Pat Tillman killed by Americans

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: dilligras I cannont compare my risk of a temporarily "lost" freedom on one issue among many to the potential loss of even one soldier's life due to my strengthening the resolve of his enemy by my unrestricted, selfish carping and partisan blathering while safe here at home. There will be time enough for that when the fightin's done.

I believe that condoning and supporting an unecessary and immoral war is a far greater danger to this nation and it's people than the "ENEMY taking "comfort" and the troops losing morale from a seeming lack of resolve on the part of our population as a whole". It is therefore not only our right to object to the war, it is a citizen's duty and obligation.

The logic used by the war's supporters is simply amazing - it's not the one's that send our GI's out to fight that are responsible for the dead and maimed, it's the one's that want to bring them home that are. Like I said in a seperate post, "Support the troops - keep the war going".

[dilligras]

Quote by: Sonart When dilligras, with an imperial wave of his little hand, airily dismisses TIME, Newsweek and the New Yorker as legitimate sources of serious reportage, and contradicts the DC Chief of Police and our own lying eyes, as to the size of the DC rally, simply because "his friend" said otherwise...

I went back and checked my friends post on the 24th........he was referring to the Support the Troops rally, the day after cindy's bruhaha.

My bad.

He did mention that the "peace" rally was full of people with other agendas, judging from their signs promoting abortion, gay marriage, etc., so the 100, 000 figure may perhaps be misleading as well. Probably more accurate to call it a "lefty rally" than a "peace rally", don't you think?

Naaaw, that wouldn't fit the so-called "anti-war" agenda would it?

...then it becomes obvious that dilligras' iron-willed sense of denial has barricaded him in an imaginary world in which NO possible source of information can contradict his John Wayne/Rambo world view. So what's the point?.

Indeed.........what IS the point?

You thought that a few articles from decidedly left wing sources would convince me to frame reality in your context?

So who's in denial?

[PatrickHenry]

dilligras, libertarians are decidedly not "lefties." And yet there has been unrelenting libertarian opposition to the Iraq War, and in fact to nearly every foreign intervention that the US is pulling around the world.

You don't have to be a commie to be antiwar, ol' buddy...

[xyzer]

Hey PH..

Not to mention that the Ninth and Tenth amendments balancing the Fed/State/individual equation have been rendered obsolete by Federal over-reaching? Yet the "conservatives" never take note of encroaching tyranny by the Federals. Apparently they can't find any objection to Free Speech Zones, fiscal irresponsibility, spying on anti-war groups, disregard of habeas corpus and many other abuses by Federal power. I expect Posse Comitatus to be disregarded soon, and that the national ID card will be the next great thing . Our views may be more congruent along social conservativism lines. But even there, I don't favor intrusive legislation regarding personal behavior unless there is a clear personal victim.

I think you are little off on your assertions here. The only clamour about the IX and Xth Amendments is from those who would invent rights and views not contained in the Constitution. Remember only the legilature can initiate amendments to that great contract! They have been joined by some activist judges who also see a penumbra in every statement!

Both political parties have participated in the fiscal irresponsibility that permeates our nation.40 years of Democrat Congressional control during the last century showed us deficit financing at its finest?

Free speech zones? Where are they? Spying on Antiwar groups? What anti war groups have made such an accusation? Sheehan is out in the open for all to see and hear!. Rick has been out there burning candles..ask him if any spies watched him?.nonsense!

Posse Comitatus law last violated by your hero Bill Clinton at Waco!

President Bush had to be asked to bring in the military in the Katrina disaster..isn't that the way it's supposed to be?
You and those of your ilk? tend to make mountains our ot nothing rather than molehills.
Moral relativity, which you evidently espouse, is an unrealistic approach to governance...it leads to chaos.
Get real and quit expecting a conspiracy under every rock!

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: xyzer your hero Bill Clinton

Them's fightin' words. No hero of mine, Billy C. Another Big Government President only slightly less bad than the present ass.

Quote by: xyzer Free speech zones? Where are they?

Are you really asking or is this rhetoric? http://www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/feature.html
http://www.scpronet.com/freespeech.html

Quote by: xyzer Both political parties have participated in the fiscal irresponsibility that permeates our nation.40 years of Democrat Congressional control during the last century showed us deficit financing at its finest?

You expecting me to defend Democrats? Ain't gonna happen...but it still doesn't justify the current budget by your heroes, the Republicans...

Quote by: xyzer The only clamour about the IX and Xth Amendments is from those who would invent rights and views not contained in the Constitution.

Rights are inherent in being human. They are not GRANTED by the Constitution or laws... The 9th and 10th were just acknowledging the fact.

Quote by: xyzer Spying on Antiwar groups? What anti war groups have made such an accusation?

I guess you are getting so old you can't keep up with the news any more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in548010.shtml

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: xyzer I think you are little off on your assertions here. The only clamour about the IX and Xth Amendments is from those who would invent rights and views not contained in the Constitution. Remember only the legilature can initiate amendments to that great contract! They have been joined by some activist judges who also see a penumbra in every statement!

"... invent rights and views not contained in the Constitution"?? Are you implying that we enjoy only those "rights and views" that are specifically allowed us by the Constitution? Don't you have that backwards? I always thought we were allowed ALL rights not specifically limited by the Constitution.

And what does "penumbra in every statement!" mean??

[dilligras]

Quote by: PatrickHenry I hate the leaders who cheated to win. Fuck 'em and the horse they rode.

Yeah, me too.........JFK and LBJ suck!

Oh, and its, "and the horse they rode in on" FYI

I'll speak my mind

THAT shouldn't take long.....

You could probably be a politician......

Nahhhh. I've got too many lefty skeletons in the closet.

Does he hate American kids enough to want 'em dead like you?

I don't think so.......his daughter was killed by an IED last year.

By the way, have you stopped screwing the neighbor's dog yet? I know its the best you ever had, but can it really be considered concentual?

You likely deny the fact that the FBI cooked the bomb in '93. http://www.louisbeam.com/fbilinked.htm

Fact? You sure bandy that word about easily.......besides, everybody knows that Bush put the FBI up to it before he was even Governor of Texas, just to undermine the Clinton "presidency". Right?

And don't forget Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidians......more Bush plots against the left.

Well I didn't stay up late worrying he'd get me here in Hawaii.

"Fuck America......long as I'm safe in my Island paradise." Is that it?

If you want to ridicule national newsmagazines, you might find a better audience with the freepers.

So far, I don't think finding a better audience is really the problem.......just about any audience out there would qualify.......but why would I argue with someone who agrees with me? This is much more fun.

The two "newspapers of record" in America are too commie for ya' aren't they? Anybody know of a right-wing crank daily for dilligras?

Das vedania, comrade.

[dilligras]

Quote by: Scribbler1 The very reason terrorism exists at all is because most countries can't fight anyone with a half decent military.

Excellent!

Now that we know the source of terrorism let's fix it.......lemmeseenow........shall we build up every country's army so that they feel secure enough to do battle in uniform, instead of sneaking around amonst the civilians and endangering them?

Or perhaps your solution would be similar to Clinton et al, and cut our military forces back until we are easily attacked by any one with a goon squad?

Hhhmmmmm?

[dilligras]

Quote by: Zeebadee " And what does "penumbra in every statement!" mean??

Don't you use dictionary.com?

Here's the third definition given:

3. An area in which something exists to a lesser or uncertain degree: “The First Amendment has a penumbra where privacy is protected from governmental intrusion” (Joseph A. Califano, Jr.).

[RickSp]

Quote by: xyzer The only clamour about the IX and Xth Amendments is from those who would invent rights and views not contained in the Constitution.

Or perhaps the clamor comes from Americans who know how to read. The rights you scorn are inalienable. There is no need to invent them. The challenge is to prevent government from trampling them.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: dilligras Don't you use dictionary.com? Here's the third definition given: 3. An area in which something exists to a lesser or uncertain degree: “The First Amendment has a penumbra where privacy is protected from governmental intrusion” (Joseph A. Califano, Jr.).

You said, "Remember only the legilature can initiate amendments to that great contract! They have been joined by some activist judges who also see a penumbra in every statement!"

First of all, your third definition associates the penumbra, or area of existence, with privacy. You, on the other hand, didn't associate anything with that area, you simply stated that some judges see a penumbra without any kind of reference to what that area might be. It could just as easily be an area open to judicial interpretation instead of an area of protection.

If we are to infer from your reference to the definition that those activist judges see an area "protected from governmental intrusion" in every statement, then you're even farther off base. Activist judges see no area "where privacy is protected from governmental intrusion", rather they see an opportunity to use their position to impose their own agenda into the interpretation of our laws. All for our own good, of course. Either way, your statement is confusing, thus my request for clarification.

[dilligras]

Quote by: Zeebadee You said, "Remember only the legilature can initiate amendments to that great contract!

No, that was "xyzer" who said that........but if you really want my opinion, I'm always amenable to sharing it.......as you may have noticed.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: dilligras No, that was "xyzer" who said that........but if you really want my opinion, I'm always amenable to sharing it.......as you may have noticed.

Oops, 10,000 gomens, it was xyzer. However, you provided the third definition, evidently in support of xyzer. In any case, "They have been joined by some activist judges who also see a penumbra in every statement!" is, IMHO, pretty much along the same lines as, "What's the difference between 5?"

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: dilligras Excellent! Now that we know the source of terrorism let's fix it.......lemmeseenow........shall we build up every country's army so that they feel secure enough to do battle in uniform, instead of sneaking around amonst the civilians and endangering them? Or perhaps your solution would be similar to Clinton et al, and cut our military forces back until we are easily attacked by any one with a goon squad? Hhhmmmmm?

Hmmmmm, indeed. I honestly hope you aren't going to try to say one of your notions is MY opinion. That "you say this, so you must mean THIS" stuff just doesn't fly.

[dilligras]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Hmmmmm, indeed. I honestly hope you aren't going to try to say one of your notions is MY opinion. That "you say this, so you must mean THIS" stuff just doesn't fly.

No I wasn't trying to attribute anything to you.......it was a question.

Did you perhaps not notice the punctuation at the end?

See.......there's another one.

You made a postulation that begs the question "so what?"

I was simply wondering if your observation suggested to you any solution to the problem of terrorism.........especially the islamic jihadi doucebag type whose stated objective is submission by all to sharia law.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: dilligras No I wasn't trying to attribute anything to you.......it was a question. Did you perhaps not notice the punctuation at the end? See.......there's another one. You made a postulation that begs the question "so what?" I was simply wondering if your observation suggested to you any solution to the problem of terrorism.........especially the islamic jihadi doucebag type whose stated objective is submission by all to sharia law.

Well, out of all possible alternatives, I can say I never considered that one. Fair enough?

[dilligras]

Quote by: Zeebadee First of all, your third definition associates the penumbra, or area of existence, with privacy. You, on the other hand, didn't associate anything with that area, you simply stated that some judges see a penumbra without any kind of reference to what that area might be. It could just as easily be an area open to judicial interpretation instead of an area of protection. If we are to infer from your reference to the definition that those activist judges see an area "protected from governmental intrusion" in every statement, then you're even farther off base. Activist judges see no area "where privacy is protected from governmental intrusion", rather they see an opportunity to use their position to impose their own agenda into the interpretation of our laws. All for our own good, of course. Either way, your statement is confusing, thus my request for clarification.

The definition given used a quote as an example of "an area in which something exists to a lesser or uncertain degree" which is the definition of a "penumbra". The fact that the quote used an example that referred to the right to privacy issue was but a coincidence.

The first definition given was, "A partial shadow, as in an eclipse, between regions of complete shadow and complete illumination."

That does not necessarily mean that all penumbric shadows are associated with the sun, hence, the words "as in"........of course, that is only my interpretation, and given the number of times the ex used to greet me with the expletive, "IDIOT!!", I may be mistaken.

Gee, I love a good ass-covering caveat, don't you?

[dilligras]

Quote by: Zeebadee You really have no way of knowing what saddam accounted for, do you? Have you seen the report Iraq released?

Yeah, THERE was a reliable source.:rolleyes:

Did you see the report from Hans Blix, aka Inspector Clouseau??

Here are a few quotes: (bold mine)
"Security Council resolution 687 (1991) called for the destruction, removal or rendering harmless, inter alia, of all Iraq’s research, development, support and manufacturing facilities related to CW activity."

"UNSCOM also estimated that based on unaccounted for growth media, Iraq’s potential production of anthrax could have been in the range of about 15,000 to 25,000 litres. "

"Based on all the available evidence, the strong presumption is that about 10,000 litres of anthrax was not destroyed and may still exist. "

"In December 1998, there were over 20 spray dryers and 70 freeze dryers under inventory control including some of these items that could be used for the drying of bulk BW agent. In addition, there was evidence that Iraq was developing the capability of indigenously manufacturing spray dryers."

"Iraq currently possesses the technology and materials, including fermenters, bacterial growth media and seed stock, to enable it to produce anthrax. Many of the skilled personnel familiar with anthrax production have been transferred to civilian industries. "

"Since Iraq produced more botulinum toxin than other agents and it still possesses the expertise and possibly the seed stock, material inputs (such as growth media), and equipment (fermenters), then production at least at the scale of its pre-1991 level could be rapidly recommenced. "

"The production and downstream processing equipment needed for Clostridium perfringens is available in Iraq in the civilian sector such as at vaccine plants. "

"Based on its estimate of the amounts of various types of media unaccounted for, UNSCOM estimated that the quantities of additional undeclared agent that potentially could have been produced were: 3,000 – 11,000 litres of botulinum toxin, 6,000 – 16,000 litres of anthrax, up to 5,600 litres of Clostridium perfringens, and a significant quantity of an unknown bacterial agent. "

"The assertion that aflatoxin was one of the agents investigated by Iraq in its BW programme is supported by the analysis of video tapes of field trials found in the Haidar Farm cache as well as documents and information provided by Iraq. There is little doubt that, as Iraq declared, aflatoxin was designated as agent C for the purposes of research, development and production. "

"Iraq has demonstrated the ability to manufacture both chemical and biological equipment, such as simple process equipment and fermenters."

"While Iraq’s inventory of aerial chemical and biological bombs was presumably eliminated, its ability to reconstitute that inventory remains largely intact."

"Iraq still had significant stocks of conventional 122-mm warheads and 155-mm projectiles similar to those previously modified for use with chemical agents. Iraq’s industries appear fully capable of modifying these conventional munitions for use with chemical agents as well as the indigenous production of most or all of their components."

"Except for the artillery rocket and three aerial bombs filled with VX for corrosion and stability tests, Iraq declared that VX had not been weaponized. However, in April/May 1998, UNSCOM took remnants of missile warheads that had been unilaterally destroyed by Iraq for analysis. The analysis showed traces of VX degradation products, and a chemical known to be a stabilizer for VX. "

"There are 550 Mustard filled shells and up to 450 mustard filled aerial bombs unaccounted for since 1998. The mustard filled shells account for a couple of tonnes of agent while the aerial bombs account for approximately 70 tonnes"

"Iraq is self-sufficient with respect to the availability of starting materials required for production of Mustard agent"

"It is known that Iraq had tested different types of aerial spray or other devices capable of disseminating Mustard agent. "

"Of concern is the more general question of Iraq’s intentions with respect to RPVs as CBW delivery systems and the relationship to the spray tank development."

"Given Iraq’s history of concealment with respect to its VX programme it cannot be excluded that it has retained some capability with regard to VX."

"Iraq’s account of the number of bombs and warheads filled with anthrax has changed on several occasions."

"There has been a surge of activity in the missile technology field in Iraq in the past four years."

"In attempting to acquire not only operational missiles but also the associated know-how and the means of production of a two-stage missile with a solid rocket motor and a liquid propulsion engine, Iraq had apparently sought to establish a sound technological basis for an industrial infrastructure capable of producing an advanced short-range ballistic missile (SRBM - up to 1000 kilometres range). "

"On 7 December 2002, Iraq released a 12,000-page, multi-CD-ROM report on its chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons programs. Naturally, we mere mortals aren't allowed to see such an important document. In fact, almost no one is. The US spirited away the UN's copy, taking it to Washington, where it will make copies for the other Security Council members. The five permanent members of the Council (US, UK, China, France, and the Russian Federation) will get full copies of the report, while the other ten members (which rotate every two years) will get censored versions." Who know what was done to it before it was sent to those limited to seeing the "uneditied" version.

If you would bother to read your own link, you would have seen this:
"The permanent members of the Security Council were reportedly given access to the document so they could suggest the deletion of parts of the text that could inadvertently give details on how to make weapons of mass destruction."

"....anonymous sources have confirmed speculation that the dossier names those parties who supplied Iraq with the materials it needed, and those suppliers include companies in and the governments of at least some of the permanent Security Council members."

BWWAAAAHHAAAHAAA!!! Surely you jest! I'm now supposed to consider "anonymous sources", quoted by some off-the-wall site called "Memory Hole"?!?!? A better name would more likely be "Logic Hole"!

That is sooooo weak!

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: dilligras I'm now supposed to consider "anonymous sources"

What is your speculation as to why the documents provided by the Iraqis to the UN were redacted by the US?

[dilligras]

Quote by: PatrickHenry What is your speculation as to why the documents provided by the Iraqis to the UN were redacted by the US?

As Zeebadee's link stated, it was so,"The permanent members of the Security Council were reportedly given access to the document so they could suggest the deletion of parts of the text that could inadvertently give details on how to make weapons of mass destruction.",