long-term residents without criminal records and paid taxes to qualify for a 6 year temporary residence after paying a fine. Then they could apply for their Green Card after paying a second fine, and five more years after receiving the Green Card, they could apply for citizenship. The entire process takes 13 to 17 years and $10 to $15 thousand.

The Official Plan:

The White House proposal here recommends a 3 year temporary visa with a $3,500 fine. Before the temporary visa expires, the applicant must leave to his country of origin and undertake the requisite immigration procedure paying another fine of $10 thousand. Some media reports the White House proposal has flexible variables in the number of visas, amount of the fines, delay times to receive the visas and barriers to preclude applicants extend any benefits resulting to other relatives. Bush reiterated on Thursday his commitment to a comprehensive immigration reform which respected the laws “in a humane way” and assured he would “continue to press Congress to obtain the changes in legislation.” Debate migratorio se complica : Demócratas y republicanos no ceden - Para tener en cuenta

(translation mine, links are in Spanish)

[Zeebadee]

Well, hey, a big surprise this week, right? Did anyone ever doubt that in government-speak "immigration reform" really means "amnesty"?

[rmnunez]

The working undocumented community is not happy with this "amnesty", its going to cost them $15 thousand each, takes three years and they have to go home to apply and wend their way through the INS' notoriously slow (in both senses of the word) bureaucracy. Stoop labourers don't have that kind of cash, they live from day to day at far less than minimum wage. I think they've placed the bar too high, the undocumenteds will simply be driven further underground to join the hidden economy of black markets, irregular arrangements, unlawful employment and fictitious front-men.

[Century 25]

I can assure you that the "documented" community is not happy either.. they are sick of the illegal alien hordes dragging down the wages here.. along with the crime & filth & drugs..

It is the documented ie: citizen/legal alien and honest immigrants from around the world that suffer due to the criminals sneaking across our border for corporate cheap labor..

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez Stoop labourers don't have that kind of cash, they live from day to day at far less than minimum wage. I think they've placed the bar too high, the undocumenteds will simply be driven further underground to join the hidden economy of black markets, irregular arrangements, unlawful employment and fictitious front-men.

Well, they could just stay home and get their own corrupt government to provide the jobs and social services they want/need.

And even if they choose to ignore this amnesty, they won't be any worse off than they are now, they really don't have to do a thing.

[rmnunez]

Zee, they can't get their own government to provide them with jobs and social services because they come from places a whole lot poorer than the US. And then, as I've noted before, how are you going to eliminate the magnetic quality of that 8 to 10 times wage differential? And they are much worse off with this "amnesty" since those who can't come up with the $3,500 to $5,000 for the fine and get out of there will be characteized as federal felons subject to incarceration for several years for being undocumented.

[The Decider]

Quote by: Century 25 The legal Mexicans here are vehemently against illegal aliens coming in to take their jobs & trash their neighborhoods.. not to mention the crime.. you can hear shots fired every night here.

The legal Mexicans in California also favor creating temporary worker programs for illegal immigrants
that would legalize their status.

http://field.com/fieldpollonline/sub...rs/Rls2229.pdf

[rmnunez]

The legal Mexicans in California remember how not long ago they were in their illegal brother's shoes. Though its true immigrants who've established themselves often do resent the newcomers, its less so with Hispanics and Mexicans in particular.

[Century 25]

Quote by: The Decider The legal Mexicans in California also favor creating temporary worker programs for illegal immigrants that would legalize their status. http://field.com/fieldpollonline/sub...rs/Rls2229.pdf

..Did the poll takers get registered voters for their pro-illegal alien results..??

It all really is a moot point anyway.. and for rmnunez.. I do understand the Mexican outlook on America.. I agree.. this gov't stiffed the Mex people.. paid very little $$$ and the Mexicans found a way to "reclaim" their turf.. by occupation..

Both political parties here have to dance to their respective drummer.. they both have reasons to look the other way as the flood of illegals continues.. we will see what develops over the next 10-50 years.. I don't for-see a good outcome.. for either of our countries. Look to China.. Malaysia.. as the heavies on the World scene..

[The Decider]

Quote by: Century 25 Did the poll takers get registered voters for their pro-illegal alien results..??

Yes, the poll used a sample of registered voters in California. All the information about the poll is contained in the link I provided, had you cared to look.

[rmnunez]

I do understand the Mexican outlook on America.. I agree.. this gov't stiffed the Mex people.. paid very little $$$ and the Mexicans found a way to "reclaim" their turf.. by occupation..

You presume a common national/individual interest. Though most Mexicans believe the US abused and ripped them off in those ludicrous land deals, there isn't this sense of a mission to reclaim that land for Mexico. Any Mexicans 'homesteading' in those remote outposts that long ago, were either annihilated or assimilated long ago, so there wouldn't be much "ancestral homelands". The Mexicans that the more pale-complected united statians are so worried about, are travelling to these lands from their towns in Mexico.

Both political parties here have to dance to their respective drummer.. they both have reasons to look the other way as the flood of illegals continues..

Actually the Democrats tend to be more embracing and the conservatives more isolationist.

The general idea is that powerful industrial interests and multinational corporations want the cheap labor available and this would mean the wealthy businessmen would lean on their conservative friends in the Bush Administration to maintain a continued stream of off-the-books workers for underpaid stoop labour. Unfortunately, catering to the plutocracy's interest alienates the xenophobic conservative base. Meanwhile the Democrats, with whom normally the needs of a disenfranchised underclass resonate most, find themselves knee-jerkingly opposing any effort to legalize the undocumenteds and adopting rather isolationist attitudes, just because Bush wants it.

we will see what develops over the next 10-50 years.. I don't for-see a good outcome.. for either of our countries.

Within 20 years we'll have a Mexican sitting in the Oval Office and then we'll see some real immigration reform. Don't worry, this will be good for the critical lefty and conservative agendas. Mexicans are traditionally more family-oriented and historically less interventionistic, what else could you ak for?

Look to China.. Malaysia.. as the heavies on the World scene..

They hardly offer much of an example in immigration practices. Though China gets some heavy illegal immigration over its border with North Korea, neither the People's Republic nor Malaysia get anything comparable to the volume crossing into the US. Their legal structures are completely different so the way they can deal with this is much different.

Malaysia is no "heavy" on the world scene, its never been a guest to the G-8 and isn't even in the OECD.

[Century 25]

You presume a common national/individual interest. Though most Mexicans believe the US abused and ripped them off in those ludicrous land deals, there isn't this sense of a mission to reclaim that land for Mexico. Any Mexicans 'homesteading' in those remote outposts that long ago, were either annihilated or assimilated long ago, so there wouldn't be much "ancestral homelands". The Mexicans that the more pale-complected united statians are so worried about, are travelling to these lands from their towns in Mexico.

there isn't this sense of a mission to reclaim that land for Mexico.

You are taking this too literally..

"reclaim" their turf.. by occupation..

What I said is very true in the manner stated.. and probably is even closer to what you tried too hard to brush off..

This statement:

Within 20 years we'll have a Mexican sitting in the Oval Office and then we'll see some real immigration reform. Don't worry, this will be good for the critical lefty and conservative agendas. Mexicans are traditionally more family-oriented and historically less interventionistic, what else could you ak for?

- seems to imply a goal.. therefore a mission..

So rmnunez.. it would quite appear that La Raza is going to get what it only dreamt about.. What is Aztlan, Raza, and MEChA

Quote:

Look to China.. Malaysia.. as the heavies on the World scene.. They hardly offer much of an example in immigration practices. Though China gets some heavy illegal immigration over its border with North Korea, neither the People's Republic nor Malaysia get anything comparable to the volume crossing into the US. Their legal structures are completely different so the way they can deal with this is much different. Malaysia is no "heavy" on the world scene, its never been a guest to the G-8 and isn't even in the OECD.

Read this:

China to become world’s largest economy by 2038

..this is at:

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/china-po...ss_Release.pdf

[brien]

China to become world’s largest economy by 2038

Try and emigrate to China....:rolleyes: