Pat Tillman killed by Americans

[dilligras]

Quote by: PatrickHenry You're good for a few laughs anyhow, dilligras. I assume the duck thing was humor, and it made me chuckle.

Thanks, pard.

I like to disarm my foe with a chuckle or two, until I can get close enough to get my hands..........er, I mean....thanks.

I actually like debating "conservatives" such as yourself. Most are even more hostile than you are and eventually get themselves banned from here, though. I don't think that will happen to you, 'cause you seem to have better self-control. The "clueless right-wing" label came out after your insults in post #91, and your base accusations in post #95, heh. But overall it would be best if we left the personal insults aside and stuck to the issues.

Well, ok........but only 'til you piss me off.

Anyhow, in many cases I think that the "conservatives" and I have some congruent world-views, and it's just that I am better informed regarding the issues.

That's a certain, "duhhhhhh". It's like saying,"I can see better than Hellen Keller!"

Better informed than most conservatives, most so-called liberals, most rocket scientists and most ditch diggers...........so what? That still doesn't preclude the possibility that you only think you know what you think......you know.......y'know?

On foreign aggression by the US, I have the unique perspective of living in a nation conquered and occupied by the US military since 1893.

YOU ARE NOT HAWAIIAN........are you? No matter.......the Japanese would have liked to treat anyone living in that tropical paradise exactly as they did the citizenry of China, Korea, and the Phillipines. Are you as knowledgeable about THOSE atrocities?

Who stopped them?

Oh no...........could it be? the US MILITARY?

Why, yes, I believe it was.

Likely we will never agree on how the Empire that was once a republic has been twisted and perverted away from her righteous roots.

"And here I thought sure I could change your mind in a few sentences, as further evidence of my burgeoning intellect.", our hero replied sardonically, shifting the hand-rolled cigarette from one side of his mouth to the other.

This is probably what needs some explanation. You haven't been around enough to know how I arrived at my "paranoid fantasies," but there is no doubt that the US is being ruled under a Declared State of Emergency extending back to 1933, and in any case since the SoE of September 14, 2001. But the press never mentions it. The SoE grants extraordinary and unconstitutional powers to the Executive branch and to the Chief Executive in particular.

Now it's my turn.........was that humor? It sure made me chuckle....

No.......seriously......you didn't start a sentence with the words, "there is no doubt".......did you?

How can you ever claim to be other than a right wing-nut extremist of the most extreme sort?

The US is, at this point, virtually a whitewashed dictatorship, and trending in the direction of more restrictions of freedom than anyone would have thought possible a few years ago.

Izzatso?

Whitewashed dictatorship, eh? So you voted and your candidate didn't win, does that about sum it up? Or are you suggesting something more nefarious?

I shall have to smack you once again with my "parrot" charge, should you try any of that, "Bush stole the election" crap that has been thoroughly dispelled as just so much lefty propaganda.

But wouldn't you agree that Rule by the White House is not really what was envisioned in the balancing act set up by our honored founders? Not to mention that the Ninth and Tenth amendments balancing the Fed/State/individual equation have been rendered obsolete by Federal over-reaching?

There is no "rule by White House".......total fabrication. Rule by RINO is more like it, what with the few lefty Republicans joining with the Democrats to block the so-called "nuclear option" as regards the Presidents judicial nominees.

Yet the "conservatives" never take note of encroaching tyranny by the Federals. Apparently they can't find any objection to Free Speech Zones, fiscal irresponsibility, spying on anti-war groups, disregard of habeas corpus and many other abuses by Federal power.

Aaawww, you just been hangin' out with the wrong conservatives......I heard there was some of them there militia types that object quite a bit to all that stuff..........but they blame it on the Jews, the blacks, the World Bank, etc, etc, ad nauseum..........who do you blame it on?

I expect Posse Comitatus to be disregarded soon, and that the national ID card will be the next great thing .

Too late...........posse comitatus was violated by Gov. Richards, Janet Reno, and General Wesley Clarke, in Waco, Tx. against the Branch Davidians.

I know you've heard of it......

Our views may be more congruent along social conservativism lines. But even there, I don't favor intrusive legislation regarding personal behavior unless there is a clear personal victim.

Maybe........I support the decriminalization of all drugs and the simultaneous criminalization of all anti-American scum, fascist or otherwise.

And yes, I get to "profile".

Anyhow, maybe we should bury the hatchet and debate like civilized men. How about it?

Well..........ok, but only 'til you piss me off.

As to you being anti-war, don't make me laugh. Anti-war means saying "no" to war.

Were the topic not so serious, it is I who should laugh.........your statement is proof that you likely have little idea what anti-war means.

If you think it means allowing evil men to threaten all Americans with their murderous "jihad", then you and I have a very different idea of how to prevent war.

There will be no war, when the evil men see that their greed for power at the expense of others will bear a cost more than they are willing to pay.

Ghaddafi saw the light, maybe others will get it soon, if we show a united front to the tiny men whose main concern is the perpetuation of their power, and thus, their lives.

If you just want to kill everyone opposed to the occupation so that the war is over, how is that anti-war?

Please don't put words in my mouth and then ask me why I spoke....

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: dilligras YOU ARE NOT HAWAIIAN........are you?

What is Hawaiian? You don't even know. And I am certain that you don't understand the siezure of the Kingdom of Hawaii either. Your pitiful attempt to shake the Japanese boogeyman to excuse an operation that occurred fifty years previously isn't worth comment. In any case the US freed all areas conquered by the Japanese militarists, oh except for the US own continuing occupation of Okinawa and Korea. They got their ass kicked out by the natives in VietNam and the Philippines.

Quote by: dilligras How can you ever claim to be other than a right wing-nut extremist of the most extreme sort?

Heh, I was a lefty a few posts back. I must be some kind of reptilian alien shapeshifter.

Quote by: dilligras There will be no war, when the evil men

Those residing in Washington DC or in caves in Afghanistan? Or maybe the proliferators of Islamabad? Or the Wahabi financiers of Saudi Arabia that get smoochy kisses from Dubya?

Anyhow we've probably hijacked Tillman's thread far enough. I'll see ya' on the other threads where we can duke it out for real...

[righthand]

PatrickHenry What is Hawaiian? You don't even know. And I am certain that you don't understand the siezure of the Kingdom of Hawaii either. Your pitiful attempt to shake the Japanese boogeyman to excuse an operation that occurred fifty years previously isn't worth comment. In any case the US freed all areas conquered by the Japanese militarists, oh except for the US own continuing occupation of Okinawa and Korea. They got their ass kicked out by the natives in VietNam and the Philippines.Heh, I was a lefty a few posts back. I must be some kind of reptilian alien shape-shifter. Those residing in Washington DC or in caves in Afghanistan? Or maybe the proliferators of Islamabad? Or the Wahabi financiers of Saudi Arabia that get smoochy kisses from Dubya? Anyhow we've probably hijacked Tillman's thread far enough. I'll see ya' on the other threads where we can duke it out for real...

No, no no. Pat will be dead long enough, poor chap. I was standing by with the bandages to wipe up the blood and I knew who's blood would flow. If you do continue in the backyard please let me know when and where. I'm a good second, just to make sure there was no kicking in the nuts. I wasn't always sure when a punch was landed, but it was clear who was the 'Big Daddy'.

.

[livvie]

He was killed by the taliban you fool. Stop tryin to cause a debate where there's nothing to debate about.

[RickSp]

Quote by: livvie He was killed by the taliban you fool. Stop tryin to cause a debate where there's nothing to debate about.

You are joking right? Are you really that clueless? Tillman was killed by American "friendly fire" then the Defense Department lied about it. Killed by the taliban? And you are calling people - fool. Wow.

Tillman's Parents Are Critical Of Army

Former NFL player Pat Tillman's family is lashing out against the Army, saying that the military's investigations into Tillman's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan last year were a sham and that Army efforts to cover up the truth have made it harder for them to deal with their loss. More than a year after their son was shot several times by his fellow Army Rangers on a craggy hillside near the Pakistani border, Tillman's mother and father said in interviews that they believe the military and the government created a heroic tale about how their son died to foster a patriotic response across the country. They say the Army's "lies" about what happened have made them suspicious, and that they are certain they will never get the full story. "Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did," Mary Tillman said in her first lengthy interview since her son's death. "The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting."

[righthand]

by: livvie He was killed by the taliban you fool. Stop trying to cause a debate where there's nothing to debate about. RickSp] You are joking right? Are you really that clueless? Tillman was killed by American "friendly fire" then the Defense Department lied about it. Killed by the taliban? And you are calling people - fool. Wow.

I'm sorely tempted to ignore my ban threat and tell livie what I really think of him. I was going to call him an ungrateful cur hardly worthy of citizenship, but decided he was not worth it.

I know using argument and logic is totally lost on him as I'm already into my second sentence and that's further than his up to. For every normal person there is no point as the rest of this does not need saying.

Mocking someones death would not be tolerated in any society civilised or not. This is about as low as it gets. What Pat Tillman gave up to join the army puts him in a league above most selfish people today. The days of "Ask not what you can do for your country" fall on deaf ears in most countries nowadays. So for me, he was a man apart, alive or dead. I would not recommend joining anyone's army, but when he gave up on the 'American Dream', I admired him.

What ironic luck then that he was killed. To be killed my his own side for the sake of a busted Humvee is beyond ironic. It's a tragedy for all and not just his family. There's not much that I believe in outside of my personal experiences. It's hard to justify LUCK, but on the experience of the US army with Pat Tillman, if I was a betting man I'd bet against the US on it's passed luck. I've said it before, maybe they just pray harder.

Do many more in the US believe like this nut. (It's OK, he hasn't read this far.) On at least two posting I have posted details of an excellent cover story by the WP.

rh #100 Please, in memory of Pat Tillman, inform yourself of his last days Barrage of Bullets Drowned Out Cries of Comrades and then you will be in a position to speak. If "friendly fire" just happens and you are accepting of it so readily, then there will be MORE not less cases. And given the army's record for telling LIES, maybe there are far more incidents of this than we know. - PH 05-23-05, 06:14 pm . RH - 08-13-05, 07:44 pm

There's not a lot to be very proud of in the US these days. Jumping on the grave of an exceptional man is as low as it goes. I'll ask again questions not answered.

1. If Senator McCain wasn't on the case would we ever have learnt the details.
2. If the same was happening now in Iraq, would we know.
3. Was there ever any more on the 'flagging' - if that's the word that I remember from Vietnam - where two offices were murdered by an NCO recently.
4. Most important. Did the officer responsible for Pat's death, get away with it?
5. Has Pat Tillman been wiped from the memory as an embarrassment to the mighty C-in-C georgie porgy. The logic being that a dead American soldier is no soldier.

SCUTTERING. The practice of splattering of crap, often containing brain matter, to cover as wide an area as possible. Does this fit anyone of recent arrival, who CONFUSES QUANTITY in the number of postings and QUALITY.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: righthand 'flagging'

I think the term you are reaching for is "fragging". And I think you made up that word "scuttering," heh.

[xshakes]

The old Murphy's law of combat "Friendly fire is never friendly" Having served in the Marine Corp. for 5 yrs. I saw "friendly fire" accidents in peace time training, It's a problem of too many units moving at one time a fluid situation, bad communications and not enough training. It is just a sad thing to have service men die because of a lack of leadership.

[PatrickHenry]

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/...&w=RTR&coview=

The Pentagon's inspector general is reviewing the Army's investigation into the friendly fire death of Army Ranger and former professional football star Pat Tillman in Afghanistan, a defense official said on Monday. The official, who asked not to be identified, confirmed a report in the San Francisco Chronicle that the Army asked for a review of its investigation into the April 22, 2004, incident. The Army determined almost immediately after Tillman's death that he had been killed inadvertently by fellow Rangers in a confused spree of gunfire in a remote canyon near the Pakistani border, according to Army investigators. But Pentagon officials said in June that the investigation found that the Army also kept the fact from his family and the public for weeks and even destroyed evidence. The Army admitted to "procedural misjudgments and mistakes," but rejected criticism by Tillman's parents and denied covering up facts in his death.

[trueheart]

Quote by: Suburbanite CNN "U.S. Army Cpl. Pat Tillman, the former professional football player killed last month in Afghanistan, was probably killed by gunfire from his own unit during an intense firefight, the U.S. Army said Saturday." What does everyone think about this?

Unfortunately in all the wars there are some accidental deaths; some in Iraq and even in World War II have been killed in vehicle accidents. I had an uncle who died this way in an earlier war. Friendly fire affects all military organizations.

But I wonder why they say "probably."

He was a true hero who gave up a great career to serve his country.

[righthand]

Quote by: trueheart Unfortunately in all the wars there are some accidental deaths; some in Iraq and even in World War II have been killed in vehicle accidents. I had an uncle who died this way in an earlier war. Friendly fire affects all military organizations. But I wonder why they say "probably." He was a true hero who gave up a great career to serve his country.

Absolutely. In my book he would be a hero for this even if he had lived. Some think he needed to shed his blood to merit being a true hero.

BUT. there's friend fire and there's 'unfriendly fire'. The first goes with the territory and is probable what you are speaking about.

BUT. The 'unfriendly' friendly fire has two separate types.

1. Is straight forward murder. It was common in the closing years in Vietnam. As PH has reminded me, it was called 'flagging'. It got it's name for the practice of rolling a fragmentation grenade into sleeping officers tents. Unlike in democratic armies, US officers did not sleep with the men then. Flagging was quite common in the latter years. Two officers were flagged in Iraq for sure.

2. If you take the time to read the

rh #100 Please, in memory of Pat Tillman, inform yourself of his last days Barrage of Bullets Drowned Out Cries of Comrades and then you will be in a position to speak.

below you will see in grim detail the events that lead to his death. It all started with a BAD order overruling the officer on the scene. All to save a bust Humvee! That BASTARD has probably being promoted by now, as is standard practice in great US army. The officer who nearly countermanded a superior officer had his career stunted. Read please and then please comment.

[xshakes]

Murphy's Law of combat "Friendly fire is never friendly" Friendly fire incedents happen in peace time. Even under the best conditions. But lying about them and to the family is wrong.
If it was a true friendly fire, it is more of the accident kind, then someone fragging someone else. Bad things happen in combat.

[PatrickHenry]

Turns out that Tillman was a fan of Chomsky and thought the Iraq war was a crock. http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/100705O.shtml

The very private Tillmans have revealed a picture of Pat profoundly at odds with the GI Joe image created by Pentagon spinmeisters and their media stenographers. As the Chronicle put it, family and friends are now unveiling "a side of Pat Tillman not widely known-a fiercely independent thinker who enlisted, fought and died in service to his country yet was critical of President Bush and opposed the war in Iraq, where he served a tour of duty. He was an avid reader whose interests ranged from history books...to works of leftist Noam Chomsky, a favorite author." Tillman had very unembedded feelings about the Iraq War. His close friend Army Spec. Russell Baer remembered, "I can see it like a movie screen. We were outside of [an Iraqi city] watching as bombs were dropping on the town.... We were talking. And Pat said, 'You know, this war is so f***ing illegal.' And we all said, 'Yeah.' That's who he was. He totally was against Bush." With these revelations, Pat Tillman the PR icon joins WMD and Al Qaeda connections on the heap of lies used to sell the Iraq War.

He was more thoughtful and aware than I had assumed. RIP Pat Tillman...

[Scribbler1]

It makes me wonder why he joined in the first place. He may have been a stand up guy and was critical of the war even while honorably serving in it, but by simply being there he, knowingly or not, handed the Iraq war proponents a HUGE PR gift. And they took that gift and played it for every bit of patriotic spin they could, right up to the point where it was admitted that it was our own forces that killed him.

If he was indeed against this war he certainhly didn't give any ammo to those back home who were protesting it. In fact, just the opposite. It was "Look, this brave American joined up and forfeited a lucrative career to do so, so you protesters ought to just shut the hell up!"

[dilligras]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Turns out that Tillman was a fan of Chomsky and thought the Iraq war was a crock. http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/100705O.shtml He was more thoughtful and aware than I had assumed. RIP Pat Tillman...

Before you start your Snoopy dance:

Please spare us the usual lefty propaganda. Quote me no quotes from Air America pinheads like Dave Zirin.

Pat Tillman's status as a hero is not depedent upon his view of the very brief war in Iraq, but rather on his willingness to sacrifice a lucrative career in order to enlist in the service of his country during wartime, as has been repeatedly pointed out in this thread.

That you are now ready to welcome him into the pitiful fold of perverse lefty "patriots" seems to say more about you than he.

If he supports the decisions of President Bush, he is stupid and ignorant and only worthy of your contempt.......but if it turns out that he agreed with your idealogical bent, well, then suddenly his loss is something to be mourned among the ranks of traitors.

It's pretty obvious that your present definition of "hero" includes a rather despicable litmus test for political orientation, and is therefore a bit tainted in my view.

Predictable..........but tainted.

[RickSp]

If one wishes to pay one's respect to the dead, the first requirement is to tell the truth.

The Department of Defense started out by lying, knowingly, consciously lying. Then the right wing started their own chorus, claiming Tillman as their own icon - a selfless, militarist automaton. That too was a lie.

Now the truth finally comes out. Tillman was killed in a failure of communications by "friendly fire." He was a patriot but was also an opponent of the Iraq war, two concepts that the Ann Coulters of this world may find impossible.

Telling the truth is the least we can do to show our respect.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: dilligras If he supports the decisions of President Bush, he is stupid and ignorant and only worthy of your contempt.......but if it turns out that he agreed with your idealogical bent, well, then suddenly his loss is something to be mourned among the ranks of traitors. It's pretty obvious that your present definition of "hero" includes a rather despicable litmus test for political orientation, and is therefore a bit tainted in my view. Predictable..........but tainted.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm a little sick of "righty" propaganda as well. So why don't we cut the bullshit right now and why don't you produce ANYTHING posted on this forum where Tillman was spoken of in those terms. I don't seem to recall any put downs of the man so I would truly appreciate you pointing out where he was trashed by anyone on this forum.

You don't SOUND like you are making this all up, but I am a little skeptical so why not refer to a post of two where people expressed contempt for Pat Tillman.

[dilligras]

Quote by: Scribbler1 I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm a little sick of "righty" propaganda as well. So why don't we cut the bullshit right now and why don't you produce ANYTHING posted on this forum where Tillman was spoken of in those terms. I don't seem to recall any put downs of the man so I would truly appreciate you pointing out where he was trashed by anyone on this forum. You don't SOUND like you are making this all up, but I am a little skeptical so why not refer to a post of two where people expressed contempt for Pat Tillman.

Check posts #12 & #89.........I went back and read the entire thread, something you should try before making spurious allegations of bovine scatology.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: dilligras Check posts #12 & #89.........I went back and read the entire thread, something you should try before making spurious allegations of bovine scatology.

You had to research the entire thread?

#12 is a gray area IMO. I don't see questioning someone's intelligence in an individual situation as contempt, but I can see where you might. I don't think #89 in any way is contemptuous of the individual but of the institution which "suckered" him. A LOT of people are taken in by political ideologues on both sides. Your rant implying those who question the war as being "traitors" seems to put you on the other side of the very same boat.

My own take, which actually has little to do with the war is that Pat Tillman was not a hero, either before or after we found out who really killed him, unless he actually did something heroic.
I have a huge problem with the cheapening of the word "hero" and this is just another example. Just as a firefighter, policeman, soldier etc. you are not a hero until you DO something heroic.
For example, the firefighters who went UP the stairs of the World Trade Center towers to save the lives of hundreds of trapped occupants are heroes. The firefighter out in the sticks whose "firefighting" consists of watching a couple of brush fires a year is not.

[dilligras]

Quote by: RickSp If one wishes to pay one's respect to the dead, the first requirement is to tell the truth.

Horsehocky! There is no requirement to even speak when paying respects to the deceased.........a simple tear running down one's face is sufficient.

As for the truth, clearly you would not recognize it if it fell on you. The proof is in your next statement:

The Department of Defense started out by lying, knowingly, consciously lying.

The truth about a lie is that it requires conscious deception, proving that your statement is either redundant or evidence of a most pathetic ignorance of what constitutes a lie, and by inference, what embodies truth.

Then the right wing started their own chorus, claiming Tillman as their own icon - a selfless, militarist automaton. That too was a lie.

The "right wing" (read "average American") claims Tillman was selfless.......true.

The "right wing" claims Tillman was a Militarist automaton......lie.

See how easy it is?

Telling the truth is the least we can do to show our respect.

We? You got a mouse in yer pocket?